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Loki balance? Minmatar cruiser balance? Arty/autocaanon balance?
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W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2017-01-05 20:49:59 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
...People complaining about acs are complaining about their range and application, not their dps at 0. A rlml caracal outdamages a cynabal at 25km with reload already considered, thats how bad they are. So any medium projectile kiter is force into arties, at which point they have to compete to the opness that is scorch, drones (hello vni) or railguns which are just better, even drones beat artys for kiting. Now, im not saying arties are bad, they have their place. But its not as the weapon system of a kiting cynabal or stabber, party due to how they are designed and party because they are impossible to fit on most things.


Are you comparing long range guns with short range guns again?


Why would you ever not compare those? They are used for exactly the same thing most times, people kite with ACs (stabber, cynabal, vagabond), people kite with scorch M, people kite with drones just as people kite with railguns, arties and beam lazors. Not comparing them would be stupid and serve no reason.
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2017-01-05 20:50:51 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
...People complaining about acs are complaining about their range and application, not their dps at 0. A rlml caracal outdamages a cynabal at 25km with reload already considered, thats how bad they are. So any medium projectile kiter is force into arties, at which point they have to compete to the opness that is scorch, drones (hello vni) or railguns which are just better, even drones beat artys for kiting. Now, im not saying arties are bad, they have their place. But its not as the weapon system of a kiting cynabal or stabber, party due to how they are designed and party because they are impossible to fit on most things.


Are you comparing long range guns with short range guns again?



I think the crux of the auto cannons sux lobby (I didn't put slow continuous whine, because that wouldn't be politically correct) is that folks just can't bear to fight in first fall off like they are supposed to w/ auto cannons. Autos are deemed worthless outside 2k (whatever the optimal is for a given setup) because EFT says so (we all know math never lies Lol) The secondary 'problem' with AC are that you can't kite in optimal. The real issue is that a lot of the player base is soft and gets all itchy and stressed out fighting inside scram range. I've never had a problem with auto cannons doing what I want them to do. Perhaps I should try kiting with short range weapons so the problems are more evident????

TL/DR There are no balance issues with the loki or projectile weapons. There are problems with folks drawing the wrong conclusions from basic maths. https://xkcd.com/1132/ (protip - if it's not funny, google the explanation.... still not funny..... shrug)


What is your point? You typed a whole lot that basicely says nothing.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#23 - 2017-01-06 13:28:47 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
...People complaining about acs are complaining about their range and application, not their dps at 0. A rlml caracal outdamages a cynabal at 25km with reload already considered, thats how bad they are. So any medium projectile kiter is force into arties, at which point they have to compete to the opness that is scorch, drones (hello vni) or railguns which are just better, even drones beat artys for kiting. Now, im not saying arties are bad, they have their place. But its not as the weapon system of a kiting cynabal or stabber, party due to how they are designed and party because they are impossible to fit on most things.


Are you comparing long range guns with short range guns again?



I think the crux of the auto cannons sux lobby (I didn't put slow continuous whine, because that wouldn't be politically correct) is that folks just can't bear to fight in first fall off like they are supposed to w/ auto cannons. Autos are deemed worthless outside 2k (whatever the optimal is for a given setup) because EFT says so (we all know math never lies Lol) The secondary 'problem' with AC are that you can't kite in optimal. The real issue is that a lot of the player base is soft and gets all itchy and stressed out fighting inside scram range. I've never had a problem with auto cannons doing what I want them to do. Perhaps I should try kiting with short range weapons so the problems are more evident????

TL/DR There are no balance issues with the loki or projectile weapons. There are problems with folks drawing the wrong conclusions from basic maths. https://xkcd.com/1132/ (protip - if it's not funny, google the explanation.... still not funny..... shrug)


What is your point? You typed a whole lot that basicely says nothing.



My point is that YOU are one of those ninnies that has drawn the conclusion that AC are bad because you get out damaged when you try to kite a rlml caracal with an AC cynabal. 1v1 if you're flying an AC cynabal and you opt to have a kiting fight w/ a caracal - YOU DESERVE TO LOSE THE CYNABAL. Use the ships gifted speed, close in and wonk the caracal, don't sit at 25km and cry about something that is working as intended. That you can derive no meaning from my post is not at all surprising. News flash - my blaster fitted navy mega can't out kite a rhml navy scorp.... does that mean blasters suck and need a buff?? That's pretty much the same argument with different ships. Heck, use a blaster vindi and a rlml caracal - the caracal still wins??? Your premise is horribly flawed in that is assumes the cynabal is used incorrectly for the situation given.

I could damp fit the cynabal, throw on some arties and orbit the rlml caracal just out of its missile range and claim rlml suck because they can't appy damage to a kiting arty cynabal. I'll just ignore some realistic things like at that range the caracal could just warp away and focus on how much rlml suck because of poor range and damage application. This argument is no less silly than your AC cynabal can't kite a caracal and out damage it. The point of this (for those slow on the uptake) - setting up unrealistic starting conditions and accepting them can let you logically argue just about anything.

I outright reject your rlml caracal vs AC cynabal kiting premise because only someone really bad at Eve would do it. I'll translate your argument into real language:

Pemise: I want to be able to do something that makes no sense (kite a caracal w/an AC cynabal). Conclusion: I think the cynabal and/or AC is/are broken because the unrealistic tasks can't be performed.


Clear enough??
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2017-01-06 15:49:17 UTC
:facepalm: You must be trolling now but anyways:


Its not about a caracal 1v1ing a cynabal, not at all, that doesnt even matter and is totally irrelevant. Its about that in a situation where you have to kite, the cynabals applied dps is worse then that of a caracal - which is a low dps t1 cruiser.

Its about range bonuses Acs on what is probably the best medium Ac kiter in the game doing less overall dps, at a range where a kiter would normally be (as in at the end of point range), then a rlml caracal.



Its a comparison of one of the lowest dps kiters in the game in terms of sustained dps with an AC kiter to show that even there the AC kiter is inferior.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#25 - 2017-03-03 20:49:26 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
:facepalm: You must be trolling now but anyways:


Its not about a caracal 1v1ing a cynabal, not at all, that doesnt even matter and is totally irrelevant. Its about that in a situation where you have to kite, the cynabals applied dps is worse then that of a caracal - which is a low dps t1 cruiser.

Its about range bonuses Acs on what is probably the best medium Ac kiter in the game doing less overall dps, at a range where a kiter would normally be (as in at the end of point range), then a rlml caracal.



Its a comparison of one of the lowest dps kiters in the game in terms of sustained dps with an AC kiter to show that even there the AC kiter is inferior.


The fact that the Cynabal is usually used as a kiter does not mean it should always kite.

http://imgur.com/RlTJyJM

It's almost like kiting missiles with short range weapon was a bad idea pretty much all the time.

I wonder if it might be related to the fact they have a flat damage curve along their whole engagement range.
Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2017-03-03 22:56:08 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
An-Nur wrote:
The Loki offers so many possibilities for versatility, but ends up being jack of all trades and master of none. What could have been a guiding principle for even greater diversity in t3's has ended up looking like a lazy attempt at design theory crafting.

The jack of all trades master of none WAS the initial design theory for the T3 cruisers. The Loki is notable in this class because it is the only one that ever came close to meeting this design goal. Seriously all of the T3 ships in the game are desperate need for a re-work from the ground up.

Or just remove them from the game entirely and use the hulls for something else.
Mikkir
SHINKETSU Inc.
#27 - 2017-03-05 09:18:49 UTC
The only change to the loki I would go for is making the hardpoint efficiency offensive system not suck. I think everyone can agree it's trash.

I think minmatar have good support ships because webs and TP's are good all the time, the scythe/scim's are particularly solid, but they have weak damage cruisers. I think their navy cruisers are particularly bad, but that can be a generic statement for most of the navy cruisers.
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