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How effective is CSM? Time to get rid of it?
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Sundarpants
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-01-21 20:52:11 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:

Players play the game, sheeple vote.


... and fools bemoan their lack of opertunity while refusing those presented
Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#22 - 2012-01-21 20:55:01 UTC
Hi I'm a lazy scrub who thrives on ignorance and want people to come to me rather than inform myself and get involved in discussions via the correct channels therefore I'll suggest we disband this player representative I clearly don't understand.

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#23 - 2012-01-21 21:03:42 UTC
Atticus Fynch wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Atticus Fynch wrote:
Rikki Sals wrote:


What method do you propose?


Email alert linking to a survey site. Log-in screen alert linking to email site.

You log in to survey site with your account info and answer questions/vote.

Simple.


1) Why do you seem to enjoy getting email spam?

2) IIRC there was E-Mail spam telling people to vote in the CSM. That various blocs were able to get out the vote better than disorganized HiSec people is not the fault of the blocs.


Having a voice in EVE shouldnt have to be a mini-game of knowing who-is-who in what election and what they might represent It's just a popularity contest with no real teeth.

It should be direct and simple. If e-mail spam is your biggest problem in life then you are a very privileged person.


Gaining influence in life is a game of organization and knowing people.

Any sort of voting system of organized survey system is going to run into issues of voter participation. Organized groups of players have already figured out how to get people to participate in things, and so their participation will be much higher.

In addition, some person has to go through the surveys and interpret them. The CSM was formed because we as players can't trust CCP to not screw that up(through incompetence or corruption). To paraphrase Churchill, Representative Democracy (the CSM) is the worst possible governmental system.... but for all the rest.

E-Mail spam is not the biggest problem in my life. It is a problem and is something that I do not enjoy dealing with.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Cyprus Black
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#24 - 2012-01-21 21:23:28 UTC
Well you could start by actually keeping up with the CSMs activities. I'll be the first to admit there needs to be a LOT more clarity and communication, but CSM 6 are the first bunch I've seen who didn't treat it like a joke.

Plus I think you misunderstand how the CSM works. They don't actually hold any power of any kind and CCP is in no way required to listen to anything they have to say. The CSM is simply there to give their opinion and little else. As we've already seen, the CSMs gave their opinion, CCP didn't listen, and it bit them in the ass hard.

That's why CCP pays them any mind. If you believe the CSMs aren't representing the playerbase, then vote for one you believe does.

Summary of EvEs last four expansions: http://imgur.com/ZL5SM33
Atticus Fynch
#25 - 2012-01-21 21:36:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Atticus Fynch
Look, if you fools want to play grade-school class president elections, that's fine. You cant deny though that CSM does not represent the whole and when that happens then the system is broken.

One of the more humorous aspects of CSM is how their hands are tied by non-disclosure-agreements.

They are representing us right? That is as good as having us right there in iceland, right? So why does our "representative" body need to keep secrets from us?

In RL such measures are necessary in govt for national security...but we are talking about a game here.

EVE has no real competitors. SWTOR is more a competitor to WOW than EVE. Perpetuum is the closest thing to EVE by way of game mechanics, but the theme is still very different. So why all the secrecy?

When CSM came back from the Incarna fiasco, they said "Gallente CQ is the best looking of all." Really? Why is this such a secret that CCP could produce pics? And is this the best CSM came back with considering all the things wrong with Incarna?

Lady Spank wrote:
Hi I'm a lazy scrub who thrives on ignorance and want people to come to me rather than inform myself and get involved in discussions via the correct channels therefore I'll suggest we disband this player representative I clearly don't understand.


Im not a lazy scrub, I am a PAYING CUSTOMER, which has more weight today than it did in pre-incarna days where CCP felt they had us wrapped around their little finger. I expected better out of you LS, guess you ar just another worthless troll.

You cant deny that CSM is a dinosaur kept around just for the sake of keeping it around. Electronic communications is better. cheaper, faster and represents the playerbase more accurately.

In short, CSM is a joke and CCP knows it. So who is really "ignorant" here?

[b]★★★Cargo Pilots Unite!!!★★★ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132[/b]
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#26 - 2012-01-21 21:46:21 UTC
Atticus Fynch wrote:
Look, if you fools want to play grade-school class president elections, that's fine. You cant deny though that CSM does not represent the whole and when that happens then the system is broken.

One of the more humorous aspects of CSM is how their hands are tied by non-disclosure-agreements.

They are representing us right? That is as good as having us right there in iceland, right? So why does our "representative" body need to keep secrets from us?

In RL such measures are necessary in govt for national security...but we are talking about a game here.

EVE has no real competitors. SWTOR is more a competitor to WOW than EVE. Perpetuum is the closest thing to EVE by way of game mechanics, but the theme is still very different. So why all the secrecy?

From what I understand, the members of the CSM have pointed out that silliness to CCP, but the NDA issues are on CCP's head. The CSM doesn't have much of a choice there.

Quote:

When CSM came back from the Incarna fiasco, they said "Gallente CQ is the best looking of all." Really? Why is this such a secret that CCP could produce pics? And is the best CSM came back with considering all the things wrong with Incarna?

Lady Spank wrote:
Hi I'm a lazy scrub who thrives on ignorance and want people to come to me rather than inform myself and get involved in discussions via the correct channels therefore I'll suggest we disband this player representative I clearly don't understand.


Im not a lazy scrub, I am a PAYING CUSTOMER, which has more weight today than it did in pre-incarna days where CCP felt they had us wrapped around their little finger. I expected better out of you LS, guess you ar just another worthless troll.

YOu cant deny that CSm is a dinosaur kept around just for the sake of keeping it around. Electronic communications is better. cheaper, faster and represents the playerbase more accurately.

In short, CSM is a joke and CCP knows it.


You're a paying customer. So is everyone else. Stop yelling about paying CCP's salary with your 50cents a day. It makes you look like a tool.

Great, Electronic Communication's awesome. Who decides what questions to ask, how to interpret free-form answers, how to word the questions, and so many other issues that come up in polling? Like I said before, CCP has shown that we certanly can't answer that question with "The Management at CCP"

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Muestereate
Minions LLC
#27 - 2012-01-21 21:47:52 UTC
Quote:
Im not a lazy scrub, I am a PAYING CUSTOMER



So far Out!!

Atticus for CSM chair
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#28 - 2012-01-21 21:52:27 UTC
Vote next time. sheesh.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Komen
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2012-01-21 21:54:49 UTC
I am for keeping the CSM just to generate such entertainment as this thread, and all the ones about TheMittani being a ganking griefer and how that shouldn't be allowed in particular. Priceless enjoyment.
ACE McFACE
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-01-21 22:01:19 UTC
atrum dux wrote:
Hi, please do not take down the CSM. We won't be able to destroy this wonderful internet spaceship game.

I don't recall the CSM suggesting that Nyxes deploy more Nyxes which deploy more etc, until the node crashes. Or suggesting that said Nyxes are allowed in high sec. Now that would ruin the game

Now, more than ever, we need a dislike button.
Caldari Acolyte
Shark Enterprises
#31 - 2012-01-21 23:08:44 UTC
There's already enough politics in Eve as is, CSM's are nothing more than Prima Donna Drama Queens pushing their own agenda's. Simple solution Let CCP put up important issues on referendum for the player base to decide directly.
Welsige
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2012-01-21 23:25:08 UTC
Arghhhh, democracy is idiotic anyway, having a majority dosent mean their decision is the right one.

Anyway, CSM are players (players as in - not earning a dime for the activity) and I am sure they have better things to do than create, post, receive and analyse pool results.

They got ellected, and give their opinions on the matters. Still, they have no real power. So whatever they want to 'push', CCP can judge if thats good or not for the game, wich is their bussiness.

[b]~ 10.058 ~

Free The Mittani[/b]
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#33 - 2012-01-21 23:33:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Asuka Solo
RubyPorto wrote:

You're a paying customer. So is everyone else. Stop yelling about paying CCP's salary with your 50cents a day. It makes you look like a tool.


Funny you should say that.

I recall a certain group of players lead by a rather vocal tool who enjoyed bitching about how eve was failing and how useless the CSM at the time was. They protested in jita and then threatened to quit if CCP didn't listen to them. Many blogs were written leading up to the last CSM elections and many alt accounts suspended when Incarna failed to deliver what was promised, with nasty notes indicating why.

Deja vu in the making.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#34 - 2012-01-21 23:56:16 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

You're a paying customer. So is everyone else. Stop yelling about paying CCP's salary with your 50cents a day. It makes you look like a tool.


Funny you should say that.

I recall a certain group of players lead by a rather vocal tool who enjoyed bitching about how eve was failing and how useless the CSM at the time was. They protested in jita and then threatened to quit if CCP didn't listen to them. Many blogs were written leading up to the last CSM elections and many alt accounts suspended when Incarna failed to deliver what was promised, with nasty notes indicating why.

Deja vu in the making.


1. At the time, CCP's management was ignoring the CSM, misrepresenting the CSM's statements, and generally treating the CSM like a cheap, unwilling PR firm/hooker.


2. If Atticus can muster enough support to stage riots the size of the Jita ones, and cause a statistically significant drop in subs like the summer did, then:
a) I'll link a video of me eating my hat (or some other ridiculous thing tbd)
b) He could stuff the next CSM with him and his 7 closest friends.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Caldari Acolyte
Shark Enterprises
#35 - 2012-01-21 23:56:24 UTC
Case in point, certain CSM's are advocating for futher SC nerfs simply because their Alliance/ Coalition can't defeat other Alliances in SC fights. They can't field enough or their SC pilots suck or won't commit. Sc's are fine as is.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#36 - 2012-01-21 23:59:41 UTC
Welsige wrote:
Arghhhh, democracy is idiotic anyway, having a majority dosent mean their decision is the right one.

Anyway, CSM are players (players as in - not earning a dime for the activity) and I am sure they have better things to do than create, post, receive and analyse pool results.

They got ellected, and give their opinions on the matters. Still, they have no real power. So whatever they want to 'push', CCP can judge if thats good or not for the game, wich is their bussiness.


1) You're right. Most of the great leaders of the 20th century agreed with you. Got a better solution? 'Cause they couldn't figure one.

2) The proposal was to get rid of the CSM and use Polls to replace them, with no mention of who's write, read, and interpret said polls.

3) Yep. CSM is all about access. Plus, this CSM has done a great job of turning access + public support into real power.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Tore Vest
#37 - 2012-01-21 23:59:49 UTC
Goons/CCP ****** up my nyx Sad

No troll.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#38 - 2012-01-22 00:00:55 UTC
Caldari Acolyte wrote:
Case in point, certain CSM's are advocating for futher SC nerfs simply because their Alliance/ Coalition can't defeat other Alliances in SC fights. They can't field enough or their SC pilots suck or won't commit. Sc's are fine as is.


The Mittani has been advocating the nerfing of Supers and Titans for years. GSF seems to be doing pretty well for supercap participation.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2012-01-22 00:16:23 UTC
How does a democratic vote do anything but further strengthen the powerblocks whose votes resulted in the current CSM?
KrakizBad
Section 8.
#40 - 2012-01-22 00:24:35 UTC
Caldari Acolyte wrote:
Case in point, certain CSM's are advocating for futher SC nerfs simply because their Alliance/ Coalition can't defeat other Alliances in SC fights. They can't field enough or their SC pilots suck or won't commit. Sc's are fine as is.

Sorry we accidentally your space. Did you use your SC to defend it?