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price dumping... or jacking up. I don't understand.....
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TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#21 - 2017-02-10 04:15:45 UTC
Royce Catton wrote:
I love it when they do that, free stock(in speculating you'll be able to turn over the stock), granted you'll have a lower profit margin. But I normally wait for some champ to come along and post a large supply at low price or wait for multiple people to do it. Then proceed to buy out the whole market and drive the price up and then list my reserves. I guess depending on the item you may need a lot of capital to counter like that.


Love it when someone else starts speculating in a market that I am stepping out of :D

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
Catalytic morphisis
Moonlit Marshmallow
No Therapy
#22 - 2017-02-20 19:01:40 UTC
Adiman Lutua wrote:
not unpleasant per se. i'm still making 300% roi at the lower price. preferred the 500% ROI to be honest :)


Thats why they're doing it, If you're getting a 300% ROI Chances are so are they, and they're doing it for quick turnover of goods to make maximum profit over time, rather than waiting on a higher singular profit margin

Actual Link free and scout free solo PvP'er
Kaivarian Coste
It Came From Thera
#23 - 2017-02-20 20:32:01 UTC
I've found this the case when local manufacturers can't be ****** hauling their goods to Jita, and just dump their goods locally at Jita prices. A sale's a sale, whether at Jita or someplace else.
Jack Cavanaugh
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#24 - 2017-02-21 02:02:37 UTC
Adiman Lutua wrote:
So the only real thing thats happened is these guys that made huge bites have done is wipe out profit for themselves???????


How do you know they are losing money?
Alice Wonders
Acadia Investment Group
#25 - 2017-02-23 01:42:14 UTC
Adiman Lutua wrote:

So the only real thing thats happened is these guys that made huge bites have done is wipe out profit for themselves???????


Not at all. It sounds like you have a very narrow view due to being only involved in the trading side and not in the production side of things.

Producers need to turn over their products qiuckly so that they can obtain more materials for production. For producers its about throughput speed.

Think of it this way. Why would I want to spend days 1isk trading for a 300% ROI when I could get a 10% ROI every hour by dumping? Its not the amount of ROI, its the speed that the ROI can be rolled back into the process for exponential growth.




Syds Sinclair
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2017-03-01 04:54:56 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
When someone dumps on the market ... just ignore it.

Unless you are in some hurry to cash-out, the market will right itself eventually.

If it is a new sustained low, then you might want to adjust your sell price. These tend to be gradual (baring patch speculation).


..Tau, you are usually spot on, but I couldn't disagree with you more on this one.

When trading, your object is to turn your money over quickly. Having ISK stagnate while waiting for the price that you are accustomed to to return is not turning your money over quickly. Your ISK could be making ISK in different markets instead of being tied up.

OP, few possible answers. Other traders pushing out competition. Someone liquidating a stockpile of completed production jobs. Or just buffoons being buffoons.

♠ Sinclair Consulting ♠
Scialt
Corporate Navy Police Force
Sleep Reapers
#27 - 2017-03-01 15:40:10 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
it's simply not true that "all traders" follow the 0.01 isking.

if i want ot sell my stuff quick, i undercut agressively. that way i can often sell in a day what would otherwise have taken me a week to get rid of.

that frees my money for another activity that can get me additional profit in that week.

i also often trade outside of jita. if some random scrublord moves in to make use of the established market with healthy 30% margin compared to jita i agressively drive him out of business by going right to production price +5% or so. If he starts buying my stock i simply flood the market with more than he can swallow just to make a statement. I don't even mind going to production price or even lower. i want him gone and i'm willing to pay for that.

i had someone try to enter the rig market in a lowsec pvp hub once. he stopped once i made sellorders that could have supplied jita for a week or longer.



I don't think this actually works when done with volume.

If you're dumping a weeks worth of volume and it's at a price where I'm still going to make a profit, I'm going to change my price to get ahead of you in line. It doesn't matter if it's a .1 isk change, a 5 isk change or a 1 million isk change.

It's one thing if you're putting a small amount up... I'll wait for it to clear. But I'm not going to wait a week to get revenue from the product again if I can still get good profit while lowering my price.

Profits that are realized quickly allow for reinvestment and more profits. Sitting on a product for several weeks is rarely the right call.
Syds Sinclair
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2017-03-01 18:45:51 UTC
Scialt wrote:


I don't think this actually works when done with volume.

If you're dumping a weeks worth of volume and it's at a price where I'm still going to make a profit, I'm going to change my price to get ahead of you in line. It doesn't matter if it's a .1 isk change, a 5 isk change or a 1 million isk change.

It's one thing if you're putting a small amount up... I'll wait for it to clear. But I'm not going to wait a week to get revenue from the product again if I can still get good profit while lowering my price.

Profits that are realized quickly allow for reinvestment and more profits. Sitting on a product for several weeks is rarely the right call.



..Exactly this. Your making less ISK on X but your turned more Y's over by getting rid of your product.

♠ Sinclair Consulting ♠
Scialt
Corporate Navy Police Force
Sleep Reapers
#29 - 2017-03-01 20:04:41 UTC
Syds Sinclair wrote:
Scialt wrote:


I don't think this actually works when done with volume.

If you're dumping a weeks worth of volume and it's at a price where I'm still going to make a profit, I'm going to change my price to get ahead of you in line. It doesn't matter if it's a .1 isk change, a 5 isk change or a 1 million isk change.

It's one thing if you're putting a small amount up... I'll wait for it to clear. But I'm not going to wait a week to get revenue from the product again if I can still get good profit while lowering my price.

Profits that are realized quickly allow for reinvestment and more profits. Sitting on a product for several weeks is rarely the right call.



..Exactly this. Your making less ISK on X but your turned more Y's over by getting rid of your product.


I had a discussion on the help channel a month ago with someone about this very topic. He was talking about how he drove prices down so people would follow him and then he'd gobble up the inventory from sell orders and push the price back to where it was.

I kept telling him that I loved that he did that for me. The example I gave was that if there was 50 million in profit to be had on each sell order I put up and he drove it down to 25 million in profit... but allowed me to cycle through 5 sell orders in the time normal market activity would allow me to go through one.... I'd have 125 million in profit and he'd have the other 125 million in profit... that he'd have sitting in inventory until he managed to sell it all off.

It's not total profit that matters on trading... it's profit per unit of time (hour/day/month/whatever you care to measure by).
Syds Sinclair
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2017-03-02 04:54:10 UTC
[quote=Scialt]Quality post.(/quote]

..Absolutely. It really shouldn't be that hard of a concept to grasp.

The market doesn't care if you were making 100m / transaction on your Widgets yesterday, the price today is 50m / transactions. Someone is going to make that ISK, the person at the front of the line. Are you going to be at the front happy about your 50m / transaction, or at the end of the line waiting for the "correct" price to come back.

♠ Sinclair Consulting ♠
Raven Ship
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2017-03-02 05:49:56 UTC
From my own experience and practice, there is shitload of bots on market, and they all have sefty margins set so that people would not rip them off.

So if I only see some of those 0.01isk, then will buy one unit from him to find out about his name, then make sure it is well reported as bot all over place.
After that, usually filling all buy orders, and setting huge stock of sell orders, at price generating loss for them, as lesson for those bot owners to stay away.
Syds Sinclair
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2017-03-02 06:13:39 UTC
Raven Ship wrote:
From my own experience and practice, there is shitload of bots on market, and they all have sefty margins set so that people would not rip them off.

So if I only see some of those 0.01isk, then will buy one unit from him to find out about his name, then make sure it is well reported as bot all over place.
After that, usually filling all buy orders, and setting huge stock of sell orders, at price generating loss for them, as lesson for those bot owners to stay away.



..Not sure if a troll post or not, but I'll bite.

I don't think there's as many bots as people claim. CCP is good with banning bots, and I don't know any trader that would take that chance with their ISK, especially when you consider how easy it is to make ISK on the market.

The thing is, good trading and bot activity look very similar.

♠ Sinclair Consulting ♠
Raven Ship
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2017-03-02 06:30:14 UTC
Syds Sinclair wrote:

The thing is, good trading and bot activity look very similar.


If it behave like bot, is it look like bot, if it smell like one, it is a bot, so pass over this no bot propaganda.
One thing I learned by years, is that those who use them, will negate there existence for most part.

And there are some simple and easy ways to find bots, first use google, and search for images,
that will give you a clue about what to expect from market bot, then on field you operate, make sure you see time to expire of orders present, this time do refresh each time price is changed, and in fixed values, 3months, month, and so on,
then before setting your sell order print screen market view, that is if you can't remember it,
next if any of those hurly inactive orders get updated by 0.01 below your order, go down with random number, like 54 644 378 788
another update of 0.01-10isk is confirmation of bot, as no human will bother to type it that precise.

Then as said earlier, screw this bot owner income.
Syds Sinclair
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2017-03-02 06:42:54 UTC
Raven Ship wrote:
Lots of stuff, mostly inaccurate


Alright. Keep fighting the good fight brother!

♠ Sinclair Consulting ♠
Raven Ship
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2017-03-02 06:55:48 UTC
Syds Sinclair wrote:
Raven Ship wrote:
Lots of stuff, mostly inaccurate


Alright. Keep fighting the good fight brother!


Advocating for non existence of bots will not work.
Or are you mad as your bots are exposed...

Anyway two steps check always work, let right click bot report shine now.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#36 - 2017-03-02 08:17:49 UTC
Raven Ship wrote:
Syds Sinclair wrote:

The thing is, good trading and bot activity look very similar.


If it behave like bot, is it look like bot, if it smell like one, it is a bot, so pass over this no bot propaganda.
One thing I learned by years, is that those who use them, will negate there existence for most part.

And there are some simple and easy ways to find bots, first use google, and search for images,
that will give you a clue about what to expect from market bot, then on field you operate, make sure you see time to expire of orders present, this time do refresh each time price is changed, and in fixed values, 3months, month, and so on,
then before setting your sell order print screen market view, that is if you can't remember it,
next if any of those hurly inactive orders get updated by 0.01 below your order, go down with random number, like 54 644 378 788
another update of 0.01-10isk is confirmation of bot, as no human will bother to type it that precise.

Then as said earlier, screw this bot owner income.



Please do this to my orders.

I frequently type in the random number and manually 0.01 it, or 10.01 it.

If I get a sense that you think I am a bot, I can and will fight your tactics here.

(PS - market bots exist, they are rare, and the ones that last are too well programmed to be defeated by what you suggest here; the bad ones go broke and/or get caught and banned fast)

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Bentley Goodfriend
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2017-03-02 08:25:46 UTC
Raven Ship wrote:


next if any of those hurly inactive orders get updated by 0.01 below your order, go down with random number, like 54 644 378 788
another update of 0.01-10isk is confirmation of bot, as no human will bother to type it that precise.



That is some fine exact science right there
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
#38 - 2017-03-02 08:31:16 UTC
Raven Ship wrote:
Syds Sinclair wrote:

The thing is, good trading and bot activity look very similar.


If it behave like bot, is it look like bot, if it smell like one, it is a bot, so pass over this no bot propaganda.
One thing I learned by years, is that those who use them, will negate there existence for most part.

And there are some simple and easy ways to find bots, first use google, and search for images,
that will give you a clue about what to expect from market bot, then on field you operate, make sure you see time to expire of orders present, this time do refresh each time price is changed, and in fixed values, 3months, month, and so on,
then before setting your sell order print screen market view, that is if you can't remember it,
next if any of those hurly inactive orders get updated by 0.01 below your order, go down with random number, like 54 644 378 788
another update of 0.01-10isk is confirmation of bot, as no human will bother to type it that precise.

Then as said earlier, screw this bot owner income.


I type it out precise when I want to. And people have done what you outlined in your previous post to me. Am not a bot.

Then again, I'd probably fail the Turing test, but whatever.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#39 - 2017-03-02 08:48:19 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:


Then again, I'd probably fail the Turing test, but whatever.


#StringTableError

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Bentley Goodfriend
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2017-03-02 08:49:10 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:



Please do this to my orders.

I frequently type in the random number and manually 0.01 it, or 10.01 it.

If I get a sense that you think I am a bot, I can and will fight your tactics here.

(PS - market bots exist, they are rare, and the ones that last are too well programmed to be defeated by what you suggest here; the bad ones go broke and/or get caught and banned fast)


Kindly stop applying logic, it make bot hunters very confused :-p
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