Player Features and Ideas Discussion

This is the key point.
The people who keep saying attribute implants/attributes themselves should remain tend to be very old vets well past this mark on their mains.
The younger someone is the stronger they are impacted by the negatives involved, and that isn't a good thing when Vets can leverage things like remaps better since they can just leave the alt training on one track for 6 months while it's unusable, while the real newer player has to train balanced and can't afford to risk implants either.

Yes EVE isn't an SP game, but there is no great advantage to having the 'sit in station and do nothing' behaviour rewarded over people who are out there doing things, and at the end of the day that is what the entire attribute system actually does.

Obviously no changes to jump clone needed on this front though, a different solution of removing attributes is the right one, then jump clones become about which implants you want for in space today, and people use cheap sets (like those low grade empire sets that boost sensor strength, hmm......) when being casual, empty clones when being super risky, or expensive sets when appropriate.

Again, go to Perimeter - ☆☆ IChooseYou Market set up a PvP clone with no implants. Keep your training clone there. Jump back and forth all day with no timers at all.

Just not seeing the big issue here. And another upshot, you are 1 jump from Jita, the largest market in game.

In Part Nevyn.


Older players also know what they are building a character for, so don't have to deal with the constant sidetracking, changing directions, bit of this, bit of that, that new players do. We also don't train to just 1's and 2's, but build alts to be optimized for their role. Another, IMO larger, part of the issue is the lack of focus new players have, because they're told to train this, read they should train that, see those and want to fly them, etc etc. I remember making those mistakes, and know a guy right now, sub 15m sp, who can fly cal, gal, and amarr bs, next door to a tengu, talos, mine, build, and so on. Course, those are all just pre-req's and whatever L1 or L2 skill is needed to sit those ships. Where in all that do Core skills go?


Now, yes, all of this goes with lending credence to the removing attributes argument, but even when you do that, the problem is going to remain. Removing attributes is a step in the right direction, but it needs to go a bit further than that and be accompanied by further refinement of the NPE focusing on a 'yes you CAN train anything, but you also need to train what you do train well' shift. I don't think training implants are inherently bad, but they are definitely made worse by the attributes. Changing them from being +x to this attribute to +Y Sp/hr with the removal of attributes may be a viable middle ground.

I agree with the first part of that. Encouraging them to do an initial specialisation is important. But even then it would need them to train a bunch of different attribute maps, so even without all that jumping around attributes still hammer them.

I'll agree to disagree on +y sp/hr implants being a good thing, because I still see it as a pay wall, and one that stops them using implants that actually benefit their ship as well. But you are right that it is a middle ground if CCP are too worried about the impact on the LP market to actually remove them, and allows for removing the worst part of the problem (the attributes themselves)

You don't???



rrrrr..... well, this is awkward.....

Take a step back with me and imagine for a second how many more people there are who have abstained from hitting "Undock" for fear of losing 100m-500m isk and some measure of sp/hr just like our op here.

The solution isn't to remove them. They're a great isk sink, fun to kill, and fit in with EvE's wealth=power theme.
As many have said in here, citadels are the counter. You don't have to wait 24 hours, because you can use a freeport to switch freely between clones.
Everyone should have a cheap clone whether it's in a citadel or not. It should be and is common practice.

CCP has done more than enough in providing us with the ability to quickly hop clones without penalty in citadels and create jump clones in any station without grinding up rep.
It's on us to instruct others to protect their clones' implants with liberal use of jump clones, and I plan on doing that this week with an artillery thrasher.

OK, So I've been reading the link about Upwell Structures posted earlier. I don't mind admitting I didn't know about that, and having read it I still don't really get it. It''s likely that most EVE players don't know any of this either. I'll try and explain my thoughts, and hopefully you won't just fling insults back...

the link again: https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/209985225-Upwell-Structures-Quick-Facts

I'm assuming these things are Citadels, it doesn't actually say and I don't see how I'm supposed to know that. I don't know if all Citadels are Upwell, or if all Upwell are Citadels.

My experience of Citadels is in 0.0 and I've learnt they are dangerous, with odd tethering mechanics so I never really know what I'm dealing with and end up avoiding them altogether.

I don't know why they're even allowed in high sec. I'd be very worried about putting my stuff in someone else's structure. I've heard about people losing stuff and clones because of that.

The notes about cloning are:

Cloning Service

- The cost of installing a jump clones is set by the structure's owner.
- Jump clones and their implants are lost when a structure is destroyed or unanchored.
- If you jump clone to a clone you have at the Upwell structure you are currently located in, then you receive no activation delay to jump clone again.

So it sounds like someone can change the cost. Are there any restrictions on that, e.g. timers to stop them from 100x-ing the cost every few seconds?

I have no clue about how destroying or unanchoring Citadels works, what concord would do, how reinforcements work, do you have to declare war, what happens if they declare war on you, etc. I'm not planning on using or owning a Citadel so you don't need to explain it. But I do know that Citadels come and go, so it's not unusual for these things to happen.

It used to be that jumping to the same station would destroy one of your clones. So I really don't know what would happen if I jumped to the same location in a Citadel OR in a regular station. I really like the intent of this though -
to say if you're not travelling there's no timer, that's exactly what I want. I am really only trying to go from one station to another within the same system (I'd have them all in the same station if I could), and therefore there'd be no need for a timer to apply to me.

Why not? WTF else are you going to do with it? It's not like you can save it for retirement like RL money.

to be honest with things like injectors and CCP overall wanting eve to be more accessible i would not be surprised if an outdated system like attributes was removed. and i would really not be surprised if when they did it the NEX store started selling something like a 2x sp accelerator

I've never heard of this before.