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[Proposal] Make Ninja Salvaging a Criminal Action
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Chilibob
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-01-21 08:12:20 UTC
I am not sure if this has been brought up before, but I think that someone salvaging my wrecks should give me (and my corporation) kill rights on them just as if they were stealing from a jetcan. Often the salvage is worth much more than what the wreck contains. I do not see how it is not considered theft since it's essentially taking money out of my pocket. This could actually make ninja salvaging more interesting as well.

Thanks for reading!
Sidius Dragonis
The Farmer's CO-OP
#2 - 2012-01-21 08:21:17 UTC
I completely agree. It's a simple request. I don't run missions much, but it really does make sense that it would be treated as theft.
Smiling Menace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-01-21 11:03:08 UTC
Bad news for you I am afraid, OP. CCP has already ruled on this one and their view is the salvage isn't yours until it's in your cargohold. Ninja salvaging is working as intended.

No support from me for this proposal.
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
#4 - 2012-01-21 17:31:06 UTC
No.

Biomass queue is over Arrow

Give me your stuff first.

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||
Mag's
Azn Empire
#5 - 2012-01-21 17:55:46 UTC
Chilibob wrote:
I am not sure if this has been brought up before, but I think that someone salvaging my wrecks should give me (and my corporation) kill rights on them just as if they were stealing from a jetcan. Often the salvage is worth much more than what the wreck contains. I do not see how it is not considered theft since it's essentially taking money out of my pocket. This could actually make ninja salvaging more interesting as well.

Thanks for reading!
Salvaging is classed as a mini profession within Eve and it was designed this way from the start. If you want the salvage, you need to compete for it the same as everyone else.

Sidius Dragonis wrote:
I completely agree. It's a simple request. I don't run missions much, but it really does make sense that it would be treated as theft.
No it makes no sense at all, because the salvage is not yours or his so no theft is involved.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-01-21 17:57:02 UTC
CCP has already made their point very clear on this one. It will likely never change.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Domukuan II
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-01-21 18:16:05 UTC
So hypothetically you go to the store and buy a candy bar, you eat the candy bar, and throw away the wrapper.

If someone takes the wrapper they're stealing from you?
J Kunjeh
#8 - 2012-01-21 20:06:27 UTC
Yes, it's been brought up about a zillion times. And no, it's not a good idea.

"The world as we know it came about through an anomaly (anomou)" (The Gospel of Philip, 1-5) 
Cyprus Black
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-01-21 21:08:48 UTC
Per CCP Mitnal:
CCP Mitnal wrote:
"Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."

Per GM Faolchu :
GM Faolchu wrote:
Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage.
Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.

Per Senior GM Ytterbium :
GM Ytterbium wrote:
Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.

Per CCP Prism X :
CCP Prism X wrote:
Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.

Per CCP Incognito :
CCP Incognito wrote:
Had a chat with some designers this evening.
Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private.
They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.

(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)

Summary of EvEs last four expansions: http://imgur.com/ZL5SM33
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#10 - 2012-01-21 23:07:12 UTC
Neutral on this.

Most Ninja-Salvagers would love this change. It would make people more likely to shoot them, as is their goal.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-01-22 00:25:21 UTC
"yes, please shoot me so I can show you what a neuting Curse does to your active tank"

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Domukuan II
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-01-22 14:25:54 UTC

RubyPorto wrote:
Neutral on this.

Most Ninja-Salvagers would love this change. It would make people more likely to shoot them, as is their goal.


There are actually start-up industrialists who have realized that salvaging is actually more profitable than mining in high sec and will use "ninja salvaging" to sell the salvage to buy minerals.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#13 - 2012-01-22 16:03:16 UTC
Domukuan II wrote:

RubyPorto wrote:
Neutral on this.

Most Ninja-Salvagers would love this change. It would make people more likely to shoot them, as is their goal.


There are actually start-up industrialists who have realized that salvaging is actually more profitable than mining in high sec and will use "ninja salvaging" to sell the salvage to buy minerals.


I somehow doubt that's a high percentage of ninja salvagers, since their industrial activities would quickly start snowballing isk.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Domukuan II
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-01-22 16:46:02 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Domukuan II wrote:

RubyPorto wrote:
Neutral on this.

Most Ninja-Salvagers would love this change. It would make people more likely to shoot them, as is their goal.


There are actually start-up industrialists who have realized that salvaging is actually more profitable than mining in high sec and will use "ninja salvaging" to sell the salvage to buy minerals.


I somehow doubt that's a high percentage of ninja salvagers, since their industrial activities would quickly start snowballing isk.


Oh it's not a high percentage at all. Just saying they do exist.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#15 - 2012-01-22 16:50:30 UTC
Domukuan II wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Domukuan II wrote:

RubyPorto wrote:
Neutral on this.

Most Ninja-Salvagers would love this change. It would make people more likely to shoot them, as is their goal.


There are actually start-up industrialists who have realized that salvaging is actually more profitable than mining in high sec and will use "ninja salvaging" to sell the salvage to buy minerals.


I somehow doubt that's a high percentage of ninja salvagers, since their industrial activities would quickly start snowballing isk.


Oh it's not a high percentage at all. Just saying they do exist.


So do crazy people with Veldspar tattoos on their forearms. Balance is generally based on majority use.

That said, neither people who salvage for profit nor people who loot for Pew would be particularly harmed by this, since only silly silly missionbears shoot looters.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Bartholemu Fu-Baz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-01-24 01:56:14 UTC
Chilibob wrote:
I am not sure if this has been brought up before, but I think that someone salvaging my wrecks should give me (and my corporation) kill rights on them just as if they were stealing from a jetcan. Often the salvage is worth much more than what the wreck contains. I do not see how it is not considered theft since it's essentially taking money out of my pocket. This could actually make ninja salvaging more interesting as well.

Thanks for reading!


I would support this if also after some reasonable amount of time (30-60 mins?) they where automatically marked as abandoned (both wreck and loot).
Black Dranzer
#17 - 2012-01-24 02:23:08 UTC
You won't get any support for this. You won't get any counter-arguments or reasoning, either. They'll just call you a carebear and tell you to harden up. They will do this whilst directly endorsing Eve's single lowest risk/reward ratio activity. They will do this with a straight face.

My opinion is that either ninja salvagers should be flagged, or can looters shouldn't be flagged. It's the inconsistency that bugs me more than anything else. If I had my way I might actually rework looting entirely to move everything onto the wreck. But now I'm just daydreaming.

Walking in Stations as a Social Hub: Business vs Pleasure in Incarna
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#18 - 2012-01-24 03:12:29 UTC
Black Dranzer wrote:
You won't get any support for this. You won't get any counter-arguments or reasoning, either. They'll just call you a carebear and tell you to harden up. They will do this whilst directly endorsing Eve's single lowest risk/reward ratio activity. They will do this with a straight face.

My opinion is that either ninja salvagers should be flagged, or can looters shouldn't be flagged. It's the inconsistency that bugs me more than anything else. If I had my way I might actually rework looting entirely to move everything onto the wreck. But now I'm just daydreaming.


What's the risk in running l4s in a non-Pimped Battleship, and how does Ninja Salvaging pay more than that?

Ninja Salvaging is low risk, low reward. l4s are low risk, high reward. Risk reward ratio is Risk divided by Reward.

How is Low/Low a smaller ratio then Low/High?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Black Dranzer
#19 - 2012-01-24 04:04:36 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
How is Low/Low a smaller ratio then Low/High?


It's more like Abysmal/Medium vs Low/High.

Also, you can't run level 4s after 24 hours of training time.

Walking in Stations as a Social Hub: Business vs Pleasure in Incarna
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#20 - 2012-01-24 04:31:45 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Black Dranzer wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
How is Low/Low a smaller ratio then Low/High?


It's more like Abysmal/Medium vs Low/High.

Also, you can't run level 4s after 24 hours of training time.


The Risk is the same for the Salvager and the Mission Runner (in his non-Pimped BS). (This is an invitation for you to show me what risks a Mission runner faces that a salvager does not)

Training time is not what you were arguing, so let's clear the risk/reward ratio thing before we go gallivanting onto other arguments.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
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