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High Sec Ganking - CONCORD Balance request

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Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#321 - 2017-02-26 22:55:56 UTC
Lei YingLu wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


We can look at RFF and we see that traditionally they fail very few contracts. Some are failed due to suicide ganks. So, prudent players will likely be fine more than 99% of the time.



I believe that you can use Red Frog's data but you have to look at much more than that to get the whole picture. Go to their website. Plastered on the front page it reads Burn Jita is in effect. They are well aware that if they bring a freighter/jump freighter to Jita it's probably going to die to the player ran event. I like to call this situational awareness. Beyond that look at Red Frog's FAQ. They have standard operating procedures that they follow. More than likely these things are going to keep them from becoming a loot pinyata.

CCP Phantom also provided us with guidance as far as conduct in Eve HERE


* You consent to PvP when you click "undock".

* You are not safe in 1.0 security space. CONCORD is there to punish, not to protect. Get used to the idea.

You want to talk about the mechanics being different for those who are career criminals once they go negative to a certain point. That is already in effect. The faction police spawn and will kill your ship if you stay in one place for too long and/or if you are too slow to get into warp, you ship will be blown up.


As many people have pointed out... the issue is not CONCORD, its faction police and the security status system.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#322 - 2017-02-26 22:56:55 UTC
Erich Einstein wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
I'll also add that Erich Einstein's idea is bad because it is having NPCs do what the players should be doing. The player should be managing their risk in an appropriate manner. In fact, that is a nice thing about EVE. It teaches on, rather quickly and often rather harshly about mismanaging your risk. This is not a game about having CCP hold people's hands via NPCs. The suggested idea, IMO, moves us in that direction where Erich Einstein intended it to or not.


Other players should not be monitoring people's security status and controlling the baseline level of security that is highsec. That is the job of the NPC's. Players are only responsible for their own safety but that doesnt mean that NPC activity doesnt need balancing.


They don't have too. All they have to do is manage their own risk an they'll be fine. A criminal is much less able to inflict harm on you if you manage your risk appropriately.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#323 - 2017-02-26 23:00:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Erich Einstein wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


Oh Great Ignorant One....

Zkill gives half the picture. The half where there were actual suicide ganks. It tells us nothing about how many freighters move around HS unmolested.

You are talking out of ignorance. You want to make a change, out of ignorance.



Again, its not about the targets... its about how gankers are able to operate in highsec due to certain mechanics in the game. Refer to the OP.


No, it would be about the rate of ganking dingaling.

If your unconditional probability of getting ganked is say 10% you might have something. But we don't know. We can look at RFF's numbers and draw some inferences....

1. Are RFF pilots generally prudent--i.e. do they use scouts, webs, tank when possible, and not carry too much?
2. We know RFF fails very few contracts...which is why people use them.

Based on 1 being true and given 2 we can conclude with some degree of confidence that the conditional probability of being ganked is very, very low. That is if you are prudent your probability of being ganked is less than 1%.

So all your bleating about Goons ganking all the things is simply not true.

Since you are basing your argument on these bleatings your argument does not have a base...no foundation.

Now you are starting to recognize it and shift over to "all criminals" because you realize your initial position was flawed. You are insistent on your beliefs and will move the goal posts to ensure you do not have to change your beliefs.


So if I go to zkill, since you are unwilling, and provide you with all the links for every gank by the gank team out of jita V - moon 17 in the last month and you see just how much they are abusing the system... then you are going to agree with me right. If I remember right, Redfrog freighters are not part of a particular corp, they do this particularly because of war deccing. So there is no way to guage accurately how many freighters they lose. Given that, we would RedFrog report that they lose freighters on the daily.


Stop being an ass. I have gone to zkill and looked at freighter kills. In fact, in threads like this I'm one of the one's who does that kind of thing and posts numbers.

My point is if you are going to look at the rate of something that is a fraction. You do know what a fraction is right?

The data on zkillboard tells you what is in the numerator, but tells you nothing about the denominator.

You have only half of the information you need.

Edit: And RFF has in the past kept track of why contracts were failed. Last time they shared that data was in 2012. About 46% to suicide ganks.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#324 - 2017-02-26 23:04:58 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


Oh Great Ignorant One....

Zkill gives half the picture. The half where there were actual suicide ganks. It tells us nothing about how many freighters move around HS unmolested.

You are talking out of ignorance. You want to make a change, out of ignorance.



Again, its not about the targets... its about how gankers are able to operate in highsec due to certain mechanics in the game. Refer to the OP.


No, it would be about the rate of ganking dingaling.

If your unconditional probability of getting ganked is say 10% you might have something. But we don't know. We can look at RFF's numbers and draw some inferences....

1. Are RFF pilots generally prudent--i.e. do they use scouts, webs, tank when possible, and not carry too much?
2. We know RFF fails very few contracts...which is why people use them.

Based on 1 being true and given 2 we can conclude with some degree of confidence that the conditional probability of being ganked is very, very low. That is if you are prudent your probability of being ganked is less than 1%.

So all your bleating about Goons ganking all the things is simply not true.

Since you are basing your argument on these bleatings your argument does not have a base...no foundation.

Now you are starting to recognize it and shift over to "all criminals" because you realize your initial position was flawed. You are insistent on your beliefs and will move the goal posts to ensure you do not have to change your beliefs.


So if I go to zkill, since you are unwilling, and provide you with all the links for every gank by the gank team out of jita V - moon 17 in the last month and you see just how much they are abusing the system... then you are going to agree with me right. If I remember right, Redfrog freighters are not part of a particular corp, they do this particularly because of war deccing. So there is no way to guage accurately how many freighters they lose. Given that, we would RedFrog report that they lose freighters on the daily.


Stop being an ass. I have gone to zkill and looked at freighter kills. In fact, in threads like this I'm one of the one's who does that kind of think and posts numbers.

My point is if you are going to look at the rate of something that is a fraction. You do know what a fraction is right?

The data on zkillboard tells you what is in the numerator, but tells you nothing about the denominator.

You have only half of the information you need.


The security status and faction police mechanic is broken. I dont need to weight targets and their habits, etc to see that. What you are saying has no bearing on my point.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#325 - 2017-02-26 23:07:12 UTC
Erich Einstein wrote:


The security status and faction police mechanic is broken. I dont need to weight targets and their habits, etc to see that. What you are saying has no bearing on my point.


You keep saying this, but you have nothing upon which to base this. You tried with suicide ganking of freighters, but clearly you have failed in that.

If there is no problem, then it stands to reason it is not broken.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#326 - 2017-02-26 23:08:08 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:


The security status and faction police mechanic is broken. I dont need to weight targets and their habits, etc to see that. What you are saying has no bearing on my point.


You keep saying this, but you have nothing upon which to base this. You tried with suicide ganking of freighters, but clearly you have failed in that.

If there is no problem, then it stands to reason it is not broken.


Just read the OP.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#327 - 2017-02-26 23:11:16 UTC
Erich Einstein wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:


The security status and faction police mechanic is broken. I dont need to weight targets and their habits, etc to see that. What you are saying has no bearing on my point.


You keep saying this, but you have nothing upon which to base this. You tried with suicide ganking of freighters, but clearly you have failed in that.

If there is no problem, then it stands to reason it is not broken.


Just read the OP.


It is no longer valid, I'm afraid.

We don't know how ubiquitous freighter ganking is.
We do know that for prudent players it is very unlikely.
Even looking at RFF we know that thousands of courier contracts are delivered with little or no problem....provided one is prudent.

This is not a problem with suicide ganking. There is not a problem with letting -10 players into HS. There is little to no evidence they are the scourge you are making them out to be.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#328 - 2017-02-26 23:12:05 UTC
Erich Einstein wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:


The security status and faction police mechanic is broken. I dont need to weight targets and their habits, etc to see that. What you are saying has no bearing on my point.


You keep saying this, but you have nothing upon which to base this. You tried with suicide ganking of freighters, but clearly you have failed in that.

If there is no problem, then it stands to reason it is not broken.


Just read the OP.


There's no proof or anything that backs up what you are saying. Only to you don't like it. That's not a valid reason to change gameplay mechanics. It just means that you should change the way you play.

In other words:

HTFU

Wormholer for life.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#329 - 2017-02-26 23:13:59 UTC
*popcorn*

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#330 - 2017-02-26 23:15:25 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:


The security status and faction police mechanic is broken. I dont need to weight targets and their habits, etc to see that. What you are saying has no bearing on my point.


You keep saying this, but you have nothing upon which to base this. You tried with suicide ganking of freighters, but clearly you have failed in that.

If there is no problem, then it stands to reason it is not broken.


Just read the OP.


It is no longer valid, I'm afraid.

We don't know how ubiquitous freighter ganking is.
We do know that for prudent players it is very unlikely.
Even looking at RFF we know that thousands of courier contracts are delivered with little or no problem....provided one is prudent.

This is not a problem with suicide ganking. There is not a problem with letting -10 players into HS. There is little to no evidence they are the scourge you are making them out to be.


Twitch vids and zkill are proof at how much isk they are able to steal from others without consequence or any real effort in HighSec. It diminishes all other aspects of isk making in the game. Im sure you also argued against gambling with isk as well but it eventually got fixed because it was not good for the game.
Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#331 - 2017-02-26 23:16:15 UTC
Wander Prian wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:


The security status and faction police mechanic is broken. I dont need to weight targets and their habits, etc to see that. What you are saying has no bearing on my point.


You keep saying this, but you have nothing upon which to base this. You tried with suicide ganking of freighters, but clearly you have failed in that.

If there is no problem, then it stands to reason it is not broken.


Just read the OP.


There's no proof or anything that backs up what you are saying. Only to you don't like it. That's not a valid reason to change gameplay mechanics. It just means that you should change the way you play.

In other words:

HTFU


Such a wanna-be noob. Just go play eve and get wrecked.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#332 - 2017-02-26 23:19:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Erich Einstein wrote:


Twitch vids and zkill are proof at how much isk they are able to steal from others without consequence or any real effort in HighSec. It diminishes all other aspects of isk making in the game. Im sure you also argued against gambling with isk as well but it eventually got fixed because it was not good for the game.


So now you are advocating for people who are mismanaging their risk? Do I read you correctly? You think it is wrong that when a player mismanages their risk it is bad for other players to take advantage of it?

So I take it you also do not like:

Scammers,
Corp thieves,
Log on traps,
And killing people who blind jump their capitals to a cyno beacon.

Yes? After all all those things also entail people mismanaging their risk. We need to save people from themselves...since they are not capable of taking care of themselves, we'll do it for them. Yes?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Lei YingLu
Designated Drivers
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#333 - 2017-02-26 23:20:12 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:


Absolutely. I would argue that is part of being a prudent player. Be aware of these things. I am taking my JF NOWHERE near Jita this weekend. You guys would be on me like stink on **** (even though we were once blue...I'm not now so I'd be fair game...which I have no issue with).

Hell at past Burn events there'd be people along the routes saying "Turn back...they are killing all freighters" and the freighters would head right into the meat grinder, some even on autopilot.


Exactly. You can't fix stupid.

As far as for the OP I would invite you to try ganking yourself. Learn the mechanics and you will learn that not all is as you seem. There as alot more to just sit there and shoot and some pubbie at random. If you really feel that my end of things is as broken and lop sided as you depict, this experience will enlighten you to what it is like and that there is alot you have to deal with to be able to get that juicy kill. It will also enlighten you to the stupidity of people. Would you haul 7 billion in an anti tanked T1 hauler? Maybe not but people do it. And that is why they get themselves blown up.
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#334 - 2017-02-26 23:20:52 UTC
Erich Einstein wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:


The security status and faction police mechanic is broken. I dont need to weight targets and their habits, etc to see that. What you are saying has no bearing on my point.


You keep saying this, but you have nothing upon which to base this. You tried with suicide ganking of freighters, but clearly you have failed in that.

If there is no problem, then it stands to reason it is not broken.


Just read the OP.


There's no proof or anything that backs up what you are saying. Only to you don't like it. That's not a valid reason to change gameplay mechanics. It just means that you should change the way you play.

In other words:

HTFU


Such a wanna-be noob. Just go play eve and get wrecked.


I have no issues in killing and losing ships in glorious PVP. You on the other hand seen the have issues with non-concencual pvp, sandbox-mechanics and the whole "you aren't safe in highsec" -ideas that are the main pillars that Eve are built on.

WoW is that way -> You'll like it more.

Wormholer for life.
Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#335 - 2017-02-26 23:24:03 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:


Twitch vids and zkill are proof at how much isk they are able to steal from others without consequence or any real effort in HighSec. It diminishes all other aspects of isk making in the game. Im sure you also argued against gambling with isk as well but it eventually got fixed because it was not good for the game.


So now you are advocating for people who are mismanaging their risk? Do I read you correctly? You think it is wrong that when a player mismanages their risk it is bad for other players to take advantage of it?

So I take it you also do not like:

Scammers,
Corp thieves,
Log on traps,
And killing people who blind jump their capitals to a cyno beacon.

Yes? After all all those things also entail people mismanaging their risk. We need to save people from themselves...since they are not capable of taking care of themselves, we'll do it for them. Yes?

Just stop talking please... i dont know if you are trying to build your forum likes or something but go do it elsewhere. Your a troll and that all there is to it.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#336 - 2017-02-26 23:26:05 UTC
Erich Einstein wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:


Twitch vids and zkill are proof at how much isk they are able to steal from others without consequence or any real effort in HighSec. It diminishes all other aspects of isk making in the game. Im sure you also argued against gambling with isk as well but it eventually got fixed because it was not good for the game.


So now you are advocating for people who are mismanaging their risk? Do I read you correctly? You think it is wrong that when a player mismanages their risk it is bad for other players to take advantage of it?

So I take it you also do not like:

Scammers,
Corp thieves,
Log on traps,
And killing people who blind jump their capitals to a cyno beacon.

Yes? After all all those things also entail people mismanaging their risk. We need to save people from themselves...since they are not capable of taking care of themselves, we'll do it for them. Yes?

Just stop talking please... i dont know if you are trying to build your forum likes or something but go do it elsewhere. Your a troll and that all there is to it.


Fortunately you are not ISD, and you put your idea out there for others to comment on...which includes me.

Perhaps you should consider the following:

Editing your post with something like: Needs to go back on the drawing board.

Then ask ISD to close the thread and there...I can no longer comment. But since I'd like to see the game survive, I'll comment on ideas I think are both good and bad.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#337 - 2017-02-26 23:27:35 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
All i see here is butthurt gankers that doesn't want to get their easy life of ganking over and over in the infinite loop to be harder and being butthurt that someone have an idea on a system that actually punishes the criminals harder the more they do crimes every day, like the law enforcement always have handled criminals in the first place. And being butthurt over someone explaining you gankers that you don't understand the concept of how criminals are supposed to be treated.

I mean, you are a freaking CRIMINAL to begin with. You are not supposed to be able to continue the criminal activity that easy the more you do it. It should be harder to do the crimes the more you do it.

And this is EXACTLY what you can't even explain why it shouldn't be in the game. It doesn't affect ganking at all. It just affect the challenge of continuing doing it the more you do crimes every day. All you have as an lame excuse is that 'it's a game' and 'this is not how things works'.

News @ 11. Even though things isn't working like that now, what prevents it from being like that by changing the game for the better for everyone in the future?

Remember, a criminal is supposed to be treated as a criminal and not like it is now with the only insanely low 15 minute Concord timer.

I feel that i need to quote myself here, because no one seems to be willing to counter argument what i'm saying here.

I wonder why?

Yes, please explain to me why criminals shouldn't be treated as criminals in EVE?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#338 - 2017-02-26 23:28:50 UTC
Wander Prian wrote:


I have no issues in killing and losing ships in glorious PVP. You on the other hand seen the have issues with non-concencual pvp, sandbox-mechanics and the whole "you aren't safe in highsec" -ideas that are the main pillars that Eve are built on.

WoW is that way -> You'll like it more.


Stop saying sandbox. It is not a sandbox. It is a brand that gets very frequent updates and changes all the time based on the best interest of the game. There is a reason that gambling got wrecked, roraquals got redesigned, and everything else in this game gets changed. That is not a sandbox, that is a game like another out there in the world. Whenever the good-old-boys club uses the term sandbox, its nothing more than an attempt to discourage changes that they benefit from.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#339 - 2017-02-26 23:29:33 UTC
A ganker can only make that much money from ganking because the victim provides that much loot. If freighters did not carry as much, or bothered to protect themselves, gankers would make much less isk.

Do you understand that? The gankers pay is ENTIRELY dependant on the greed and stupidity of their victims. And you are ommitting that gankers have to share payouts.

And AGAIN with the lies. Without any real effort? perhaps for individual gankers. But the collective effort required for ganking freighters is massive. The logistics, the fitting of ships, the scanning, the camping etc etc So much effort in fact that very few groups can pull it off and make good isk.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#340 - 2017-02-26 23:29:36 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
All i see here is butthurt gankers that doesn't want to get their easy life of ganking over and over in the infinite loop to be harder and being butthurt that someone have an idea on a system that actually punishes the criminals harder the more they do crimes every day, like the law enforcement always have handled criminals in the first place. And being butthurt over someone explaining you gankers that you don't understand the concept of how criminals are supposed to be treated.

I mean, you are a freaking CRIMINAL to begin with. You are not supposed to be able to continue the criminal activity that easy the more you do it. It should be harder to do the crimes the more you do it.

And this is EXACTLY what you can't even explain why it shouldn't be in the game. It doesn't affect ganking at all. It just affect the challenge of continuing doing it the more you do crimes every day. All you have as an lame excuse is that 'it's a game' and 'this is not how things works'.

News @ 11. Even though things isn't working like that now, what prevents it from being like that by changing the game for the better for everyone in the future?

Remember, a criminal is supposed to be treated as a criminal and not like it is now with the only insanely low 15 minute Concord timer.

I feel that i need to quote myself here, because no one seems to be willing to counter argument what i'm saying here.

I wonder why?

Yes, please explain to me why criminals shouldn't be treated as criminals in EVE?


They absolutely should!