These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

High Sec Ganking - CONCORD Balance request

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#1181 - 2017-03-03 03:06:28 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Amarisen Gream wrote:
I skipped most of this:

There are two sides of the coin. Ganking right now is fine. The people getting tanked are the ones not using the system like they should.
I am a care bear, and I am not a ganker, but all the tools they are bears need to taking care of gankers is there in the game already.

If memory serves me right a -5 sec status means players can engage you without concord intervention. Care Bears need to stop being *morons* and start taking escort fleets with them. Freighter being bumped: have fleet mate duel Freighter pilot, and web into Warp. Undocking from Jita, have escort team out side on undock ready to support.

Yeah, escort work is probably boring as ****, but so is coming to the forums and seeing people complain about mechanics they think are broken when they don't even use the tools that are there already to help them.


Escort work consists of a scout, preferably with webs. And even then you are really only going to need this if you are hauling too much. And even then if you have lots in your freighter, just go dock up in another station in Jita and log off for a day or so. If you dock up they may wait for you for a bit, but chances are they will move on to other targets.


I think you for your feedback. But I think you missed my point. There is already a counter to -5 sec status players. People just find the counter to boring to do. Fit a passive scanner on your escort fleet ships and make sure -5 jerks show up on your overview. People need to be educated on how crimewatch works, before asking for nerfs on a system they don't use as it was built.
Concord/Faction Police are not built to protect players. Players are suppose to kill or protect their own.

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1182 - 2017-03-03 05:40:23 UTC
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
OP, if you wish to discuss something, it is wise to not call everyone who disagrees with you trolls. Criticism is what improves and refines an idea. Furthermore, if you want people to have any hope of agreeing with your idea, you need to show a clear and present need for it, instead of just an opinion. Believing that criminals need to be punished more harshly is fine, but unless you can show why that would be better for the game, people aren't likely to agree with you.


The irony of a poster with the last name Trump making one of the most sound methodological posts in the thread.... Lol

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1183 - 2017-03-03 05:43:25 UTC
Amarisen Gream wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Amarisen Gream wrote:
I skipped most of this:

There are two sides of the coin. Ganking right now is fine. The people getting tanked are the ones not using the system like they should.
I am a care bear, and I am not a ganker, but all the tools they are bears need to taking care of gankers is there in the game already.

If memory serves me right a -5 sec status means players can engage you without concord intervention. Care Bears need to stop being *morons* and start taking escort fleets with them. Freighter being bumped: have fleet mate duel Freighter pilot, and web into Warp. Undocking from Jita, have escort team out side on undock ready to support.

Yeah, escort work is probably boring as ****, but so is coming to the forums and seeing people complain about mechanics they think are broken when they don't even use the tools that are there already to help them.


Escort work consists of a scout, preferably with webs. And even then you are really only going to need this if you are hauling too much. And even then if you have lots in your freighter, just go dock up in another station in Jita and log off for a day or so. If you dock up they may wait for you for a bit, but chances are they will move on to other targets.


I think you for your feedback. But I think you missed my point. There is already a counter to -5 sec status players. People just find the counter to boring to do. Fit a passive scanner on your escort fleet ships and make sure -5 jerks show up on your overview. People need to be educated on how crimewatch works, before asking for nerfs on a system they don't use as it was built.
Concord/Faction Police are not built to protect players. Players are suppose to kill or protect their own.


Oh I totally agree. I was just pointing to yet another tactic one could use. Leave the Jita 4-4 Caldari Navy station and dock up and log off. Most suicide gankers will start looking for a new target. Wait a few hours and then log back in. Nobody will be watching that station you docked in and make your run.

Point being, there are a multitude of ways to solve these problems vs. running to Daddy CCP and crying like a whipped female dog.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Naye Nathaniel
COBRA INC
Seventh Sanctum.
#1184 - 2017-03-03 11:18:15 UTC
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
OP, if you wish to discuss something, it is wise to not call everyone who disagrees with you trolls. Criticism is what improves and refines an idea. Furthermore, if you want people to have any hope of agreeing with your idea, you need to show a clear and present need for it, instead of just an opinion. Believing that criminals need to be punished more harshly is fine, but unless you can show why that would be better for the game, people aren't likely to agree with you.


Criticism is then when you have and share with others your arguments;
Most of the people who disagrees with "us" are just "NOOOOOO" ppl;

Without a single argument which they got from us many;

Their point of view is:

"I don't want to work harder cause of my crimes because.... NO!" and that's all;

So it's not Criticism - it's just pure trolling;
Dark Lord Trump
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#1185 - 2017-03-03 11:44:27 UTC
Naye Nathaniel wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
OP, if you wish to discuss something, it is wise to not call everyone who disagrees with you trolls. Criticism is what improves and refines an idea. Furthermore, if you want people to have any hope of agreeing with your idea, you need to show a clear and present need for it, instead of just an opinion. Believing that criminals need to be punished more harshly is fine, but unless you can show why that would be better for the game, people aren't likely to agree with you.


Criticism is then when you have and share with others your arguments;
Most of the people who disagrees with "us" are just "NOOOOOO" ppl;

Without a single argument which they got from us many;

Their point of view is:

"I don't want to work harder cause of my crimes because.... NO!" and that's all;

So it's not Criticism - it's just pure trolling;

So far the only argument you and your friends have put forward is "I think that criminals need to be punished more," which is an OPINION and is worth nothing unless you can show WHY criminals need tombd treated more harshly.

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#1186 - 2017-03-03 13:09:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Naye Nathaniel wrote:
Criticism is then when you have and share with others your arguments;
Most of the people who disagrees with "us" are just "NOOOOOO" ppl;

Without a single argument which they got from us many
Irony in action.

Most of the people that disagree are asking why.

Every single argument your friends have made has been circular, based on opinion and unsubstantiated in any way. When we ask for substantiation we get fobbed off and the question is evaded.

Quote:
Their point of view is:

"I don't want to work harder cause of my crimes because.... NO!" and that's all
Wrong.

We're asking why gankers should have to work harder than they already do in order to operate, whereas the people that the changes in this thread would benefit currently make terrible choices and put in very little effort, and the changes would mean that they'd be rewarded for their terrible choices, and put even less effort in than they currently do.

Examples of what work goes into a gank have been given already been given, yet they were poo-pooed as irrelevant because they didn't fit into the agenda of the OP and friends.

Quote:
So it's not Criticism - it's just pure trolling;
Pointing out that people are failing to produce any supporting material for their claim is criticism Roll

Claiming that your opinion is fact, evading questions, circular reasoning, not producing supporting evidence, dismissing the opinions and supporting evidence of others etc are all trolling.

Stop trolling, get discussing.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Dom Arkaral
Bannheim
Cuttlefish Collective
#1187 - 2017-03-03 13:40:50 UTC
So Erich
What mechanics?
Did the cat eat your tongue?

#inb4Igettoldtoreadtheprevious60pagestofindtheanswer

Tear Gatherer. Quebecker. Has no Honer. Salt Harvester.

Broadcast 4 Reps -- YOU ARE NOT ALONE, EVER

Instigator of the First ISD Thunderdome

CCL Loyalist
Naye Nathaniel
COBRA INC
Seventh Sanctum.
#1188 - 2017-03-03 14:39:06 UTC
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Naye Nathaniel wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
OP, if you wish to discuss something, it is wise to not call everyone who disagrees with you trolls. Criticism is what improves and refines an idea. Furthermore, if you want people to have any hope of agreeing with your idea, you need to show a clear and present need for it, instead of just an opinion. Believing that criminals need to be punished more harshly is fine, but unless you can show why that would be better for the game, people aren't likely to agree with you.


Criticism is then when you have and share with others your arguments;
Most of the people who disagrees with "us" are just "NOOOOOO" ppl;

Without a single argument which they got from us many;

Their point of view is:

"I don't want to work harder cause of my crimes because.... NO!" and that's all;

So it's not Criticism - it's just pure trolling;

So far the only argument you and your friends have put forward is "I think that criminals need to be punished more," which is an OPINION and is worth nothing unless you can show WHY criminals need tombd treated more harshly.


Yes - that is Opinion;
Argument were already told - look for it and you will find it;
I see no point of rewriting arguments over and over again when we already gave them;
Naye Nathaniel
COBRA INC
Seventh Sanctum.
#1189 - 2017-03-03 14:40:07 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Naye Nathaniel wrote:
Criticism is then when you have and share with others your arguments;
Most of the people who disagrees with "us" are just "NOOOOOO" ppl;

Without a single argument which they got from us many
Irony in action.

Most of the people that disagree are asking why.

Every single argument your friends have made has been circular, based on opinion and unsubstantiated in any way. When we ask for substantiation we get fobbed off and the question is evaded.

Quote:
Their point of view is:

"I don't want to work harder cause of my crimes because.... NO!" and that's all
Wrong.

We're asking why gankers should have to work harder than they already do in order to operate, whereas the people that the changes in this thread would benefit currently make terrible choices and put in very little effort, and the changes would mean that they'd be rewarded for their terrible choices, and put even less effort in than they currently do.

Examples of what work goes into a gank have been given already been given, yet they were poo-pooed as irrelevant because they didn't fit into the agenda of the OP and friends.

Quote:
So it's not Criticism - it's just pure trolling;
Pointing out that people are failing to produce any supporting material for their claim is criticism Roll

Claiming that your opinion is fact, evading questions, circular reasoning, not producing supporting evidence, dismissing the opinions and supporting evidence of others etc are all trolling.

Stop trolling, get discussing.


Short story short - Cause of Ballance;
Dom Arkaral
Bannheim
Cuttlefish Collective
#1190 - 2017-03-03 14:51:47 UTC
Naye Nathaniel wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Naye Nathaniel wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
OP, if you wish to discuss something, it is wise to not call everyone who disagrees with you trolls. Criticism is what improves and refines an idea. Furthermore, if you want people to have any hope of agreeing with your idea, you need to show a clear and present need for it, instead of just an opinion. Believing that criminals need to be punished more harshly is fine, but unless you can show why that would be better for the game, people aren't likely to agree with you.


Criticism is then when you have and share with others your arguments;
Most of the people who disagrees with "us" are just "NOOOOOO" ppl;

Without a single argument which they got from us many;

Their point of view is:

"I don't want to work harder cause of my crimes because.... NO!" and that's all;

So it's not Criticism - it's just pure trolling;

So far the only argument you and your friends have put forward is "I think that criminals need to be punished more," which is an OPINION and is worth nothing unless you can show WHY criminals need tombd treated more harshly.


Yes - that is Opinion;
Argument were already told - look for it and you will find it;
I see no point of rewriting arguments over and over again when we already gave them;

You awfully sound like op
/me thinks you're an alt of his hahahah

Same replies, same level of aggressiveness, same lack of valid answers

Tear Gatherer. Quebecker. Has no Honer. Salt Harvester.

Broadcast 4 Reps -- YOU ARE NOT ALONE, EVER

Instigator of the First ISD Thunderdome

CCL Loyalist
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#1191 - 2017-03-03 14:56:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Naye Nathaniel wrote:
Yes - that is Opinion
We know, and thus far that's all we've seen from you and your friends.

Quote:
Argument were already told - look for it and you will find it;
I see no point of rewriting arguments over and over again when we already gave them;
So where are your arguments, along with their supporting evidence?

Hint ~ repeating your opinion is not an argument, nor is it supporting evidence.

Quote:
Short story short - Cause of Ballance;
Where is the evidence that the current system is unbalanced? This is what we want to see, and what the OP, NightmareX and yourself have so far failed to produce.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#1192 - 2017-03-03 15:12:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Naye look in the mirror.

I've been in this thread since the start. Told nightmare and op how ganking is not just good for the economy but also makes us more engaged in the game. Shown how ganking is extremely rare as well as easily avoidable. Shown how the more ganking is nerfed the fewer subs there are im in the game not more.

On the otherside of the argument however, nothing. People have said less ganking is better for everyone, but won't say how. Say crime and punishment needs to be more realistic in some ways but not others but wont explain why it would be better gameplay. Say that ganking is easy and has no risk or punishment yet willfully ignore most of what actually happens before, during and after a gank. The otherside of the argument keeps showing that they aren't that familiar with mechanics as they think. They have lied and dodged when asked to back up what they claim.

This isn't even just a failure of backing up what you say. Nightmare can't even give us her opinion on why less ganking would be better for the game. Just keeps pretending that their proposal doesn't reduce ganking.

And you've been like this in other threads Naye. Lot's to say, but little explanation or backing up. Just circular arguments and opinion posts.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1193 - 2017-03-03 17:01:34 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:


Where is the evidence that the current system is unbalanced? This is what we want to see, and what the OP, NightmareX and yourself have so far failed to produce.


If anything it can be argued that the balance is too far in favour of the haulers, miners and mission runners these days. Just looking at the data shows the chances of getting blown up in highsec while doing these activities is very very low.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#1194 - 2017-03-03 17:38:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
baltec1 wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:


Where is the evidence that the current system is unbalanced? This is what we want to see, and what the OP, NightmareX and yourself have so far failed to produce.


If anything it can be argued that the balance is too far in favour of the haulers, miners and mission runners these days. Just looking at the data shows the chances of getting blown up in highsec while doing these activities is very very low.
There is that to consider, and you're not wrong.

The OP and his friends seem to think that the balance is skewed the other way, yet have failed to produce any analysis of the data that confirms it.

Which leaves me with 2 obvious questions.

Have they actually looked at and analysed the data?
Does the data support their claims in any way?

I think the answer to both is probably not.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#1195 - 2017-03-03 18:03:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
They definitely believe ganking doesn't come with enough consequences. But, given that its a game, i want to know why the realism they seek is good for the game. Because obviously not all realism is good or i could shoot and kill concord. And concord couldn't arrive anywhere in hisec within 20 seconds.

They believe ganking is easy, lucrative and risk free. But the loot fairy is risk whether you like it or not. The presence of anti-gankers is risk whether you like it or not. Easy, ganking is not. It takes hours of work to conduct. More than most are willing to put into it. And as for lucrative, a gankers payout is entirety dependant on the greed of other players. If you want gankers to earn less, don't carry as much. Simple as.

Edit- and they make an argument that ganking with alts is solo ganking. But then can i not also solo incursions? WH pve? Mining? FREIGHTER WEBBING? Why is it fine to multi-box other activities but when its ganking its awful?

What carries more risk: Ganking or webbing a freighter into warp?
What takes more work: Ganking or webbing a freighter into warp?


Im just saying, relatively speaking, its a doddle to avoid ganks and hauling involves little to no risk. You cannot make the case that ganking is easy and lacking in risk and at the same time say its too much work to bring a webber. You just can't.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1196 - 2017-03-03 18:40:31 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Im just saying, relatively speaking, its a doddle to avoid ganks and hauling involves little to no risk. You cannot make the case that ganking is easy and lacking in risk and at the same time say its too much work to bring a webber. You just can't.

You hit the nail on the head.

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein
DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
#1197 - 2017-03-03 18:45:20 UTC
CONCORD should impose a penalty to a system that is in High Sec Space that would reduce the amount of mining, reprocessing amounts, yields, etc. to balance out the ganking taking place.

Based on the Security Status of the system and how much ganking is taking place would determine the penalty applied. After so many hours of ganking not taking place the system would slowly return to normal.

The goal is to get Pilots engaging the gankers and providing escorts from a few systems out to hauler pilots.



I'm surprised that several corporations or even an Alliance hasn't been created to provide escorts through a gank system seeing as how the gank systems are routes traveled from common trade hubs.
DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
#1198 - 2017-03-03 18:52:39 UTC  |  Edited by: DrysonBennington
Bumping freighters and hauler INTO warp

The question is can the hauler that is on auto-pilot be bumped into its warp using small ships like cruisers?

If a hauler can be bumped out of its alignment using battleships then destroyers, frigates and cruisers that have a lot of mass and have a high velocity could possibly bump a freighter into warp without causing misalignment by repeatedly bumping the freighter from behind like a mother Orca would bump her babies to get them going.


Do Stasis Grapplers increase the Grapple to Warp variable compared to the Web to Warp variable?
Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1199 - 2017-03-03 19:00:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Hiasa Kite
Imma go with no on the use of cruisers to bump, purely because they just don't have the mass necessary to impact a freighter's trajectory, particularly when they're fighting a battleship's attempts to bump at the same time.

Now, using a fast ship to create fleet warp targets on the freighter's trajectory, that's a different matter.

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein
Dom Arkaral
Bannheim
Cuttlefish Collective
#1200 - 2017-03-03 19:00:54 UTC
DrysonBennington wrote:
Bumping freighters and hauler INTO warp

The question is can the hauler that is on auto-pilot be bumped into its warp using small ships like cruisers?

If a hauler can be bumped out of its alignment using battleships then destroyers, frigates and cruisers that have a lot of mass and have a high velocity could possibly bump a freighter into warp without causing misalignment by repeatedly bumping the freighter from behind like a mother Orca would bump her babies to get them going.


Do Stasis Grapplers increase the Grapple to Warp variable compared to the Web to Warp variable?

Grapplers are literally webs, but with an optimal and falloff
You're better using any smaller ship with Web bonuses than a bs with a grappler

Tear Gatherer. Quebecker. Has no Honer. Salt Harvester.

Broadcast 4 Reps -- YOU ARE NOT ALONE, EVER

Instigator of the First ISD Thunderdome

CCL Loyalist