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A possible method for researching the Kyonoke agent

Author
Karmilla Strife
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#21 - 2017-03-07 14:35:55 UTC
Honestly, if the goal is simply to communicate information from within the quarantine to researchers outside, I'm sure there are still plenty of people already within the containment zone. They can communicate outside without breaking quarantine or resorting to outlandish ways to expose more people.
Jack Jomar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2017-03-07 14:48:15 UTC
Karmilla Strife wrote:
Honestly, if the goal is simply to communicate information from within the quarantine to researchers outside, I'm sure there are still plenty of people already within the containment zone. They can communicate outside without breaking quarantine or resorting to outlandish ways to expose more people.


Quite true, but I think the idea to use empyreans stems from wishing to utilise a research staff that is capable of surviving a nasty case of death with a fairly reasonable chance of continuing their studies on a semi-regular (after recovery and review) basis, rather than having team members die, taking their experience(s) with them to the grave.

If a baseliner can provide this information in the short time left to them, then all to the better, and the more data provided, the more likely a solution can be found. But otherwise, while remote drones have their uses, they also have flaws, a solution to which is, I believe, the point to this discussion. At the very least, if it gives us more (and to the point useful) data, then it is worth at least making the attempt (or considering it, at any rate).
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#23 - 2017-03-07 14:49:09 UTC
But can they perform experiments?

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2017-03-07 15:16:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Jack Jomar wrote:
Karmilla Strife wrote:
Honestly, if the goal is simply to communicate information from within the quarantine to researchers outside, I'm sure there are still plenty of people already within the containment zone. They can communicate outside without breaking quarantine or resorting to outlandish ways to expose more people.


Quite true, but I think the idea to use empyreans stems from wishing to utilise a research staff that is capable of surviving a nasty case of death with a fairly reasonable chance of continuing their studies on a semi-regular (after recovery and review) basis, rather than having team members die, taking their experience(s) with them to the grave.

If a baseliner can provide this information in the short time left to them, then all to the better, and the more data provided, the more likely a solution can be found. But otherwise, while remote drones have their uses, they also have flaws, a solution to which is, I believe, the point to this discussion. At the very least, if it gives us more (and to the point useful) data, then it is worth at least making the attempt (or considering it, at any rate).


You forgot the one other advantage of a capsuleer: We are all trained to let go of proprioception and replace it with mind-linked interfaces. That is what allows us to control our starships at will without getting subconsciously confused about the changed body shape.

In this scenario, we can, instead, fashion for ourselves robotic bodies and link to them remotely via capsule hardware by means of a miniature fluid router. All the tech to produce human-like robotic bodies are already there. Quantum computers for processing inputs from capsuleer minds, nanofiber muscles for fluid organic movement (also used for prosthetics), ocular sensors (also used as prosthetics), silicon skin with nanosensor mesh, etc etc etc. Using our training, we should be able to project our consciousness into these bodies without too much of an issue. After all, if we can take to a starship form without getting subconsciously confused about the drastic shape of body shape and size, we should be able to do the same with remotely controlled robotic bodies.

However, I must make a point that all these technologies are also implemented in our current generation of drones. Drones are very capable of organic movement ever since nanofiber muscles and carbon fiber skeletons are used over the traditional hydraulics and pneumatics. Not to mention their sensors are more sensitive than human senses. The issue with drones lies more with their AI rather than their bodies. Ever since the ban on strong AI research, all AI we used are of the weak AI variety, meaning they run on rigid subroutines and are incapable of creative thought. Hence the human involvement. That is why 'remote control' is an option for when human involvement is deemed necessary.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Jack Jomar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2017-03-07 15:33:24 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Jack Jomar wrote:
Karmilla Strife wrote:
Honestly, if the goal is simply to communicate information from within the quarantine to researchers outside, I'm sure there are still plenty of people already within the containment zone. They can communicate outside without breaking quarantine or resorting to outlandish ways to expose more people.


Quite true, but I think the idea to use empyreans stems from wishing to utilise a research staff that is capable of surviving a nasty case of death with a fairly reasonable chance of continuing their studies on a semi-regular (after recovery and review) basis, rather than having team members die, taking their experience(s) with them to the grave.

If a baseliner can provide this information in the short time left to them, then all to the better, and the more data provided, the more likely a solution can be found. But otherwise, while remote drones have their uses, they also have flaws, a solution to which is, I believe, the point to this discussion. At the very least, if it gives us more (and to the point useful) data, then it is worth at least making the attempt (or considering it, at any rate).


You forgot the one other advantage of a capsuleer: We are all trained to let go of proprioception and replace it with mind-linked interfaces. That is what allows us to control our starships at will without getting subconsciously confused about the changed body shape.

In this scenario, we can, instead, fashion for ourselves robotic bodies and link to them remotely via capsule hardware by means of a miniature fluid router. All the tech to produce human-like robotic bodies are already there. Quantum computers for processing inputs from capsuleer minds, nanofiber muscles for fluid organic movement (also used for prosthetics), ocular sensors (also used as prosthetics), silicon skin with nanosensor mesh, etc etc etc. Using our training, we should be able to project our consciousness into these bodies without too much of an issue. After all, if we can take to a starship form without getting subconsciously confused about the drastic shape of body shape and size, we should be able to do the same with remotely controlled robotic bodies.


This is certainly a far better idea.
Though that begs certain logistical questions in regards power and other provisions for the robotic bodies, and also how possible it is to reduce the scale of required controls from starship connections to a pod down to the basics of the robotic body, and whether or not direct connection to a pod is required, or remote connection to a robotic body will work.

Currently, empyreans and clone troopers interface directly with all technology they control.
Even the drones deployed by my own people still rely on a primitive AI rather than direct capsuleer control.
I am afraid I cannot, off the top of my head, recollect any technological situation of directly remote controlling an object in the same manner with which I can currently control a ship or my own body, without being directly connected to it, in the manner we are suggesting.
Everything else, drone, fighter, probe, etc, still relies on AI and programmatic control, which has limits (unless you are doing something considered illegal with AI, which has a history of being a dangerous path to follow).

This is not to say it is not possible, just that I do not have to hand or in memory any situation involving remote control of bodies of any description, by capsuleer or other clone-based user, that was not 'merely' a programmed AI following remotely transmitted instructions, rather than a capsuleer (forgive the use of the word, please) 'wearing' such a robotic body via remote telemetry.

If this can be achieved, however, it certainly is the most ideal solution suggested thus far, and I am interested to be educated on any point which would give more likelihood to the use of this suggestion as a means to investigate the situation at hand.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2017-03-07 15:56:46 UTC
I will assert that power is not an issue. We already have highly efficient radioisotope thermoelectric generators and micro-fusion generators and the shielding to isolate any potential leaks from other sensitive equipment. The issue is that nobody has yet devised the equipment that connects our capsule directly to a drone control transceiver and the supporting computers needed to process our neural link inputs. It will take some time to draft up the blueprints, run some proof-of-concept tests, run prototypes through the proving grounds to identify and work out some issues before deploying these drones into the infected zones. Might take us months to come up with just the proof-of-concept prototypes, and maybe a year or several to fabricate actual practical prototypes and enter the refinement stage.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2017-03-07 16:00:55 UTC
I was thinking more along the lines that a capsuleer can accomplish far more on site and in person than a drone under remote or AI control. Importantly a capsuleer can also give real time feedback on the effects of the pathogen at the time.

As for the memories gathered during the investigation is it possible to compare the backup brain dump with a brain dump from the volunteer and filter out the damage from the rogue prions? Or alternatively is there any way to re-purpose a skill extractor to gather the research information from the capsuleer and then digitize this across into a remote skill injector?

Again this isn't my field of expertise so just throwing out ideas.
Doctor Valate
Delve Medical Services
#28 - 2017-03-07 17:44:08 UTC
Jack Jomar wrote:

This is not to say it is not possible, just that I do not have to hand or in memory any situation involving remote control of bodies of any description, by capsuleer or other clone-based user, that was not 'merely' a programmed AI following remotely transmitted instructions, rather than a capsuleer (forgive the use of the word, please) 'wearing' such a robotic body via remote telemetry.
If this can be achieved, however, it certainly is the most ideal solution suggested thus far, and I am interested to be educated on any point which would give more likelihood to the use of this suggestion as a means to investigate the situation at hand.


This is exactly what the Takmahl Biodroid Controller does. It is what it is for.

Doctor Valerie Valate. Not to be confused with the other Valerie Valate.

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2017-03-08 03:15:01 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
I was thinking more along the lines that a capsuleer can accomplish far more on site and in person than a drone under remote or AI control. Importantly a capsuleer can also give real time feedback on the effects of the pathogen at the time.

As for the memories gathered during the investigation is it possible to compare the backup brain dump with a brain dump from the volunteer and filter out the damage from the rogue prions? Or alternatively is there any way to re-purpose a skill extractor to gather the research information from the capsuleer and then digitize this across into a remote skill injector?

Again this isn't my field of expertise so just throwing out ideas.


A capsuleer 'wearing' a drone body via FTL fluid router connection is practically the same thing as being there in real time, especially considering that there are no latency delays in quantum entanglement communications technology.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Jack Jomar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2017-03-08 08:35:48 UTC
Doctor Valate wrote:
Jack Jomar wrote:

This is not to say it is not possible, just that I do not have to hand or in memory any situation involving remote control of bodies of any description, by capsuleer or other clone-based user, that was not 'merely' a programmed AI following remotely transmitted instructions, rather than a capsuleer (forgive the use of the word, please) 'wearing' such a robotic body via remote telemetry.
If this can be achieved, however, it certainly is the most ideal solution suggested thus far, and I am interested to be educated on any point which would give more likelihood to the use of this suggestion as a means to investigate the situation at hand.


This is exactly what the Takmahl Biodroid Controller does. It is what it is for.


I see - my original understanding of your announcement suggested that it was an autonomous biodroid, rather than one which a capsuleer could (again, please excuse my use of the word in context) 'wear' for the purposes of being present in contaminated areas, without risking their real (or perhaps to be more accurate, current) bodies.
If the TBC technology allows for this to occur, and it is ready for full production and capsuleer use as of this very moment, then this is certainly a suitable time to deploy it, assuming the various governments are willing to do so.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2017-03-08 09:59:50 UTC
Jack Jomar wrote:
Doctor Valate wrote:
Jack Jomar wrote:

This is not to say it is not possible, just that I do not have to hand or in memory any situation involving remote control of bodies of any description, by capsuleer or other clone-based user, that was not 'merely' a programmed AI following remotely transmitted instructions, rather than a capsuleer (forgive the use of the word, please) 'wearing' such a robotic body via remote telemetry.
If this can be achieved, however, it certainly is the most ideal solution suggested thus far, and I am interested to be educated on any point which would give more likelihood to the use of this suggestion as a means to investigate the situation at hand.


This is exactly what the Takmahl Biodroid Controller does. It is what it is for.


I see - my original understanding of your announcement suggested that it was an autonomous biodroid, rather than one which a capsuleer could (again, please excuse my use of the word in context) 'wear' for the purposes of being present in contaminated areas, without risking their real (or perhaps to be more accurate, current) bodies.
If the TBC technology allows for this to occur, and it is ready for full production and capsuleer use as of this very moment, then this is certainly a suitable time to deploy it, assuming the various governments are willing to do so.


Unfortunately, the TBC cyborgs have organic brains and are thus vulnerable to infection themselves.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Jack Jomar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2017-03-08 10:03:19 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Jack Jomar wrote:
Doctor Valate wrote:
Jack Jomar wrote:

This is not to say it is not possible, just that I do not have to hand or in memory any situation involving remote control of bodies of any description, by capsuleer or other clone-based user, that was not 'merely' a programmed AI following remotely transmitted instructions, rather than a capsuleer (forgive the use of the word, please) 'wearing' such a robotic body via remote telemetry.
If this can be achieved, however, it certainly is the most ideal solution suggested thus far, and I am interested to be educated on any point which would give more likelihood to the use of this suggestion as a means to investigate the situation at hand.


This is exactly what the Takmahl Biodroid Controller does. It is what it is for.


I see - my original understanding of your announcement suggested that it was an autonomous biodroid, rather than one which a capsuleer could (again, please excuse my use of the word in context) 'wear' for the purposes of being present in contaminated areas, without risking their real (or perhaps to be more accurate, current) bodies.
If the TBC technology allows for this to occur, and it is ready for full production and capsuleer use as of this very moment, then this is certainly a suitable time to deploy it, assuming the various governments are willing to do so.


Unfortunately, the TBC cyborgs have organic brains and are thus vulnerable to infection themselves.


But as discussed, could the brains not be replaced with suitable additional telemetry systems for remote control instead?
Yuwei Sung
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2017-03-08 11:46:34 UTC
The most difficult part of dealing with a pandemic on the level of lethality as Kyonoke is opening the door and not letting anything out, IMO. In this day and age, the rest is just a matter of resources. People are seeing the wrong problem.

If I were in government and had to approach this (thank the gods i don't though!), what I'd do is get a shortlist drawn up of likely targets the culprits behind this are going to hit next based on any perceivable patterns. population, demographics, industry etc. Then, ship in some advanced remote-operated avatars in the vein people are talking about + whatever research equipment would be needed in advance.

If the right people are smart, this has already happened with the later outbreaks. A situation like this can't be approached purely reactively. Play around with a zone that's already exposed and you're inviting disaster.

However, an even better solution might be to construct a closed facility around the original pit, and then send some (hopefully brainless) humans and tissue samples in on a one-way-trip. (It would have been smarter still to have done that years ago and not in the middle of a crisis, but here we are!)
Myxx
The Scope
#34 - 2017-03-08 16:38:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Myxx
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Myxx wrote:
Rig a traditional drone up for lab work, and when its done go ahead and fly it into the local star.


Doesn't work. An infected drone's a possible retrieval point for people wanting to acquire the contagion, which is, demonstrably, something a few people would have reason to want to get their hands on.

EoM. Sansha's Nation (which apparently already has it). Basically anybody who'd be okay sealing borders and watching population numbers plummet.

It's a big universe. There are definitely people who'd be happier if it were smaller. An infected piece of hardware can't be exposed to potential theft, even briefly.



Another way of disposing it, I suppose, would be to rig a few nuclear, fusion or antimatter charges to it and prime them for remote detonation more like a bomb than standard ammunition. All of the lethality and assured destruction without the kinetic force of a traditional gun behind it. It would assure the destruction of both the drone and the plague infecting it.

It wouldn't even be that expensive. You could use a standard salvage drone for the setup.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#35 - 2017-03-08 16:58:19 UTC
Yuwei Sung wrote:
However, an even better solution might be to construct a closed facility around the original pit, and then send some (hopefully brainless) humans and tissue samples in on a one-way-trip. (It would have been smarter still to have done that years ago and not in the middle of a crisis, but here we are!)


Please don't misinterpret the name "Kyonoke Pit," Ms. Sung. It's an orbital mining facility, not a conventional pit mine. It's been under heavy (and then, after the first breach, heavier) security, and there's been a research program there pretty much the whole time since the original outbreak at the Pit.
Yuwei Sung
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2017-03-08 17:12:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Yuwei Sung
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Please don't misinterpret the name "Kyonoke Pit," Ms. Sung. It's an orbital mining facility, not a conventional pit mine. It's been under heavy (and then, after the first breach, heavier) security, and there's been a research program there pretty much the whole time since the original outbreak at the Pit.


Well, don't I look silly! For some reason I'd always remembered it as the site having been simply sealed up with heavy guard. (Though I did know it wasn't an actual hole in the ground - I'm not quite that stupid, fortunately.)

If samples are already contained and being researched, though, I have to admit I'm a little lost on the point of this discussion.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#37 - 2017-03-08 17:29:34 UTC
Yuwei Sung wrote:
If samples are already contained and being researched, though, I have to admit I'm a little lost on the point of this discussion.


Well-- it's out, now, and, it's planetside in at least one place, and, its characteristics have changed to emphasize contagion over swift death. Either it's mutated (how does a prion-like protein object mutate? It doesn't have DNA! It's just a troublesomely-shaped knot of protein!) or it's been modified, probably purposefully (which, again, is astonishing and scary, because, again, it's not a virus, it's a mass of protein).

(Oooor, so we're told. I'm guessing there are a few things that aren't in the public record, because there are a few possible characteristics that might explain this that telling people about would be so very stupid.)

Anyway, yeah. We're basically stuck in the position of chattering about this because there's really nothing we personally can do. This is mostly a not-capsuleer kind of problem.

So, we're doing what we can: chattering.
Doctor Valate
Delve Medical Services
#38 - 2017-03-08 17:47:20 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Unfortunately, the TBC cyborgs have organic brains and are thus vulnerable to infection themselves.


Yes, however, they are less vulnerable to the infection than humans, and might survive long enough to be useful in the contaminated zone.

It's a matter of attrition. TBC cyborgs are expendable. I'm not meaning that thing you get from holo-movies where some space corporation wants something so badly, that the mission briefing says "Crew Expendable". The TBC cyborgs are literally expendable.

If they succumb to infection after a day, that is not even a failure, because you can just send in the next wave.

Yuwei Sung wrote:
I have to admit I'm a little lost on the point of this discussion.


Biodroids are considered controversial by many governments. (Thanks very much Sansha Kuvakei)
Thusly, biodroid research in most jurisdictions generally does not produce much that could be of use in this kind of situation.

A neighbour's house is on fire. I have a hose. I'm offering to let my neighbour use the hose. If they can handle things without it, fine. The point is that had I not offered, and it turns out that it could have made a difference, well, how could I live with that, hmmmm ?

Doctor Valerie Valate. Not to be confused with the other Valerie Valate.

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2017-03-09 01:23:03 UTC
Jack Jomar wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Jack Jomar wrote:
Doctor Valate wrote:
Jack Jomar wrote:

This is not to say it is not possible, just that I do not have to hand or in memory any situation involving remote control of bodies of any description, by capsuleer or other clone-based user, that was not 'merely' a programmed AI following remotely transmitted instructions, rather than a capsuleer (forgive the use of the word, please) 'wearing' such a robotic body via remote telemetry.
If this can be achieved, however, it certainly is the most ideal solution suggested thus far, and I am interested to be educated on any point which would give more likelihood to the use of this suggestion as a means to investigate the situation at hand.


This is exactly what the Takmahl Biodroid Controller does. It is what it is for.


I see - my original understanding of your announcement suggested that it was an autonomous biodroid, rather than one which a capsuleer could (again, please excuse my use of the word in context) 'wear' for the purposes of being present in contaminated areas, without risking their real (or perhaps to be more accurate, current) bodies.
If the TBC technology allows for this to occur, and it is ready for full production and capsuleer use as of this very moment, then this is certainly a suitable time to deploy it, assuming the various governments are willing to do so.


Unfortunately, the TBC cyborgs have organic brains and are thus vulnerable to infection themselves.


But as discussed, could the brains not be replaced with suitable additional telemetry systems for remote control instead?


Yes, but trying to replace entire nervous systems with telemetry systems and quantum brains and getting them to interact with the rest of the organic body is significantly trickier than just building an entire artificial polymer-and-carbon-fibre body. I say it's probably far easier to just build said body instead.

The trickiest part, however, is to create a telemetry system that is connected to but exists outside of the capsule to allow the capsuleer inside to connect to the robotic body, and the writing of the software that enables that. If the TBC cyborg control system includes such a telemetry system, reverse engineering that will shorten development time drastically.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2017-03-09 12:07:00 UTC
And all of the above takes a lot longer than a CONCORD controlled effort with volunteer Capsuleers going in with backup brain scans to recover from. If biodroids are too contentious then capsuleer meat puppets may be the next best option.

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