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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#121 - 2017-03-07 17:22:12 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
He talked about increasing opportunities to aggress gankers not looters, bumpers or scouts. Those toons usually have positive sec status and profit from the same CONCORD "protection" the freighter or miner did.


Then this?

Ima Wreckyou wrote:

We are almost all operating at -10, so you can shoot us on sight not sure how much more opportunity than always is required for you.


Is absolutely meaningless as an argument. Just a red herring for the foxes to chase, or does a point remain?

Maybe I'm not writing really clear today.

The point was about our gank chars which are -10 and what more of an opportunity there could be to aggress us if we can already be aggressed by anyone without CONCORD intervention.

Obviously we have many out of alliances alts which have a positive sec status and benefit from CONCORD. I did not mean those characters since they are not called "gankers" usually.

Hope that made it clear.

Evil RatKid
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#122 - 2017-03-07 17:23:17 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
but the issue is always when using such mechanics that it gives you such an advantage that it is insurmountable for realistic counter play, which is the happy place you lot are in. You of course want your cake and you gorge yourself on it, fair enough.
Not sure what you are actually talking about here. Can you explain what cake you mean?

Dracvlad wrote:
We all know the loot trick you pull with DST's but does CCP have any other choice in terms of the corp or fleet hanger capability, not at all, anyway cry nerf on anything, it is what you do...

And what do you expect will happen if they change the DST?

Evil RatKid
Amojin
Doomheim
#123 - 2017-03-07 17:30:04 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Hope that made it clear.


It does. Your main glory toons have very bad ratings, which is its own currency, in your world. You abuse game mechanics, which normally I would say is just fine. They're not racist, but just code, completely impartial constructs that govern us all.

Fine. But you are meta-gaming, using alts as you do for the purposes at hand. I'm very sure that the profits those alts generate returns to your main, so in this case, yes, you would, in many cases, be considered cheating thugs. If you took all your risks, and made all your profit on your main toon, I would say this is fine, and in game. But alts?

I would ban you if you tried this crap on my MUSH back in the day, but this is not that, and CCP apparently allows this.
Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#124 - 2017-03-07 17:37:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Bjorn Tyrson
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
If you call that whining, ok, I'm fine with that.

So far youve only whined in one liners.

This is the longest and most honest post Ive ever seen from you.
Prove your point, here, now.

What would you want changed in EVE towards your vision of how it should be?

PS: "Nothing" is not a valid or honest answer. All of us want change, one way or another, particularly towards our own bias.

I'm ok with every change which actually brings content, more stuff to build, more stuff to shoot. Also all changes which bring conflict drivers and allow for more conflict in general.

I'm against all changes which isolate players from each other and dis-incentivize conflict.

Pretty obvious.


So you would be ok with changes which increase opportunity to aggress gankers in HS?


Yes, turn HS into low-sec :D

in seriousness though, you can gank gankers, quite easily, and could even make a decent profit on it.

as was mentioned earlier, a t2 catalyst can easily drop between 2 and 5 mil in loot, as they are fitted for pure gank. which also makes them paper thin, thin enough that you wouldn't need nearly the kind of dps that they do in order to pop them.

so you fit out your own "counter gank" ship, well you can easily fit out a t1 catalyst for about 2-3mil, which will have more than enough dps to pop theirs before concord arrives. hell you might even be able to pop 2 or 3 of them if you are fast.

have an alt on standby to scoop the loot, both from their ships and from yours, and you will at minimum break even, or depending on how many of them you can catch could potentially double or even tripple what you spent assuming the loot fairy is nice.

"oh but they fly in big groups"... well yeah... eve is an MMO, get some friends together and wreck their camp. since you could potentially pop more than 1 of them before you go down yourself you wouldn't even need as many people.

Edit: just ran the numbers, a counter-gankalyst could take down a gankalyst in under 10 seconds, since concord is likely to be pulled off grid by the gankers to buy themselves more time you can take advantage of that. the counter-gankalyst costs under 2 mil, even with rigs, and would allow you to take out at least 1 of their ships before concord responds (assuming they even do pop you since you could get lucky and catch them flagged.) so for 2 mil isk, you can do 10+mil worth of damage, and likely recover the entire cost of your ship.... sure its not as good a profit margin as the gankers go for. but the point is that there IS counter-play.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#125 - 2017-03-07 17:42:48 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Hope that made it clear.


It does. Your main glory toons have very bad ratings, which is its own currency, in your world. You abuse game mechanics, which normally I would say is just fine. They're not racist, but just code, completely impartial constructs that govern us all.

Fine. But you are meta-gaming, using alts as you do for the purposes at hand. I'm very sure that the profits those alts generate returns to your main, so in this case, yes, you would, in many cases, be considered cheating thugs. If you took all your risks, and made all your profit on your main toon, I would say this is fine, and in game. But alts?

I would ban you if you tried this crap on my MUSH back in the day, but this is not that, and CCP apparently allows this.

I would not call multiboxing meta-gaming. Multiboxing is an essential part of the game. Also the exact same thing would still be possible if the scout, bumper and looter where different players. But the question is how interesting would that be to play only one of those roles?

I agree that it would be a very different game if this was not allowed. But it is what it is and I think it makes the game more interesting the way it is. Maybe I'm wrong.

Evil RatKid
Amojin
Doomheim
#126 - 2017-03-07 17:45:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Amojin
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Hope that made it clear.


It does. Your main glory toons have very bad ratings, which is its own currency, in your world. You abuse game mechanics, which normally I would say is just fine. They're not racist, but just code, completely impartial constructs that govern us all.

Fine. But you are meta-gaming, using alts as you do for the purposes at hand. I'm very sure that the profits those alts generate returns to your main, so in this case, yes, you would, in many cases, be considered cheating thugs. If you took all your risks, and made all your profit on your main toon, I would say this is fine, and in game. But alts?

I would ban you if you tried this crap on my MUSH back in the day, but this is not that, and CCP apparently allows this.

I would not call multiboxing meta-gaming. Multiboxing is an essential part of the game. Also the exact same thing would still be possible if the scout, bumper and looter where different players. But the question is how interesting would that be to play only one of those roles?

I agree that it would be a very different game if this was not allowed. But it is what it is and I think it makes the game more interesting the way it is. Maybe I'm wrong.


Well, multi-boxing is the very definition of meta-gaming. We tracked your IP's. You get one toon.

Profit motive, on CCP's part, is in your favor. We were free.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#127 - 2017-03-07 17:51:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Amojin wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Hope that made it clear.


It does. Your main glory toons have very bad ratings, which is its own currency, in your world. You abuse game mechanics, which normally I would say is just fine. They're not racist, but just code, completely impartial constructs that govern us all.

Fine. But you are meta-gaming, using alts as you do for the purposes at hand. I'm very sure that the profits those alts generate returns to your main, so in this case, yes, you would, in many cases, be considered cheating thugs. If you took all your risks, and made all your profit on your main toon, I would say this is fine, and in game. But alts?

I would ban you if you tried this crap on my MUSH back in the day, but this is not that, and CCP apparently allows this.

I would not call multiboxing meta-gaming. Multiboxing is an essential part of the game. Also the exact same thing would still be possible if the scout, bumper and looter where different players. But the question is how interesting would that be to play only one of those roles?

I agree that it would be a very different game if this was not allowed. But it is what it is and I think it makes the game more interesting the way it is. Maybe I'm wrong.


Well, milti-boxing is the very definition of meta-gaming. We tracked your IP's. You get one toon.

Profit motive, on CCP's part, is in your favor. We were free.

IP tracking doesn't work.

Nerfing the ability to multi box would hurt the high end gank target more than it would hurt the gankers. It would remove the ability to use a webbing alt or scout, and would eliminate the possibility of having an exit cyno for jump freighters.

This is not something anyone wants. Multiboxing is fine.
Amojin
Doomheim
#128 - 2017-03-07 17:54:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Amojin
Scipio Artelius wrote:
IP tracking doesn't work.

Nerfing the ability to multi box would hurt the high end gank target more than it would hurt the gankers. It would remove the ability to use a webbing alt or scout, and would eliminate the possibility of having an exit cyno for jump freighters.

This is not something anyone wants. Multiboxing is fine.


It was a different time 10-15 years ago. It didn't always work, but it was good enough. My point is that we had no motive, making money, to allow this sort of garbage to go on, so we didn't.

If you wanted to play, we made you play fair, or banned you. You're right, this is a different world.
Salvos Rhoska
#129 - 2017-03-07 17:55:48 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
So you would be ok with changes which increase opportunity to aggress gankers in HS?

We are almost all operating at -10, so you can shoot us on sight not sure how much more opportunity than always is required for you.

"Almost all".
+What about the pointers, scanners, loot haulers, and incubating Alpha gank toons?

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Salvos Rhoska
#130 - 2017-03-07 18:00:54 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:

Nerfing the ability to multi box would hurt...

Nvm, you fixed it from "beefing".

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#131 - 2017-03-07 18:03:53 UTC
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
in seriousness though, you can gank gankers, quite easily, and could even make a decent profit on it.

as was mentioned earlier, a t2 catalyst can easily drop between 2 and 5 mil in loot, as they are fitted for pure gank. which also makes them paper thin, thin enough that you wouldn't need nearly the kind of dps that they do in order to pop them.
There's always the bounty too, every little helps.

Quote:
so you fit out your own "counter gank" ship, well you can easily fit out a t1 catalyst for about 2-3mil, which will have more than enough dps to pop theirs before concord arrives. hell you might even be able to pop 2 or 3 of them if you are fast.

have an alt on standby to scoop the loot, both from their ships and from yours, and you will at minimum break even, or depending on how many of them you can catch could potentially double or even tripple what you spent assuming the loot fairy is nice.
Set an overview tab to show only outlaws and criminals, it should minimise the chance of accidental Concordokken related incidents; thus keeping your ship, and the loot.

Quote:
"oh but they fly in big groups"... well yeah... eve is an MMO, get some friends together and wreck their camp. since you could potentially pop more than 1 of them before you go down yourself you wouldn't even need as many people.
We keep telling people this, many are lazy and want NPC's to do it for them.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#132 - 2017-03-07 18:07:51 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
So you would be ok with changes which increase opportunity to aggress gankers in HS?

We are almost all operating at -10, so you can shoot us on sight not sure how much more opportunity than always is required for you.

"Almost all".
+What about the pointers, scanners, loot haulers, and incubating Alpha gank toons?

Is this a buid up for your 'make cargo scanning a suspect offense'-idea?

Evil RatKid
Salvos Rhoska
#133 - 2017-03-07 18:09:35 UTC
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:

in seriousness though, you can gank gankers, quite easily, and could even make a decent profit on it.

so you fit out your own "counter gank" ship, well you can easily fit out a t1 catalyst for about 2-3mil, which will have more than enough dps to pop theirs before concord arrives.


So you are seriously suggesting a 0-2mil profit +time to locate + hauler for whatever might drop, is worth it?

You consider that "decent profit"?

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Amojin
Doomheim
#134 - 2017-03-07 18:15:12 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:

in seriousness though, you can gank gankers, quite easily, and could even make a decent profit on it.

so you fit out your own "counter gank" ship, well you can easily fit out a t1 catalyst for about 2-3mil, which will have more than enough dps to pop theirs before concord arrives.


So you are seriously suggesting a 0-2mil profit +time to locate + hauler for whatever might drop, is worth it?

You consider that "decent profit"?


Now you know why this place is good for what the psycho-babble practitioners call transference... It takes all of about 30 seconds to find something that irritates you.

Here, have a timeout - he's my favorite of any of them. It's pretty relaxing, I actually have it on my address bar. Twisted

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjvYiSDJujA
Salvos Rhoska
#135 - 2017-03-07 18:15:33 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
So you would be ok with changes which increase opportunity to aggress gankers in HS?

We are almost all operating at -10, so you can shoot us on sight not sure how much more opportunity than always is required for you.

"Almost all".
+What about the pointers, scanners, loot haulers, and incubating Alpha gank toons?

Is this a buid up for your 'make cargo scanning a suspect offense'-idea?


Yes. Although a limited engagement timer will also do.

Just as much as your answer avoided my question.
So I took advantage. Cant blame me for that, right?

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#136 - 2017-03-07 18:17:06 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Set an overview tab to show only outlaws and criminals, it should minimise the chance of accidental Concordokken related incidents; thus keeping your ship, and the loot.

These days you can also just set safety to green or yellow. You'll still be able to engage outlaws before they turn criminal even with green safety and since ganker loot is blue to everyone, there is no problem scooping it either.

Having safety set red can lead to embarrassment, like forgetting to dual your freighter alt while webbing. So safety to yellow or green in highsec is the most assured way of avoiding accidental Concordekken.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#137 - 2017-03-07 18:27:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Ima Wreckyou
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Yes. Although a limited engagement timer will also do.

Just as much as your answer avoided my question.
So I took advantage. Cant blame me for that, right?

It's ok, it was pretty obvious. I'm in favour of the limited engagement timer.

Evil RatKid
Salvos Rhoska
#138 - 2017-03-07 18:28:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Just read back through the thread to OP

Goddam we have rekt the hell out of it, although there have been interesting points raised and argued.

To return to topic, Aaron, if you set this up, I will contribute what I know to the chat to help others.
I think your idea is good, and is worth a shot.

Its been done before, and fallen into obscurity, but perhaps you can make its potential real and persistent.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#139 - 2017-03-07 18:30:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:

in seriousness though, you can gank gankers, quite easily, and could even make a decent profit on it.

so you fit out your own "counter gank" ship, well you can easily fit out a t1 catalyst for about 2-3mil, which will have more than enough dps to pop theirs before concord arrives.


So you are seriously suggesting a 0-2mil profit +time to locate + hauler for whatever might drop, is worth it?

You consider that "decent profit"?

If you're just looking at solo gankers, it wouldn't be worth it.

If instead you look for gank fleets on freighters, then the profit increases. Take this kill for example:

https://zkillboard.com/kill/60545494/

24 attackers total, including 9 bombers that drop 10-15 million each. If you are quick enough, there's up to 130 million in loot. Drop an MTU and salvage the T2 ships for a bit more (no real idea though on how much that would add).

You won't get all of the loot, as the gankers will also be recovering it, but hanging around busy systems could turn a good amount of ISK if you are careful not to be ganked also.
Amojin
Doomheim
#140 - 2017-03-07 18:32:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Amojin
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
It's ok, it was pretty obvious. I'm in favour of the limited engagement timer.


I'm sure you are. Because it's meaningless. You will continue to carry on doing what you do with disposable alts. The limited engagement timer is completely in your favor, so of course you're in favor of it.

When you have a throw away toon, everything is in your favor. The experience of linear time lends itself to a logical progression of action, leading to consequences. However, when you can create throwaway people, you can completely divorce yourself, your main, in this case, from any consequences, while experiencing the benefits of all the risky and evil actions the alts take.