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CSM. The manner mismatch the matter.

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Syds Sinclair
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2017-03-04 03:08:29 UTC
..In my opinion, the CSM has served its purpose twice.

First, the T2 BPO BoB scandal, and the "Greed is Good" scandal. In both cases the CSM was a great liaison between the very upset masses and the Devs who were frantic to repair their image with said masses.

This CSM bodies that were not in power during those two instances were elected via popularity contest (besides a few exceptions) and presided over a whole lot of inconsequential ****.

That being said, if another crisis were to emerge, I hope whatever CSM body that is in place will rise to the occasion like it's two exceptional predecessors did.

♠ Sinclair Consulting ♠
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#22 - 2017-03-04 17:08:38 UTC
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Personally I've felt that the CSM system just isn't representative enough. Yes it democratic, but at some point it is a popularity contest backed by the mega coalitions. if you don't have a mega coalition forcing its people to vote for you then you wont win.



Ahem.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Cade Windstalker
#23 - 2017-03-04 19:37:19 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:

but at least most people who make the CSM actually care and sorta know what they're doing or talking about


OK, that made me chuckle! Yes there are some that care about Eve but for many it really was for the trip and perks. As to knowing what they are talking about? It would not be an assumption my experiences would confirm. I was surprised to learn a few CSMs I met were damn smart an knew what they were talking about but there were enough that didn't that I would call their advice to be a hazard to themselves and others.

Let be fair, the CSM is just another political body and folks that get elected are made up of all manner of of awesome or not. I would say this about that. Eve is a truly unique game. One thing that makes Eve "Eve" is the CSM. It lets Eve have more layers of "meta" and Eve is unrivaled in its ability to offer the "meta". I can't think of another game that would make me want to run for an office or that would get my virtual self in the global news multiple times as a result of things that happened in a virtual universe.

Eve is the big leagues for a type of gamer that no other game offers. And the CSM is part of that.


Okay, fair points all around, let me amend that a little to the people who tend to get on the CSM tend to know what they're doing and care more than the average player. Certainly these days when it's pretty common knowledge that you don't get to just go on vacation to Iceland and people who don't do crap during their tenure tend to get named and shamed. Not saying everyone who gets on the CSM is an awesome paragon of an Eve player, but I'd take them over 90% of the people I see running around the game or the forums.

At the very least the ability to get elected indicates a minimum level of organizational and people skills, since you managed to get a big enough public profile to run successfully.
hmu-smh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2017-03-04 20:07:13 UTC
They just exist for show, so that players think they have any relevance in ccp decisions lol
Brigadine Ferathine
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2017-03-04 21:01:42 UTC
hmu-smh wrote:
They just exist for show, so that players think they have any relevance in ccp decisions lol

^^ this
mkint
#26 - 2017-03-05 04:37:02 UTC
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
hmu-smh wrote:
They just exist for show, so that players think they have any relevance in ccp decisions lol

^^ this

obligatory "so which is it? Are they a tool for nullbears to manipulate development direction, or are they a meaningless marketing tool?"

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2017-03-05 04:43:25 UTC
mkint wrote:
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
hmu-smh wrote:
They just exist for show, so that players think they have any relevance in ccp decisions lol

^^ this

obligatory "so which is it? Are they a tool for nullbears to manipulate development direction, or are they a meaningless marketing tool?"


both!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2017-03-05 08:28:33 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Personally I've felt that the CSM system just isn't representative enough. Yes it democratic, but at some point it is a popularity contest backed by the mega coalitions. if you don't have a mega coalition forcing its people to vote for you then you wont win.



Ahem.


seconded

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Josef Djugashvilis
#29 - 2017-03-05 15:15:25 UTC
It is better to have the player elected CSM than not...well just about...

This is not a signature.
Brigadine Ferathine
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2017-03-05 16:01:21 UTC
mkint wrote:
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
hmu-smh wrote:
They just exist for show, so that players think they have any relevance in ccp decisions lol

^^ this

obligatory "so which is it? Are they a tool for nullbears to manipulate development direction, or are they a meaningless marketing tool?"

both
Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2017-03-05 17:15:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausend
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Personally I've felt that the CSM system just isn't representative enough. Yes it democratic, but at some point it is a popularity contest backed by the mega coalitions. if you don't have a mega coalition forcing its people to vote for you then you wont win.

How exactly are mega coalitions forcing their people to vote a certain way? Secret ballots should prevent this fairly effectively. Is it so difficult to imagine that people actually vote for their blobs candidate of their own accord? And if many people with certain interests all vote for the same guy, and that guy ends up representing them in the CSM, what's bad about that?

Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
mkint wrote:
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
hmu-smh wrote:
They just exist for show, so that players think they have any relevance in ccp decisions lol

^^ this

obligatory "so which is it? Are they a tool for nullbears to manipulate development direction, or are they a meaningless marketing tool?"

both

but those two contradict each other, don't they? Unless of course you claim that "nullbears" are not players like any other and somehow don't count. Is that what you are saying?
Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2017-03-05 21:46:31 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
Quote:

obligatory "so which is it? Are they a tool for nullbears to manipulate development direction, or are they a meaningless marketing tool?"


but those two contradict each other, don't they? Unless of course you claim that "nullbears" are not players like any other and somehow don't count. Is that what you are saying?


they don't contradict each other.

think: you are CCP and you have built a marketing tool: how do you legitimate it?
simply letting "them decide/give their opinion" on smalls details, legit ininfluence in the big scheme(not sure it's an english word Cool englando FTW) of the things.

it's pretty much like scamming someone in jita's local!
give me your money, i'll double them!
ok let's try! giving him 10mil! he gives me back 20mil! (oh jeezzzzzz! it's working!!!!!!!!
giving him 20bil........... oh jeezzzzzzzzz GOTTEM Cool
Cade Windstalker
#33 - 2017-03-06 18:45:28 UTC
Soel Reit wrote:
Neuntausend wrote:
Quote:

obligatory "so which is it? Are they a tool for nullbears to manipulate development direction, or are they a meaningless marketing tool?"


but those two contradict each other, don't they? Unless of course you claim that "nullbears" are not players like any other and somehow don't count. Is that what you are saying?


they don't contradict each other.

think: you are CCP and you have built a marketing tool: how do you legitimate it?
simply letting "them decide/give their opinion" on smalls details, legit ininfluence in the big scheme(not sure it's an english word Cool englando FTW) of the things.

it's pretty much like scamming someone in jita's local!
give me your money, i'll double them!
ok let's try! giving him 10mil! he gives me back 20mil! (oh jeezzzzzz! it's working!!!!!!!!
giving him 20bil........... oh jeezzzzzzzzz GOTTEM Cool


Every time I see someone advancing an argument like this I can only think that they both have never read a CSM meeting minutes and have no clue how Game Design works... Roll
Thomas Lot
London Elektricity
#34 - 2017-03-06 21:08:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Thomas Lot
Steve Ronuken wrote:
One thing I'll say:

The summits aren't holidays. Yes, you get flown to Iceland. You then spend (now) 4 days in a meeting room before flying home. And the fanfest trip for (some) members was removed for 10. (With 9's agreement. Meant more people at the summits)

Maybe the work has changed since the beginning. You'd have to ask Issler. There's certainly an implication there.


Anyway:
The CSM is, primarily, a focus group for CCP. People to hear plans in confidence and give feedback. And to highlight problems which CCP may have overlooked, suggesting that it needs work.

We're not game designers. Anyone that thinks that is missing the whole point. And is soon corrected if they make it on. (That's not to say we can't suggest things. But I can count on the fingers of one hand how many times a suggestion has been acted on, when it's not directly related to something CCP is already working on)

It's _possible_ for anyone to get onto it. You just need to persuade enough people that they should vote for you. It doesn't need a major nullsec bloc behind you. (That helps, of course. Because they come with enough people. They'd not be major blocs otherwise)

The worst thing you can do, if you object to the number of nullsec people on it, is not vote. Independents can get on. Just look at Mike. Or me.


As for 'replace them with public forums!', a key part of the CSM is that CCP can come to us with plans which are less formed. Where things might change substantially before release. Or be completely canned. You know what people can be like. "We're thinking about" becomes "We're definitely doing." Which is something CCP's had problems with in the past. Also not good for quick feedback.

CCP _do_ have chats with players at their events. Just look at the roundtables at Fanfest. They're just not suitable for everything.


(ok. more than one thing.)



Have to call bullshit when I see it. The most recent CSM appears to have been a summit where a few players proposed changes to the game and reporting methods that favor their individual block/corp/alliance. Using the CSM as a platform to gain advantages in the game has made the CSM corrupt and untrustworthy.

I have lost faith in the CSMs purpose and have no trust in it.
Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2017-03-07 01:22:06 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Soel Reit wrote:
Neuntausend wrote:
Quote:

obligatory "so which is it? Are they a tool for nullbears to manipulate development direction, or are they a meaningless marketing tool?"


but those two contradict each other, don't they? Unless of course you claim that "nullbears" are not players like any other and somehow don't count. Is that what you are saying?


they don't contradict each other.

think: you are CCP and you have built a marketing tool: how do you legitimate it?
simply letting "them decide/give their opinion" on smalls details, legit ininfluence in the big scheme(not sure it's an english word Cool englando FTW) of the things.

it's pretty much like scamming someone in jita's local!
give me your money, i'll double them!
ok let's try! giving him 10mil! he gives me back 20mil! (oh jeezzzzzz! it's working!!!!!!!!
giving him 20bil........... oh jeezzzzzzzzz GOTTEM Cool


Every time I see someone advancing an argument like this I can only think that they both have never read a CSM meeting minutes and have no clue how Game Design works... Roll


it's pretty much how it works bro!
open your eyesssssssssssss
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#36 - 2017-03-07 01:38:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Khergit Deserters
Seems a good use of CSM by CCP would be to get their input on what the huge noisy posting player base might think about things that come up. "Someone is offended by an alliance's name. CSM members, what do you think the players' opinions about this would be? Your thoughts before we make a decision would be appreciated. (Note: No need to make a final judgment call, that will be done based on various legal, business, etc. reality factors. But what you think your demographic sector of the player base think about this issue could help us out a lot)."
Cade Windstalker
#37 - 2017-03-07 02:02:46 UTC
Soel Reit wrote:
it's pretty much how it works bro!
open your eyesssssssssssss


I know how it works, I know a couple dozen professional game devs personally or professionally. Your ideas of how this works are the stuff of fever dreams and conspiracy theories, not reality Lol

Doesn't mean they're not amusing though, so please carry on! Pirate
Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2017-03-07 02:25:31 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Soel Reit wrote:
it's pretty much how it works bro!
open your eyesssssssssssss


I know how it works, I know a couple dozen professional game devs personally or professionally. Your ideas of how this works are the stuff of fever dreams and conspiracy theories, not reality Lol

Doesn't mean they're not amusing though, so please carry on! Pirate


thanks bud! i will Cool
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