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eve; single shard; single account

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Amojin
Doomheim
#61 - 2017-03-05 18:01:05 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
That's because you had lacking training to help you understand your purpose as a soldier.


In the US Army, the role of a soldier is to do the will of the public, as expressed through the CiC. Sure, you can refuse illegal orders, in fact you're required to, but lacking training?

I didn't know you could train someone to be comfortable with murder. If that's possible, then you're right, I didn't get that training, and neither did anyone else I served with. You cannot take that great moral role onto yourself, when you are but a cog in a greater machine.

There are two types of soldiers - those that joined for, and enjoy killing, under a banner of protection, and those that kill, reluctantly, for that same scutcheon.

The modern weapons of war are too much for a single mind to comprehend. If you just killed 20 people, that's a lot harder to deal with, mentally, than saying to yourself, 'I just killed 20 enemies that would have murdered my family, if they had a chance. They're not human - they're monsters.'
Alpha CEO
Doomheim
#62 - 2017-03-05 18:07:44 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
Alpha CEO wrote:

Fairness is not defined by equality of skill, it's about how you treat people.



I see no people. I only see targets. Killmails waiting to happen. Maybe this is where you're going wrong. In warfare the first thing you do is dehumanize the enemy. It's the only way you can kill him and stay sane.

We're characters in a video game. If you struggle with sanity over exploding pixels, then perhaps PvP isn't a good choice. Maybe even EVE is not a good choice.
Salvos Rhoska
#63 - 2017-03-05 18:11:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Amojin wrote:
I didn't know you could train someone to be comfortable with murder. If that's possible, then you're right, I didn't get that training, and neither did anyone else I served with. You cannot take that great moral role onto yourself, when you are but a cog in a greater machine.


Its not murder, as long as its an action taken during combat in war in-order to defend yourself, your comrades or the fulfillment of your mission from enemy combatants.

You don't need to dehumanize the enemy, in-order to fulfill this.
Its not murder. You have to kill them, or they will kill you, given the chance.

But they are people, and soldiers, and they too operate under the same precept.

As I said above, killing non-combatants is a serious issue and potentially murder and a war-crime.

The point I am making, is you don't need to dehumanize the enemy in-order to kill them.
A) Dehumanizing them is what will drive you insane. They are humans. You killed them. Dehumanizing them wont change that.
B) Dehumanizing them will lead to behavior which will lead them to dehumanize you and your comrades as well.
C) Dehumanizing them is what will lead to the death of innocents, as you no longer distinguish between them, nor care.
D) Dehumanizing them leads to underestimating them as humans and capable combatants, putting you and your comrades at risk.

The only justification you have, and need, to kill enemies, is to defend yourself, your comrades and fulfill your objectives.
No dehumanization necessary, at all.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Amojin
Doomheim
#64 - 2017-03-05 18:13:53 UTC
Alpha CEO wrote:
We're characters in a video game. If you struggle with sanity over exploding pixels, then perhaps PvP isn't a good choice. Maybe even EVE is not a good choice.


This is the same person wants a copy of your DNA to join her corp... For her, I believe this is very real. It's a paradox, however, that she will blithely ignore your human rights, but at the same time, has a problem with blowing up your pixelated 'self.'

Her statement, though, is true, as regards to RL. These games? Not so much. I absolutely do attack back when someone tries to gank me. I don't warp scramble them, though, and let them leave if they bit off more than they could chew. I'm not terribly interested in killing you, but I do have a keen interest in not letting you kill me.

I think that's fair.
Amojin
Doomheim
#65 - 2017-03-05 18:15:39 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Amojin wrote:
I didn't know you could train someone to be comfortable with murder. If that's possible, then you're right, I didn't get that training, and neither did anyone else I served with. You cannot take that great moral role onto yourself, when you are but a cog in a greater machine.


Its not murder, as long as its an action taken during combat in war in-order to defend yourself, your comrades or the fulfillment of your mission from enemy combatants.

You don't need to dehumanize the enemy, in-order to fulfill this.
Its not murder. You have to kill them, or they will kill you, given the chance.

But they are people, and soldiers, and they too operate under the same precept.

As I said above, killing non-combatants is a serious issue and potentially murder and a war-crime.

The point I am making, is you don't need to dehumanize the enemy in-order to kill them.
A) Dehumanizing them is what will drive you insane. They are humans. You killed them. Dehumanizing them wont change that.
B) Dehumanizing them will lead to behavior which will lead them to dehumanize you and your comrades as well.
C) Dehumanizing them is what will lead to the death of innocents, as you no longer distinguish between them, nor care.
D) Dehumanizing them leads to underestimating them as humans and capable combatants, putting you and your comrades at risk.

The only justification you have, and need, to kill enemies, is to defend yourself, your comrades and your objective.
No dehumanization necessary.


The time for all that theorizing is pre-op. Yes, I said a lot of the things you just said, and tried to get my superiors to listen. That never worked. When the time comes, and you're on the ground, that **** is gone, completely. It's not time to talk or think, anymore, but to get the job done.
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#66 - 2017-03-05 18:16:35 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
What is this fair that the OP speaks of?


A rather antiquated ethical view once shared by a great many people. You can still see images of their great deeds of combat on artful pottery, coins, and frescoes of the ancient world. As civilization advanced, however, and weaponry became more deadly, and you could annihilate first 10 enemies, with a new technology, people realized that their ethics would have to be somewhat blunted. Then came 100 people, and a thousand, and tens of thousands, the societies creating those weapons wanting to use them, a further erosion occurred.

You can see in their surviving documents, a shift from 'this is right and good,' to more of a 'this is so much power, and so efficient' stance. As they enriched themselves, physically, however, there was a notable drop off in the complexity of their culture. Why bother cultivating methods of peaceful interaction, when you can just push a button and annihilate them?

Clearly, the OP is from one of these less advanced cultures, and should be annihilated?

Hmm, that sounds like something Daniel Jackson would say on SG-1... Oh well, I liked him.

Most likely it wasn't much different back then compared to today and a good portion of the population had severe issues with reading comprehension.

With EVE it is no much different compared to these "gold old times". The difference between fair and EVE is the difference between concept and reality.

Fair, just like honor, are completely subjective terms and entirely a matter of sentiment and perspective.

Remove standings and insurance.
Salvos Rhoska
#67 - 2017-03-05 18:24:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Amojin wrote:
The time for all that theorizing is pre-op. Yes, I said a lot of the things you just said, and tried to get my superiors to listen. That never worked. When the time comes, and you're on the ground, that **** is gone, completely. It's not time to talk or think, anymore, but to get the job done.


I understand.

My point is that dehumanizing the enemy is not conducive to sanity of troops, nor operational effectiveness.

The correct motivation, and the only justification a soldier needs and has to kill, is to protect themselves, their comrades, and in fulfillment of their mission (which ofc also includes killing as many enemies as possible).

Its that simple.

The whole dehumanizing aspect is self-destructive and harmful in the long-run, and completely unnecessary.

I'm sorry to hear you didn't get this kind of training and where instead encouraged to dehumanize the enemy.
If it helps, and if you have regrets, consider them in the format I said above.
Perhaps you can find some peace there for actions you might have regretted or orders you didnt agree with.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Amojin
Doomheim
#68 - 2017-03-05 18:29:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Amojin
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Amojin wrote:
The time for all that theorizing is pre-op. Yes, I said a lot of the things you just said, and tried to get my superiors to listen. That never worked. When the time comes, and you're on the ground, that **** is gone, completely. It's not time to talk or think, anymore, but to get the job done.


I understand.

My point is that dehumanizing the enemy is not conducive to sanity of troops, nor operational effectiveness.

The correct motivation, and the only justification a soldier needs and has to kill, is to protect themselves, their comrades, and in fulfillment of their mission (which ofc also includes killing as many enemies as possible).

Its that simple.

The whole dehumanizing aspect is self-destructive and harmful in the long-run, and completely unnecessary.

I'm sorry to hear you didn't get this kind of training and where instead encouraged to dehumanize the enemy.
If it helps, and if you have regrets, consider them in the format I said above.
Perhaps you can find some peace there for actions you might have regretted or orders you didnt agree with.


I have absolutely no regrets. When the Centurion asked Paul what he needed to do, Paul's answer was very simple to comprehend. Be content with your wages, and do violence to no man, without cause.

Be content with your wages, we can extrapolate into not looting innocents in the field.
Do violence to no man, without cause, means that you should not hit innocents.

Lacking in Paul's answer? If we were to be pacifists, Paul would have commanded him to leave Caesar's legions. He didn't, though, because scripture makes a delineation between national defense violence, and personal violence. Yes, turn the other cheek, personally.

If your role, you being called to such for a time, is national defense, then do it, and do it with all your might. I have no regrets, at all. Scripture trained me, and so I don't have PTSD.
ISD Max Trix
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#69 - 2017-03-05 23:15:37 UTC
Quote:
3. Ranting is prohibited.

A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.


Closed. If you would like to suggest a way to improve the game please feel free to open a thread in Player Feature and ideas.

ISD Max Trix

Lieutenant

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to EVE mails about forum moderation.