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CCPlease, Make the Corax Great...for once.
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Thayden Reid Nordic
Know-Nothings
Boatload of Destruction
#1 - 2017-03-05 02:49:32 UTC
I'm reposting this here, since I originally posted it in the wrong forum. Hopefully I can have the original, misplaced post removed.

Honestly, just give us some Trait bonuses that are worthwhile for the ship.

The Kinetic Locked damage bonus isn't worth a damn for most PvP situations, given that most PvP ships in low/null have an Explosive hole (win Talwar). A straight damage bonus across the board would be far more useful and give the ship some MUCH needed versatility. Hell, a range bonus or a resist bonus would even be great. The tank for this ship is already gimped by the fact that you can't actually fit a full tank, and need to use fitting rigs or modules to make just about any decent fit work.

(210tf CPU & 48MW PG vs 180tf CPU & 45MW PG for the Kestrel with the SAME number of mid and low slots - Really?)

The only viable use for the Corax is sitting inside of a FW Plex at zero with rockets and hoping that whatever comes in doesn't have strong Kinetic resists (good luck) and doesn't get outside the range of your scram/web. It's simply too slow (235m/s base velocity) to maintain range control once anything gets outside of that. And the LML Corax (something that you'd think it'd be best suited for) is right out, given that the Talwar surpasses it in pretty much every way.

In all, it needs a good bit of love. For a ship that comes from the faction best known for Shields and Missiles, with the mantra "I don't need to be fast, I can hit you from here!" it sure isn't living up to expectations, right now. It's, basically, the successor to the Kestrel, so you'd think it'd be a good precursor to the Caracal, but NOPE. Don't get me wrong, it's a good ship for a newbie mission runner (I used the **** out of it when I started, 4 years ago), but it is quickly outclassed there, as well.

Plus...it's just such a pity to see such a beautiful ship reduced to less than mediocrity.

CCPlease,
#SavetheSpaceUBoat

*NOTE*
Yes, I know battleships need a rebalance, across the board, along with other ships/classes. I'm not saying, "DO THIS RIGHT NOW!!!!" I'm just politely requesting that CCP address the issues with the Corax, as well. With that said, please try to stick to the topic of the thread (i.e. Fixing the lovely Corax)
Amojin
Doomheim
#2 - 2017-03-05 03:08:39 UTC
It occurs to me that Gallente, at least those that are heavily skilled into drones instead of hybrids, have exactly what you want, selectable damage that is ALL bonused across our drone boats.

However, if you want this, for Caldari, you should have to do like we do. We have to take a specialization and raise it to 4, preferably 5, for every damage type we want to use T2 drones in, and that's all of them, of course.

Would you be willing, just as an exercise in what if, to train for Nova missile specialization, then Mjolnir, etc, etc, at the same rate we have to?

You can repost your old reply to this, and off we'll go. I'll even try to stay on topic.
Ajem Hinken
WarFear Gaming
#3 - 2017-03-05 03:14:35 UTC
Amojin wrote:
It occurs to me that Gallente, at least those that are heavily skilled into drones instead of hybrids, have exactly what you want, selectable damage that is ALL bonused across our drone boats.

However, if you want this, for Caldari, you should have to do like we do. We have to take a specialization and raise it to 4, preferably 5, for every damage type we want to use T2 drones in, and that's all of them, of course.

Would you be willing, just as an exercise in what if, to train for Nova missile specialization, then Mjolnir, etc, etc, at the same rate we have to?

You can repost your old reply to this, and off we'll go. I'll even try to stay on topic.

Us Caldies can't use T2 drones as alpha's. Nor do we have good missiles. We've got blasters and railguns.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6875494#post6875494 - Ship mounted explosives. Because explosions and Jita chaos.
Amojin
Doomheim
#4 - 2017-03-05 03:15:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Amojin
I'm fairly certain we can't use T2 drones as alpha, either. I didn't know this was an alpha-specific complaint.

In his initial reply, thread now closed at his request, he stated that our specialization was like his moving from small guns, to medium guns, etc, etc. It's our progression. To put it simply, I find that reasoning flawed.

In L1 missions, we have ships that let us fit light drones, our ships limiting us by both bandwidth and drone bay size. As you progress, you move up to medium drones in L2/L3 - you are expected to use Heavy and Sentries in L3/4. That is our progression, comparable to weapons.

Our specialization in every racial drone type is a rather hefty added cost in training time, and we don't even get our racial drone spec for free. We pay for that, instead of starting with one, unlike caldari ships.
Thayden Reid Nordic
Know-Nothings
Boatload of Destruction
#5 - 2017-03-05 03:29:50 UTC
Amojin wrote:
It occurs to me that Gallente, at least those that are heavily skilled into drones instead of hybrids, have exactly what you want, selectable damage that is ALL bonused across our drone boats.

However, if you want this, for Caldari, you should have to do like we do. We have to take a specialization and raise it to 4, preferably 5, for every damage type we want to use T2 drones in, and that's all of them, of course.

Would you be willing, just as an exercise in what if, to train for Nova missile specialization, then Mjolnir, etc, etc, at the same rate we have to?

You can repost your old reply to this, and off we'll go. I'll even try to stay on topic.


Your proposal is a tricky one, since drones are a weapons system, like any turret or launcher. There is also the implication that your proposal would require similar training requirements for Autocannons and Artillery, since they can also choose which damage to apply.

There is also the fact that you need Caldari Drone Specialization to use T2 Caldari drones (heavy, medium, and light) in the same fashion that you need Rocket Specialization in order to use T2 Rockets (Mjolnir, Scourge, etc). Would you like to additionally train into T2 Light, Medium, and Heavy drones, respectively, for each faction?

How messy do you want this to get instead of fixing the issues with the Corax?
Amojin
Doomheim
#6 - 2017-03-05 03:34:24 UTC
You got lucky with the Kestrel. They threw you a bone while you were a new player. In a frigate with a relatively weak tank, sure, neat. In a destroyer, with even more launchers?

I just don't think every caldari ship should just have a flat bonus to missiles. You're right about the flat bonus to minmatar projectile damage, though. See? It appears that we Gallente are really the only ones getting shafted. You get every type, and one free bonus, typically. The minmatar just flat get it, and we pay. Kinda messed up, really.
Thayden Reid Nordic
Know-Nothings
Boatload of Destruction
#7 - 2017-03-05 03:45:30 UTC
Amojin wrote:
You got lucky with the Kestrel. They threw you a bone while you were a new player. In a frigate with a relatively weak tank, sure, neat. In a destroyer, with even more launchers?

I just don't think every caldari ship should just have a flat bonus to missiles. You're right about the flat bonus to minmatar projectile damage, though. See? It appears that we Gallente are really the only ones getting shafted. You get every type, and one free bonus, typically. The minmatar just flat get it, and we pay. Kinda messed up, really.


Bud, the Gallente get to use two of the best weapons systems in the game: drones, which don't require any form or ammunition, and work as long as you have them, and hybrids, the highest damage guns in the game. Gallente ships can also be armor, hull, or even shield tanked, depending on what you're going for. Gallente is NOT getting shafted.

And anyone who uses Destroyers knows that they all could use a buff, but none more than the Corax; it's not even on par with the rest of its class.
Amojin
Doomheim
#8 - 2017-03-05 03:49:23 UTC
I can't believe you let me get away with that! Big smile

Our drone bonus is exactly the same as the minmatar bonus. We can use any T1 drone w/o spec, so we're effectively bonused for every damage type, just like they are.

Yeah, you have a point; I'm done giving you too hard a time over it. It's just that, who the hell uses a destroyer? I mean, seriously?

It's like the worst of both worlds, you're bigger than a frig, slower, and still weakly tanked, sitting between frigs and cruisers is, to me at least, a no man's land to be bypassed at once. Should they, really, devote a lot more time to fixing what most won't use for more than a few days?
Wanda Fayne
#9 - 2017-03-05 05:28:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Wanda Fayne
Coercer is locked to EM/Therm, Catalyst is Kin/Therm, Talwar is Explo. So racial preference is across the board.
I would agree to adding one to the damage bonus (+therm) for dual damage like its counterparts. Talwar too.
Don't discount the 10%/lvl explosion velocity bonus. This ship has great application against small/fast targets.

All of these destroyers have tight PG/CPU, and that fits with the 'glass cannon' nature of destroyers. Try fitting a T2 beam Coercer with a mwd, for example.

The Talwar is a strong ship, probably the best ship in this group. But in my opinion the Corax is not in a bad place. I just hate the idea of making ships vanilla...

"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
Thayden Reid Nordic
Know-Nothings
Boatload of Destruction
#10 - 2017-03-05 06:15:46 UTC
Wanda Fayne wrote:
Coercer is locked to EM/Therm, Catalyst is Kin/Therm, Talwar is Explo. So racial preference is across the board.
I would agree to adding one to the damage bonus (+therm) for dual damage like its counterparts. Talwar too.
Don't discount the 10%/lvl explosion velocity bonus. This ship has great application against small/fast targets.

All of these destroyers have tight PG/CPU, and that fits with the 'glass cannon' nature of destroyers. Try fitting a T2 beam Coercer with a mwd, for example.

The Talwar is a strong ship, probably the best ship in this group. But in my opinion the Corax is not in a bad place. I just hate the idea of making ships vanilla...


Coercer and Catalyst both put out heaps of damage, to the point that damned near anything that enters a plex with them and isn't careful gets nuked damned near immediately. They are also locked into their respective damage profiles by the nature of their weapons systems. The Coercer, Catalyst, Cormorant, and Thrasher are the definitions of glass canons, their slot layouts show this. But the Algos, Dragoon, Talwar, and Corax are meant to be more versatile than the other four.

You say the Corax isn't in a bad place, butt it's certainly not in a good place. There literally isn't a role it can fill that isn't done better than something else.

Honestly, all four of the newer destroyers could use a once-over. Outside of Small Plexes, they don't usually have much of a use. Usually, when folks think of using these destroyers in particular, they are persuaded to fly a frigate or cruiser, instead.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2017-03-05 11:24:01 UTC
Talwars definitely had their stay there for a bit. Not sure if they're still decent, but they definitely had their day for a bit. Algos is still fairly viable for it's drones. Saying all the 'new' destroyers are lackluster is a little generalized.


As per EVERYTHING cruiser and below, they are suffering more from T3D's than anything else.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2017-03-05 11:36:09 UTC
The corax has literally never been good at anything, with the exception of looking like a u-boat. It's not suffering from t3ds, it was worthless before they came in.

The best option is probably to just delete the thing and use the hull for the nemesis, to be honest.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#13 - 2017-03-05 15:59:33 UTC
Amojin wrote:

However, if you want this, for Caldari, you should have to do like we do. We have to take a specialization and raise it to 4, preferably 5, for every damage type we want to use T2 drones in, and that's all of them, of course.




why?


for one drones do more damage and are harder to counter two other races do not have their missile boats damaged locked

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Amojin
Doomheim
#14 - 2017-03-05 16:25:47 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

why?


To see if he knew the difference between a self-sealing stem bolt and a reverse-ratcheting routing planer?
mkint
#15 - 2017-03-05 17:20:14 UTC  |  Edited by: mkint
I deal with rookies mostly in game. I always feel bad for any that picked Caldari because I know they are going to struggle more than anyone else to finish the epic arc. I can always help rookies put together a catalyst loadout that makes dagan die super easy, but if they are caldari? Especially if they're invested into missiles? All I can really tell them is to get someone else to do it for them. I don't know what the solution is, but I think there needs to be some kind of DPS buff, maybe some tweaks to range.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2017-03-05 21:31:40 UTC
mkint wrote:
I deal with rookies mostly in game. I always feel bad for any that picked Caldari because I know they are going to struggle more than anyone else to finish the epic arc. I can always help rookies put together a catalyst loadout that makes dagan die super easy, but if they are caldari? Especially if they're invested into missiles? All I can really tell them is to get someone else to do it for them. I don't know what the solution is, but I think there needs to be some kind of DPS buff, maybe some tweaks to range.



A cormorant can't do the same thing? Especially that ridiculous railrax that it's out to like, 5 systems away?






Also @Danika, not saying the Corax has ever been superb at anything.... just that it was generalized to say all the newer dessies sucked and had no role, especially while overlooking the real problem which is T3D's.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
James Zimmer
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2017-03-05 23:59:30 UTC
Amojin wrote:
...who the hell uses a destroyer? I mean, seriously?

It's like the worst of both worlds, you're bigger than a frig, slower, and still weakly tanked, sitting between frigs and cruisers is, to me at least, a no man's land to be bypassed at once. Should they, really, devote a lot more time to fixing what most won't use for more than a few days?


I do Big smile They're super-cheap, fast locking, and can get some pretty awesome DPS (look at a heated beam Coercer if you want an example) at just enough range to sit at 0 on a gate and zap whoever goes through, and if you die, it was just a destroyer..
mkint
#18 - 2017-03-06 03:45:36 UTC  |  Edited by: mkint
Kenrailae wrote:
mkint wrote:
I deal with rookies mostly in game. I always feel bad for any that picked Caldari because I know they are going to struggle more than anyone else to finish the epic arc. I can always help rookies put together a catalyst loadout that makes dagan die super easy, but if they are caldari? Especially if they're invested into missiles? All I can really tell them is to get someone else to do it for them. I don't know what the solution is, but I think there needs to be some kind of DPS buff, maybe some tweaks to range.



A cormorant can't do the same thing? Especially that ridiculous railrax that it's out to like, 5 systems away?



I'd have to check the numbers again, but I believe the corm has bonuses to range rather than damage, plus being short low slots puts it about 1/3 less DPS than a similar fit catalyst. At those short ranges the range bonus doesn't do you any good either. Maybe I've just been playing Gallente for too long but I always lean towards getting the most DPS I can get at a given range.

as far as the corax vs algos, I think the corax has roughly half the DPS and a much smaller kill radius. Might as well fly an ibis.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#19 - 2017-03-06 04:06:26 UTC
mkint wrote:
as far as the corax vs algos, I think the corax has roughly half the DPS and a much smaller kill radius. Might as well fly an ibis.



not only that but the corax is generally limited to using Faction ammo rather than any T-2 even rockets you have a hard time applying rage to even webbed frigs

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Cristl
#20 - 2017-03-06 05:19:10 UTC
The Corax is definitely in with a shout for 'crappiest T1 ship'.
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