These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

High Sec Ganking - CONCORD Balance request

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#681 - 2017-02-27 09:44:54 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Nat Silverguard wrote:
Actually, no darling.

key word here is 'intellegent', do you really think that intellegent JF pilots that understand EvE and love this game would ask more safety and at the same time kill a legit gameplay?

I consider myself intelligent and I ask for more consequences to ganking, not more safety for haulers. That's a big difference. Right now, there are no tangible consequences for ganking whatsoever: A ganker can keep docking in NPC stations, a ganker can keep stocking assets in NPC stations, a ganker can keep docking in an NPC station although he just killed another guy that is in that NPC corp, a ganker can just drop to any NPC corp in case of war decs and keep killing people and people in that same NPC corp. There are no consequences to their gameplay that matter (no, facpo does not matter, neither does their low sec status or killrights because they are only docked most of the time and only undocked for mere minutes or seconds).

Naturally, players should be responsible for punishing them but at the moment there is no feasible way to actually do that. That is something that ought to change, for instance, in form of lockouts from NPC stations and the "encouragement" to use player built structures that you can at least engage. It does not provide more safety for haulers, but actual consequences for gankers.

Blackpedro, I do not see that edge case as an issue at all. Ganking is a very conscious action because you actually have to enable the gank mode (safeties set to red). By consciously doing that, you know what will happen. Or should, because at the moment it is not all that well explained what can happen to you. Perhaps if an NPC lockout thing actually got implemented, this should be explained in more detail in the NPE/tooltips when you enable red safety.


We don't need more "consequenes" to ganking freighters. The problem has absolutely nothing to do with game mechanics or balance, but with player actions.

An idiot player puts 6 billion ISK worth of cargo into his freighter. He has created a prime ganking opportunity by his actions.

Let me repeat that, a player who puts 6 billion ISK into a freighter has created a prime ganking opportunity.

If the freighter pilot did not create this ganking opportunity there would be no ganking opportunity.

Yes, yes, the odd empty freighter might get ganked, but that is the exception not the norm. I have gone to Zkill and looked. Once i remove LS and NS freighters, and freighters with clearly double wrapped courier packages there are only overloaded freighters and the odd empty freighter.

So I repeat, the ganking opportunity is created by the player that is ganked. I have shown this in this thread here. In the end nobody disagreed with my point. If you are imprudent and you get ganked you really have nobody to blame but yourself.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#682 - 2017-02-27 09:45:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
I agree that more opposition for gankers may be a good thing, and that it should come from other players and not mechanics. That opposition could come in many forms, one of which is not doing dumb stuff with a freighter, another is anti ganking getting their act together.

What I don't agree with is the sort of one more nerf via game mechanics bullshit that the OP and NightmareX are trumpeting as a solution to ganking, that is the antithesis of Eve.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#683 - 2017-02-27 09:45:27 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
You can't tell if a freighter pilot is dumb or smart by looking at the killboard.
Actually, you can.

Triple cargo expanders is a good sign of being dumb, triple bulkheads is a good sign of being smart; and then there's the cargo, and its value.

So what you are saying is that a freighter can't fit up the freighter as a freighter, but rather as a speed boat instead?

OK.


speed boat? Straight

since when bulkheads make your JF fast? What?

Just Add Water
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#684 - 2017-02-27 09:48:14 UTC
Nat Silverguard wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
You can't tell if a freighter pilot is dumb or smart by looking at the killboard.
Actually, you can.

Triple cargo expanders is a good sign of being dumb, triple bulkheads is a good sign of being smart; and then there's the cargo, and its value.

So what you are saying is that a freighter can't fit up the freighter as a freighter, but rather as a speed boat instead?

OK.


speed boat? Straight

since when bulkheads make your JF fast? What?


It makes you enter warp faster (aka speed mods) over actually using the freighter as a freighter.

So i'm not sure, but you don't seems to be smart by suggesting that a freighter can't use the intended modules for a freighter before they can be smart?

Again, OKRoll.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#685 - 2017-02-27 09:51:58 UTC
NightmareX wrote:

It makes you enter warp faster (aka speed mods) over actually using the freighter as a freighter.

So i'm not sure, but you don't seems to be smart by suggesting that a freighter can't use the intended modules for a freighter before they can be smart?

Again, OKRoll.


Wow....how long have you been playing.

A freighter will never enter warp "fast". I don't care how you fit it. It will always be a slow and cumbersome ship. As such, you should tank it with bulkheads. You don't have to be the fastest you just have to be less desirable than the dummy next to your. If he has as much cargo and anti-tanks his freighter you will have a good chance of getting through while he won't.

Cripes...why am I explaining this?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Lugh Crow-Slave
#686 - 2017-02-27 09:52:24 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Nat Silverguard wrote:
Actually, no darling.

key word here is 'intellegent', do you really think that intellegent JF pilots that understand EvE and love this game would ask more safety and at the same time kill a legit gameplay?

I consider myself intelligent and I ask for more consequences to ganking, not more safety for haulers. That's a big difference. Right now, there are no tangible consequences for ganking whatsoever: A ganker can keep docking in NPC stations, a ganker can keep stocking assets in NPC stations, a ganker can keep docking in an NPC station although he just killed another guy that is in that NPC corp, a ganker can just drop to any NPC corp in case of war decs and keep killing people and people in that same NPC corp. There are no consequences to their gameplay that matter (no, facpo does not matter, neither does their low sec status or killrights because they are only docked most of the time and only undocked for mere minutes or seconds).

Naturally, players should be responsible for punishing them but at the moment there is no feasible way to actually do that. That is something that ought to change, for instance, in form of lockouts from NPC stations and the "encouragement" to use player built structures that you can at least engage. It does not provide more safety for haulers, but actual consequences for gankers.

Blackpedro, I do not see that edge case as an issue at all. Ganking is a very conscious action because you actually have to enable the gank mode (safeties set to red). By consciously doing that, you know what will happen. Or should, because at the moment it is not all that well explained what can happen to you. Perhaps if an NPC lockout thing actually got implemented, this should be explained in more detail in the NPE/tooltips when you enable red safety.




why? why should HS ganking carry with it more even consequences enforced by the game than anyplace else? why should player X's gameplay be subject to even more arbitrary consequences then it already is just because YOU don't like it.

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#687 - 2017-02-27 09:53:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
NightmareX wrote:
Nat Silverguard wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
You can't tell if a freighter pilot is dumb or smart by looking at the killboard.
Actually, you can.

Triple cargo expanders is a good sign of being dumb, triple bulkheads is a good sign of being smart; and then there's the cargo, and its value.

So what you are saying is that a freighter can't fit up the freighter as a freighter, but rather as a speed boat instead?

OK.


speed boat? Straight

since when bulkheads make your JF fast? What?


It makes you enter warp faster (aka speed mods) over actually using the freighter as a freighter.

So i'm not sure, but you don't seems to be smart by suggesting that a freighter can't use the intended modules for a freighter before they can be smart?

Again, OKRoll.
Your ignorance is showing again, reinforced bulkheads make the ship slower to enter warp, they reduce agility which increases align times.

The plus point is that they substantially increase hull hitpoints, which is where most of the hitpoints are on an unfitted freighter.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Lugh Crow-Slave
#688 - 2017-02-27 09:53:47 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
NightmareX wrote:

It makes you enter warp faster (aka speed mods) over actually using the freighter as a freighter.

So i'm not sure, but you don't seems to be smart by suggesting that a freighter can't use the intended modules for a freighter before they can be smart?

Again, OKRoll.


Wow....how long have you been playing.

A freighter will never enter warp "fast". I don't care how you fit it. It will always be a slow and cumbersome ship. As such, you should tank it with bulkheads. You don't have to be the fastest you just have to be less desirable than the dummy next to your. If he has as much cargo and anti-tanks his freighter you will have a good chance of getting through while he won't.

Cripes...why am I explaining this?



not true your best bet is to insta warp it. you used to be able to tank providence before the hull resist changes but now most groups will have enough to kill a tanked ob

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#689 - 2017-02-27 09:54:38 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Wow....how long have you been playing.

A freighter will never enter warp "fast". I don't care how you fit it. It will always be a slow and cumbersome ship. As such, you should tank it with bulkheads. You don't have to be the fastest you just have to be less desirable than the dummy next to your. If he has as much cargo and anti-tanks his freighter you will have a good chance of getting through while he won't.

Cripes...why am I explaining this?

Was there something in the word 'FASTER' that was hard for you to understand?

Being fast and being faster is not the same thing. Just saying.

And i have told you earlier on how long time i have been playing, but you seems to have memory issues remembering what i'm saying to you, so i'm gonna bother telling you the same thing over and over again.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Black Pedro
Mine.
#690 - 2017-02-27 09:56:25 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Naturally, players should be responsible for punishing them but at the moment there is no feasible way to actually do that. That is something that ought to change, for instance, in form of lockouts from NPC stations and the "encouragement" to use player built structures that you can at least engage. It does not provide more safety for haulers, but actual consequences for gankers.

Blackpedro, I do not see that edge case as an issue at all. Ganking is a very conscious action because you actually have to enable the gank mode (safeties set to red). By consciously doing that, you know what will happen. Or should, because at the moment it is not all that well explained what can happen to you. Perhaps if an NPC lockout thing actually got implemented, this should be explained in more detail in the NPE/tooltips when you enable red safety.
New players can easily trash their security status without meaning to. They can go join faction warfare and pod too many people, or shoot a pod or two in highsec and end up locked out from their stuff with no warning.

But I agree with you. I am just saying locking out new players (and even older or returning players) is one thing on the long list of things CCP has to worry about, as like always there are unintended consequences and effects when messing with core game systems. Creating player-owned pirate hideaways would be awesome. The player pirates should be able to defend their stations however without the faction police getting involved, but none of these problems are insurmountable. It just isn't a simple change.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#691 - 2017-02-27 09:57:10 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
NightmareX wrote:

It makes you enter warp faster (aka speed mods) over actually using the freighter as a freighter.

So i'm not sure, but you don't seems to be smart by suggesting that a freighter can't use the intended modules for a freighter before they can be smart?

Again, OKRoll.

Your ignorance is showing again, reinforced bulkheads make the ship slower to enter warp, they reduce agility which increases align times.


My God...and now we are explaining basic game mechanics to 12 year veterans....WITF?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#692 - 2017-02-27 09:58:36 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Your ignorance is showing again, reinforced bulkheads make the ship slower to enter warp, they reduce agility which increases align times.

Whatever dude. You knows pretty well what i'm talking about. A freighter is about moving stuffs and not to lessen it's cargo spaces.

They are supposed to have ton of cargo spaces to move things. Which is their whole point.

Not only that, but if every freighters starts to use reinforced bulkheads, then it wont matter as the gankers will just bring more gankers to make sure they die anyways.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#693 - 2017-02-27 10:00:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
NightmareX wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
]Your ignorance is showing again, reinforced bulkheads make the ship slower to enter warp, they reduce agility which increases align times.

Whatever dude. You knows pretty well what i'm talking about. A freighter is about moving stuffs and not to lessen it's cargo spaces.

They are supposed to have ton of cargo spaces to move things. Which is their whole point.

Not only that, but if every freighters starts to use reinforced bulkheads, then it wont matter as the gankers will just bring more gankers to make sure they die anyways.
Are you utterly incapable of admitting that you're wrong?

This isn't the first time we've had to correct you on how stuff works, incidentally you still haven't managed to show that you understand how Crimewatch works, neither has the OP.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#694 - 2017-02-27 10:01:34 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Wow....how long have you been playing.

A freighter will never enter warp "fast". I don't care how you fit it. It will always be a slow and cumbersome ship. As such, you should tank it with bulkheads. You don't have to be the fastest you just have to be less desirable than the dummy next to your. If he has as much cargo and anti-tanks his freighter you will have a good chance of getting through while he won't.

Cripes...why am I explaining this?

Was there something in the word 'FASTER' that was hard for you to understand?

Being fast and being faster is not the same thing. Just saying.

And i have told you earlier on how long time i have been playing, but you seems to have memory issues remembering what i'm saying to you, so i'm gonna bother telling you the same thing over and over again.


No freighter goes into warp "fast enough" to avoid being bumped if you are over-stuffed and the only guy on field, unless you have a scout who has webs.

But then you maintain using webs is not good game design so we can toss that.

So you anti-tank your ship to enter warp faster and all you do is make it easier to gank.

Good job. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Lugh Crow-Slave
#695 - 2017-02-27 10:01:53 UTC
NightmareX wrote:

Not only that, but if every freighters starts to use reinforced bulkheads, then it wont matter as the gankers will just bring more gankers to make sure they die anyways.



doesn't that mean they lose more ships?

isn't that adding to the consequence of ganking you? wasn't that the point?



or is the point really that you want to make ganking so difficult you don't have to deal with it?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#696 - 2017-02-27 10:02:32 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
]Your ignorance is showing again, reinforced bulkheads make the ship slower to enter warp, they reduce agility which increases align times.

Whatever dude. You knows pretty well what i'm talking about. A freighter is about moving stuffs and not to lessen it's cargo spaces.

They are supposed to have ton of cargo spaces to move things. Which is their whole point.

Not only that, but if every freighters starts to use reinforced bulkheads, then it wont matter as the gankers will just bring more gankers to make sure they die anyways.
Are you utterly incapable of admitting that you're wrong?

Did you answer me on the fact that the gankers will just bring even more gankers to gank a freighter if they see that it has reinforced bulkheads?

So you can some with whatever lame excuse you want, but some reinforced bulkheads wont save anyone in a freighter from being ganked if the gankers uses their brains.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#697 - 2017-02-27 10:03:29 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
NightmareX wrote:

Not only that, but if every freighters starts to use reinforced bulkheads, then it wont matter as the gankers will just bring more gankers to make sure they die anyways.



doesn't that mean they lose more ships?

isn't that adding to the consequence of ganking you? wasn't that the point?



or is the point really that you want to make ganking so difficult you don't have to deal with it?

Doesn't matter as they will still make profits out of it and still be able to do their crimes without any more consequences to their actions.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Lugh Crow-Slave
#698 - 2017-02-27 10:04:05 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Wow....how long have you been playing.

A freighter will never enter warp "fast". I don't care how you fit it. It will always be a slow and cumbersome ship. As such, you should tank it with bulkheads. You don't have to be the fastest you just have to be less desirable than the dummy next to your. If he has as much cargo and anti-tanks his freighter you will have a good chance of getting through while he won't.

Cripes...why am I explaining this?

Was there something in the word 'FASTER' that was hard for you to understand?

Being fast and being faster is not the same thing. Just saying.

And i have told you earlier on how long time i have been playing, but you seems to have memory issues remembering what i'm saying to you, so i'm gonna bother telling you the same thing over and over again.


No freighter goes into warp "fast enough" to avoid being bumped if you are over-stuffed and the only guy on field, unless you have a scout who has webs.

But then you maintain using webs is not good game design so we can toss that.

So you anti-tank your ship to enter warp faster and all you do is make it easier to gank.

Good job. Roll



lol he said using webs was poor game design?

even if it wasn't original intended i find it to be great its a powerful way to help a friend using a tool that already existed in the game originally meant to make it easier to kill. stuff like this is why eve's sandbox is great

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#699 - 2017-02-27 10:05:36 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
NightmareX wrote:

Not only that, but if every freighters starts to use reinforced bulkheads, then it wont matter as the gankers will just bring more gankers to make sure they die anyways.


doesn't that mean they lose more ships?

isn't that adding to the consequence of ganking you? wasn't that the point?

or is the point really that you want to make ganking so difficult you don't have to deal with it?


And they won't be able to gank as often. If they needed say 15 guys in fleet on average, and everyone starts tanking their freighter an they need 22 guys in fleet they can't gank until they get guy number 22.

Sheesh.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#700 - 2017-02-27 10:05:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
NightmareX wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
]Your ignorance is showing again, reinforced bulkheads make the ship slower to enter warp, they reduce agility which increases align times.

Whatever dude. You knows pretty well what i'm talking about. A freighter is about moving stuffs and not to lessen it's cargo spaces.

They are supposed to have ton of cargo spaces to move things. Which is their whole point.

Not only that, but if every freighters starts to use reinforced bulkheads, then it wont matter as the gankers will just bring more gankers to make sure they die anyways.
Are you utterly incapable of admitting that you're wrong?

Did you answer me on the fact that the gankers will just bring even more gankers to gank a freighter if they see that it has reinforced bulkheads?

So you can some with whatever lame excuse you want, but some reinforced bulkheads wont save anyone in a freighter from being ganked if the gankers uses their brains.
No need to answer because it's a hypothetical that will never happen, greed and laziness being an all too common trait amongst people who do stupid stuff with freighters.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack