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High Sec Ganking - CONCORD Balance request

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#521 - 2017-02-27 01:39:40 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
All that is needed are more clever and smarter pilots that needs to work a bit harder to be able to keep ganking.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

All that is needed for gankers to have to work harder is for freighter pilots to stop being morons and start to fly like they're clever and smart people.


Again not empty quoting.

Why is it outrageous to expect the freighter pilots to actually manage their risk?

Nope instead, we'll change the mechanics. Stomp on non-gankers with negative sec status...all in the name of helping out players who won't even thank you for it. Chances are they'll just load up all that more stuff into their freighters and when a 30 billion freighter is ganked, the OP will be back here complaining that Goons are bad.

Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#522 - 2017-02-27 01:39:48 UTC
Wander Prian wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Not true. What if one commits their criminal acts in LS? You want to effectively lock them out too. And maybe you should re-read the OP.

If their crimes have been done in low sec, things should be like it is now. Nothing is needed to be changed there. We are however talking about the crimes you have done in HIGH SEC.

Then it will be something else.


Last I checked, it was about criminals in general. Nowhere does it state it only applies to crimes commited in highsec. That would basically make 2 different kinds of criminals, while both would have the same standing. Which would mean a special-case coding, which is terribly crude and CCP doesn't like doing that, meaning not gonna happen (This is just a "what if" since I've yet to see zero proof of this "issue")


Crimes are crimes if the system you are in says they are crimes. Although pirating in lowsec is a popular thing to do, the game wants to discourage your from podding in lowsec and attacking people unless you have reason to on gates and stations.


The game also discourages you from shooting another in highsec, unless you are at war or they have a suspect/criminal timer or a low enough sec-status. The players also discourage hauling too expensive amounts of loot in a single ship by suicide-ganking ships, yet for some reason, the haulers just keep packing it all in to one ship time and again...


Maybe its because freighters are so expensive, contracts collaterals are so high, that is the only way to make anything decent. Which for the risk being taken its all **** income if you ask me.
Lei YingLu
Designated Drivers
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#523 - 2017-02-27 01:39:52 UTC
@OP
So using this weekend as I'm assuming that is mostly what you are referring to in relation to the post and comments. But for arguments sake, how many of those freighters that died this weekend were triple bulkhead fit?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#524 - 2017-02-27 01:42:18 UTC
Erich Einstein wrote:


Maybe its because freighters are so expensive, contracts collaterals are so high, that is the only way to make anything decent. Which for the risk being taken its all **** income if you ask me.


Seems like Red Frog does all right though.

Manage your risk. That is a major component of this game. It is a competitive game. If you do not manage your risk well others will take advantage of it.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#525 - 2017-02-27 01:43:18 UTC
Lei YingLu wrote:
@OP
So using this weekend as I'm assuming that is mostly what you are referring to in relation to the post and comments. But for arguments sake, how many of those freighters that died this weekend were triple bulkhead fit?


You should pretty much always triple bulkhead fit your freighter if it is empty, IMO.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dom Arkaral
Bannheim
Cuttlefish Collective
#526 - 2017-02-27 01:43:20 UTC
27 pages XD
tl;dr of the past 20 or so?

Tear Gatherer. Quebecker. Has no Honer. Salt Harvester.

Broadcast 4 Reps -- YOU ARE NOT ALONE, EVER

Instigator of the First ISD Thunderdome

CCL Loyalist
Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#527 - 2017-02-27 01:44:01 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:


Sure, for the average pilot it sounds like enough, but for a career ganker, those things mean nothing to them. None of that stuff bothers their agenda one bit.


It was requests like yours that gave us career gankers.


No its the massive cost of ships and battles in low and null sec that gave us gankers. People would rather steal isk for plex and ships than pay for it. Its just that the stealing is out of hand because ganking is to easy / uncontrolled and freighter pilots have to take on massive risk to make a minimal profit.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#528 - 2017-02-27 01:44:09 UTC
Dom Arkaral wrote:
27 pages XD
tl;dr of the past 20 or so?
one more nerf will fix ganking.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#529 - 2017-02-27 01:44:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Dom Arkaral wrote:
27 pages XD
tl;dr of the past 20 or so?


The OP wants less ganking. Wants people with low sec status (see the OP for details) essentially locked out of HS, and doesn't have a clue about risk vs. reward.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#530 - 2017-02-27 01:44:25 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
All that is needed are more clever and smarter pilots that needs to work a bit harder to be able to keep ganking.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

All that is needed for gankers to have to work harder is for freighter pilots to stop being morons and start to fly like they're clever and smart people.

No, YOU as the ganker is the ones that has to work harder for keep doing the ganking as the consequences / penalties will rise the more you do it, because you are a criminal. The freighter pilots shouldn't do anything more than what he have to do now for doing their business as they are doing everything within the law / rules in high sec. So it's logic that they should have it more easier than criminals in high sec.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#531 - 2017-02-27 01:44:55 UTC
Dom Arkaral wrote:
27 pages XD
tl;dr of the past 20 or so?


you can think Teckos Pech for that... He like hearing himself talk.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#532 - 2017-02-27 01:45:18 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Dom Arkaral wrote:
27 pages XD
tl;dr of the past 20 or so?
one more nerf.


An even better summary.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#533 - 2017-02-27 01:47:22 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Teckos Pech wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
All that is needed are more clever and smarter pilots that needs to work a bit harder to be able to keep ganking.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

All that is needed for gankers to have to work harder is for freighter pilots to stop being morons and start to fly like they're clever and smart people.


Again not empty quoting.

Why is it outrageous to expect the freighter pilots to actually manage their risk?

Nope instead, we'll change the mechanics. Stomp on non-gankers with negative sec status...all in the name of helping out players who won't even thank you for it. Chances are they'll just load up all that more stuff into their freighters and when a 30 billion freighter is ganked, the OP will be back here complaining that Goons are bad.

Roll

How does my idea of the said criminal system i have been talking about prevents the freighters from being ganked any lesser or make it a lesser risk of getting ganked?

Didn't i just talk about that the gankers is the only one that will get a harder time doing the gankings the more they do it?

I have never said anything about making it more impossible to do ganking. All that's been said from me is that the gankers has to work much harder to be able to keep doing their crimes with the new system. That's all.

But you are to stubborn to actually see this. So please go on with your trolling.
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Dom Arkaral wrote:
27 pages XD
tl;dr of the past 20 or so?
one more nerf will fix ganking.

Or balance it more.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#534 - 2017-02-27 01:49:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Erich Einstein
Lei YingLu wrote:
@OP
So using this weekend as I'm assuming that is mostly what you are referring to in relation to the post and comments. But for arguments sake, how many of those freighters that died this weekend were triple bulkhead fit?


Check my corp and twitch videos and see what I do on the daily. I by all means am excluding this past burn jita event from the OP. This goon ganking (and I mean big fleets, not little miner ganking) has gone on repeatedly for for the last few month. Sure there has always been ganking, but goons are taking it to a new level staging out of Jita V - moon 17 station. Nothing to do with burn jita event. I havnt even logged in since the burn Jita event started.

Look up all of the people who operate from that staging area on zkill and you will see just how much ganking isk they are getting away with. Follow them for a day and you will see just how hard it is to prevent anything they are doing. AG cant even prevent a freighter from being bumped without going criminal and just have to watch freighters burn to the ground like they are frigates.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#535 - 2017-02-27 01:49:51 UTC
Erich Einstein wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:


Sure, for the average pilot it sounds like enough, but for a career ganker, those things mean nothing to them. None of that stuff bothers their agenda one bit.


It was requests like yours that gave us career gankers.


No its the massive cost of ships and battles in low and null sec that gave us gankers. People would rather steal isk for plex and ships than pay for it. Its just that the stealing is out of hand because ganking is to easy / uncontrolled and freighter pilots have to take on massive risk to make a minimal profit.


No, you are wrong and don't know the games history.

It was possible to gank in t1 fit battle ships because the suicide ganker would get insurance from CONCORD killing his ship. However, ganking was far more desultory. It happened, but wasn't nearly as organized/professional as it is now. As there were more and more nerfs suicide ganking of freighters became more and more organized and techniques refined to where it is now.

Wars in NS have nothing to do with it. NS alliances would bring in a crap ton of ISK with moon mining, rental empires, and taxes from things like POCOs and ratting. Plus alliances like Goons really know how to work the markets.

Miniluv is a profit center, but that is not what Goons need. If CCP eliminated ganking tomorrow Goons would still be filthy stinking rich.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#536 - 2017-02-27 01:51:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
NightmareX wrote:
No, YOU as the ganker is the ones that has to work harder for keep doing the ganking as the consequences / penalties will rise the more you do it, because you are a criminal.
The gankers already work hard in order to continue ganking because most of them have a sec status that attracts the attention of the faction police and opens them up to attack from anybody.

Quote:
The freighter pilots shouldn't do anything more than what he have to do now for doing his business.
That's the point, most of them aren't doing anything at all beyond undocking and hitting autopilot, they're mindless morons.

What you and the OP want to do is punish people who have to work hard to achieve their goals, and simultaneously reward those that do nothing but the absolute bare minimum required.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#537 - 2017-02-27 01:53:18 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
No, YOU as the ganker is the ones that has to work harder for keep doing the ganking as the consequences / penalties will rise the more you do it, because you are a criminal.
The gankers already work hard in order to continue ganking because most of them have a sec status that attracts the attention of the faction police and opens them up to attack from anybody.

Quote:
The freighter pilots shouldn't do anything more than what he have to do now for doing his business.
That's the point, most of them aren't doing anything at all beyond undocking and hitting autopilot.

What you and the OP want to do is punish people who have to work hard to achieve their goals, and simultaneously reward those that do nothing but the absolute bare minimum required.

No they don't. They just jump into a new ship and fit it up and does the same crime over and over. Such hard work right there, right?

No, we want to let EVE punish the criminals who break the rules of high sec harder and harder the more crimes they do, like everyone would do.

And read my edit about what the freighter pilots has to do as i edited it after you started to answer me on it.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#538 - 2017-02-27 01:53:48 UTC
NightmareX wrote:

How does my idea of the said criminal system i have been talking about prevents the freighters from being ganked any lesser or make it a lesser risk of getting ganked?


Really you need me to spell it out for you?

Okay.

Lots of gankers have -10 status. They'd have to, at a minimum stop ganking and go to NS to repair their status or use tags, which would be quite an ISK burden. So that would likely necessitate additional income. This would mean more time ratting or other ISK making opportunities or limiting freighter ganking to more economically viable ones. Either way....the overall effect is less ganking.

Bottom line: make something more costly (in terms of ISK, time, or both) you tend to get less of it.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Lei YingLu
Designated Drivers
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#539 - 2017-02-27 01:57:15 UTC
Erich Einstein wrote:
Lei YingLu wrote:
@OP
So using this weekend as I'm assuming that is mostly what you are referring to in relation to the post and comments. But for arguments sake, how many of those freighters that died this weekend were triple bulkhead fit?


Check my corp and twitch videos and see what I do on the daily. I by all means am excluding this past burn jita event from the OP. This goon ganking (and I mean big fleets, not little miner ganking) has gone on repeatedly for for the last few month. Sure there has always been ganking, but goons are taking it to a new level staging out of Jita V - moon 17 station. Nothing to do with burn jita event. I havnt even logged in since the burn Jita event started.

Look up all of the people who operate from that staging area on zkill and you will see just how much ganking isk they are getting away with. Follow them for a day and you will see just how hard it is to prevent anything they are doing. AG cant even prevent a freighter from being bumped without going criminal and just have to watch freighters burn to the ground like they are frigates.


If you wouldnt mind, could you please reference me to a few kills?
Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#540 - 2017-02-27 01:57:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Erich Einstein
Teckos Pech wrote:
NightmareX wrote:

How does my idea of the said criminal system i have been talking about prevents the freighters from being ganked any lesser or make it a lesser risk of getting ganked?


Really you need me to spell it out for you?

Okay.

Lots of gankers have -10 status. They'd have to, at a minimum stop ganking and go to NS to repair their status or use tags, which would be quite an ISK burden. So that would likely necessitate additional income. This would mean more time ratting or other ISK making opportunities or limiting freighter ganking to more economically viable ones. Either way....the overall effect is less ganking.

Bottom line: make something more costly (in terms of ISK, time, or both) you tend to get less of it.


Thats the point of the OP... Im glad you understand finally. They would be taking responsibility for their criminal actions if they want to play in highsec criminally all day long.