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nullsec and lowsec // carebear systems
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Wolfgang Jannesen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#81 - 2017-02-25 14:13:46 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
This has been discussed ad infinitum for half a decade now. Just flat removing local isn't a good idea, it removes the ability for players to control space they own and if you can't do that then what's the point? Based on comments CCP has made on some of the new structures and around the whole "remove local/no don't" issue it seems like any changes to local as an intel mechanic would coincide with the addition of additional intel mechanics and tools to effectively replace it.

Really? You realise real life doesnt have local and yet we have a very rich history of conflict centred around controlling territory.

You could still control it just wouldnt be ridiculously easy for your bears to avoid raiders and your pvprs would be less likely to blueball without exact counts of hostiles from every system you have an alliance member in.

EvE would be about tactics and strategy not just strategy. That could only be a good thing.


My view is slightly different, but essentially follows the same logic.

Imo, Local ID in Player Sov has a suppressive effect on conflict/competition.
Though the change itself to remove it would be small (and with precedent as in j-space) the reverberations would be profound.

As IZ points out, one of the core problems of maintaining control and borders of empires and smaller entitites, throughout IRL time, has been border reconnaissance, and intel.

It should be a necessary expenditure, both for the defender and the aggressor. You shouldnt know automatically who is there, on either defender side, or aggressor, unless you take time/effort to do so.



How does local suppress conflict? It's a tool for hunting or running away
Salvos Rhoska
#82 - 2017-02-25 14:32:44 UTC
Wolfgang Jannesen wrote:
How does local suppress conflict? It's a tool for hunting or running away


Local ID defines the potential of hunters and locals, as an overarching free source of intel of vast value for both attacker and defender, in their own sense.

The vital importance of intel is way undervalued and underrepresented in EVE, or rather taken for granted way below its value.

Data and information are the most valuable commodities in EVE.

I cannot overstate or stress this enough.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Wolfgang Jannesen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#83 - 2017-02-25 14:42:24 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Wolfgang Jannesen wrote:
How does local suppress conflict? It's a tool for hunting or running away


Local ID defines the potential of hunters and locals, as an overarching free source of intel of vast value for both attacker and defender, in their own sense.

The vital importance of intel is way undervalued and underrepresented in EVE, or rather taken for granted way below its value.

Data and information are the most valuable commodities in EVE.

I cannot overstate or stress this enough.


You'd think Intel would promote engagements. I want to know, how exactly does local suppress conflict?
Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#84 - 2017-02-25 15:00:34 UTC
I support removing local under the condition you add a functionality to my dscan that is a system wide radar that constantly scans and instantly informs me of anyone entering my system and it tells me their name so I know who they are and I can hail them by sending them messages.
Salvos Rhoska
#85 - 2017-02-25 15:03:35 UTC
Wolfgang Jannesen wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Wolfgang Jannesen wrote:
How does local suppress conflict? It's a tool for hunting or running away


Local ID defines the potential of hunters and locals, as an overarching free source of intel of vast value for both attacker and defender, in their own sense.

The vital importance of intel is way undervalued and underrepresented in EVE, or rather taken for granted way below its value.

Data and information are the most valuable commodities in EVE.

I cannot overstate or stress this enough.


You'd think Intel would promote engagements. I want to know, how exactly does local suppress conflict?


Yes, you are correct in that intel is universally valuable.

The dis-junction comes when you compare universal free intel, to subjectively acquired intel.

If intel is available to all, for free, it is still valuable, but as free and automatic, does not involve action or effort to acquire it.

Imagine if, for example, market data across EVE was not available for free and automatically.
You would have to go there, or get your data from someone else (reliable or not).
The market complexity would become fantastically opportune.

The same goes for Player Sov. Without universal Player Sov Local ID, the complexity of interaction and effort would escalate dramatically.

What is now a passive, automatic, free system, becomes a vast surface area for more conflict/interaction.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Salvos Rhoska
#86 - 2017-02-25 15:08:59 UTC
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:
I support removing local under the condition you add a functionality to my dscan that is a system wide radar that constantly scans and instantly informs me of anyone entering my system and it tells me their name so I know who they are and I can hail them by sending them messages.


Why?

J-Space denizens have existed without Local ID for years.

We can argue about the requirement to constantly hammer your d-scan, but its already been happening in j-space.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2017-02-25 16:52:09 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Wolfgang Jannesen wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Wolfgang Jannesen wrote:
How does local suppress conflict? It's a tool for hunting or running away


Local ID defines the potential of hunters and locals, as an overarching free source of intel of vast value for both attacker and defender, in their own sense.

The vital importance of intel is way undervalued and underrepresented in EVE, or rather taken for granted way below its value.

Data and information are the most valuable commodities in EVE.

I cannot overstate or stress this enough.


You'd think Intel would promote engagements. I want to know, how exactly does local suppress conflict?


Yes, you are correct in that intel is universally valuable.

The dis-junction comes when you compare universal free intel, to subjectively acquired intel.

If intel is available to all, for free, it is still valuable, but as free and automatic, does not involve action or effort to acquire it.

Imagine if, for example, market data across EVE was not available for free and automatically.
You would have to go there, or get your data from someone else (reliable or not).
The market complexity would become fantastically opportune.

The same goes for Player Sov. Without universal Player Sov Local ID, the complexity of interaction and effort would escalate dramatically.

What is now a passive, automatic, free system, becomes a vast surface area for more conflict/interaction.


From a personal perspective having been in Horde we often chose to engage or disengage or not to engage at all based on the alliances local intel network. This saved a lot of isk but of course led to a lot less interesting and dynamic pvp.

Trying to bait a fight and sneak in extra forces is close to impossible with local as theyre seen many jumps out and the target can diengage.

The result is EvEs infamous blueballing. The closest you have to no local is titan bridging.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#88 - 2017-02-25 19:30:41 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:
I support removing local under the condition you add a functionality to my dscan that is a system wide radar that constantly scans and instantly informs me of anyone entering my system and it tells me their name so I know who they are and I can hail them by sending them messages.


Why?

J-Space denizens have existed without Local ID for years.

We can argue about the requirement to constantly hammer your d-scan, but its already been happening in j-space.

Jspace doesn't have cynos, holes have time and size limits, holes have a limit on the total mass that can pass through before they collapse.

K space has none of those same limits. forces can move around much easier and jump limits on projection are slowly eroding because reasons. So jspace doesn't have local. It also has other aspects that in part compensate by limiting who can get to you and when.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Salvos Rhoska
#89 - 2017-02-26 00:46:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Cynos are irrelevant in the Local ID issue since a lit cyno is visible to all, regardless of Local ID.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Raca Pyrrea
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2017-02-26 08:55:11 UTC
EVE offers currently both play styles. j-space for those that prefer no local, k-space for those that prefer local, both if you dont care. Why is it that some people want always to force they playstyle to others?
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#91 - 2017-02-26 09:01:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Cynos are irrelevant in the Local ID issue since a lit cyno is visible to all, regardless of Local ID.

True once the cyno is lit. At that point, you're probably screwed.

Local provides an opportunity to check who enters and make a decision on whether they are likely to lead to being hotdopped, giving a chance to get the intel on who/what they hotdrop with and plan a response.

Not something that is an issue in jspace.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Salvos Rhoska
#92 - 2017-02-26 11:12:09 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Cynos are irrelevant in the Local ID issue since a lit cyno is visible to all, regardless of Local ID.

True once the cyno is lit. At that point, you're probably screwed.

Local provides an opportunity to check who enters and make a decision on whether they are likely to lead to being hotdopped, giving a chance to get the intel on who/what they hotdrop with and plan a response.

Not something that is an issue in jspace.


Its not an issue in HS either, yet Local ID exists there as well.
This logically demonstrates that the existence of Local ID is not integrally hinged on avoiding hotdropping.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Hir Miriel
Elves In Space
#93 - 2017-02-26 11:39:47 UTC
Hinrika wrote:
So can anyone here explain to me why there is a local channel in nullsec and lowsec? You can just see anyone who enters the solarsystem, even if he is cloaked or doesn't say a word? It's not realistic and removes alot of the fun from the game, having a safe haven for carebears.

I like wormholes, why can't K-space be like wormholes? It makes more sense and adds excitement and dangers.


If you desire a system that forces conflict, then you don't want people to be invisible to others that want to harm them; or as the euphemism goes, create content for them.

~ ~~ Thinking inside Schrodinger's sandbox. ~~ ~
Salvos Rhoska
#94 - 2017-02-26 11:53:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Hir Miriel wrote:
Hinrika wrote:
So can anyone here explain to me why there is a local channel in nullsec and lowsec? You can just see anyone who enters the solarsystem, even if he is cloaked or doesn't say a word? It's not realistic and removes alot of the fun from the game, having a safe haven for carebears.

I like wormholes, why can't K-space be like wormholes? It makes more sense and adds excitement and dangers.


If you desire a system that forces conflict, then you don't want people to be invisible to others that want to harm them; or as the euphemism goes, create content for them.


Local ID is more a means of avoiding conflict, than engaging in it.

There is a natural, primordial and constant difference in equity between a defender and an aggressor.
If a prey animal is instantly and automatically aware of a predator entering its territory, this clearly makes the predators purpose far more difficult, and the preys capacity to avoid the predator much better.

Furthermore there is the relationship between intents.
The aggressor enters space with fit/purpose to destroy.
The defender exists in that space with fit/ipurpose to graze on resources there.

Local ID systemically disadvantages the aggressor, in favor of the defender.

J-space demonstrates how valuable Local ID truly is to a defender, and how disadvantageous ro an aggressor.

As in nature, someone grazing on j-space resources must be constantly alert and aware of any sign of a predator.
Ears perked up to hear, smelling the wind, constantly observing its surroundings.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#95 - 2017-02-26 15:38:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Cynos are irrelevant in the Local ID issue since a lit cyno is visible to all, regardless of Local ID.

True once the cyno is lit. At that point, you're probably screwed.

Local provides an opportunity to check who enters and make a decision on whether they are likely to lead to being hotdopped, giving a chance to get the intel on who/what they hotdrop with and plan a response.

Not something that is an issue in jspace.


Its not an issue in HS either, yet Local ID exists there as well.
This logically demonstrates that the existence of Local ID is not integrally hinged on avoiding hotdropping.


But you only want to make sov null pay extra for it. Highsec is irrelevant, since you aren't seeking a change there.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Gretek Moergyn
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2017-02-26 21:32:21 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Gretek Moergyn wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Gretek Moergyn wrote:
I guess I'm the only one who is sick of the stupid and insulting name "carebear." If you want respect, how about showing some respect?

If the shoe fits.


All riiiight! Surely if you just keep insulting us hi-sec types you will convince us to come down to lo-sec and join you in the never-ending soap opera of PVP combat.

I don't care if you come or not. That's up to you.

It's certainly not my responsibility to convince you of anything, anymore than it's your responsibility to convince me of anything.

All that attitude does prove is that Carebears endlessly think that other players owe them something. We don't.


So, why the name-calling? Why do you need to label someone just because they play the game differently than you? Why the contempt?

I assume all of us play EVE because we enjoy it.

No, you don't owe me or anyone else anything. But here's a revolutionary idea: respect your fellow gamer, treat him or her the way you want to be treated, respect different styles of play, and all of us will get more enjoyment out of this wonderful science fiction universe.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#97 - 2017-02-26 21:47:59 UTC
Gretek Moergyn wrote:
No, you don't owe me or anyone else anything. But here's a revolutionary idea: respect your fellow gamer, treat him or her the way you want to be treated, respect different styles of play, and all of us will get more enjoyment out of this wonderful science fiction universe.

Here's also the thing, implied in your statement, is that the respect should only go one way, that somehow you have more of a right to your playstyle than someone else does.

It's not an equality you are seeking. If it were, the only position to take would be, each person should have responsibility for themselves and what happens to them in game. There would be no need to suggest that if people in low and null want to encourage more people into those areas, they should be more accommodating - ie. they should show more respect for the playstyle of others, but the reverse isn't required.

So, as if often the case with these things, if you want to be shown respect and not labelled a Carebear, then take responsibility for your own safety and welcome the possibility that people might shoot at you, then take steps so it doesn't happen. Don't come here and complain about labels, respect and how people should encourage you.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Gretek Moergyn
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#98 - 2017-02-27 02:10:05 UTC
Oh, I do indeed take responsibility for my own safety by not coming into lo-sec space. Simple. Since I returned to EVE after being gone for many years I have never been attacked and I know I never will be, because players like you only attack when they know they will win. There is no easy prey for you in 1.0.

And if you REALLY think my position is that respect should only go my way, you have not read anything I have written on the topic. But that's the internet for you: endlessly circling arguments perpetuated by people who put words into the mouths of others and don't take the trouble to read thoroughly before they comment.

It must be an age thing. Oh well. I'm done with this thread. Have fun!
Salvos Rhoska
#99 - 2017-02-27 07:24:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Cynos are irrelevant in the Local ID issue since a lit cyno is visible to all, regardless of Local ID.

True once the cyno is lit. At that point, you're probably screwed.

Local provides an opportunity to check who enters and make a decision on whether they are likely to lead to being hotdopped, giving a chance to get the intel on who/what they hotdrop with and plan a response.

Not something that is an issue in jspace.


Its not an issue in HS either, yet Local ID exists there as well.
This logically demonstrates that the existence of Local ID is not integrally hinged on avoiding hotdropping.


But you only want to make sov null pay extra for it. Highsec is irrelevant, since you aren't seeking a change there.


Because Player Sov can be owned. HS cannot.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#100 - 2017-03-01 03:48:41 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Cynos are irrelevant in the Local ID issue since a lit cyno is visible to all, regardless of Local ID.

True once the cyno is lit. At that point, you're probably screwed.

Local provides an opportunity to check who enters and make a decision on whether they are likely to lead to being hotdopped, giving a chance to get the intel on who/what they hotdrop with and plan a response.

Not something that is an issue in jspace.


Its not an issue in HS either, yet Local ID exists there as well.
This logically demonstrates that the existence of Local ID is not integrally hinged on avoiding hotdropping.


But you only want to make sov null pay extra for it. Highsec is irrelevant, since you aren't seeking a change there.


Because Player Sov can be owned. HS cannot.

Well then, this should be flipped on its head.

Intel should only be available to the owners of space, no one else.

Give Intel to sov owners in null and CODE in highsec. Probably to Waffles in Kinnaka, Escalating Entropy in Vey, Shadow Cartel in Aeschee. PL wherever PL have their current NPC null home, because you go tell any of them that they don't own those system. There's more to ownership than a TCU.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."