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[March] Rorqual and Mining changes

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Author
Panther X
Dreadnoughtz Conclave
Requiem Eternal
#461 - 2017-02-25 20:52:48 UTC
Karmastat wrote:
My two cents: I see the PANIC module as a hard counter to Hot Drops from Covert Op Hot drops. But if u make the requirement to have an active target lock on anything -- wont that just mean the attackers will use an attack that breaks all target locks first?

This would just make the fleets as vulnerable as before?

since killmails can list the closest celestial to a kill, why not just check if an asteroid belt is closest celestial?


The counter argument to this is that "in siege, the rorqual is immune to ewar" Yes?

My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#462 - 2017-02-25 21:05:05 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
So I've done my fair share of blops against hardened and well defended sov space. The most important thing is speed - can my damage outpace the response fleet? Although one of the intentions of AegisSov was largely to punish bloat, it has had the opposite effect - empires can attain massive scale without gaining any of the friction that should accompany it because you can stuff so many players into so little space comfortably. Horde has nearly 13,000 pilots, and only needs one pocket of Fade (5 systems) to feed that many players. This density problem, combined with cynos, combined with PANIC, combined with the local tank means any reasonable sov empire, barring gross and hilarious incompetence, will be able to respond in time - the window is simply massive.


Aegis sovereignty actually did nothing to change how densely you can pack space. The ore anomaly spawn mechanics that are in place today have been in place for longer than I've been playing this game, and today's ore anomaly asteroid composition has been in place for nearly two years.

What changed was the removal of AFK carrier ratting in the Citadel expansion. Suddenly, the most scalable method of making money in nullsec was gone. Mining was the next thing in line after AFK carrier ratting was removed, due to its largely hands-off gameplay mechanics. We were already mining a lot in barges and exhumers, and then Rorquals were released, significantly over-tuned at release. It's only natural we and others would go whole hog on them.

The existence of skill injectors exacerbated this problem, as well. Without them, you'd have seen a much more gradual ramp up to today's Superfund-style mining operations, as multiboxers et. al. slowly trained pilots up the long way or competed for a tiny slice of available Character Bazaar offerings.

Mistakes were made, but let's be sure to attribute them to the right sources. Aegis sovereignty, for all its faults, wasn't responsible here.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Karmastat
Bluetronics
#463 - 2017-02-25 21:12:10 UTC
Panther X wrote:
Karmastat wrote:
My two cents: I see the PANIC module as a hard counter to Hot Drops from Covert Op Hot drops. But if u make the requirement to have an active target lock on anything -- wont that just mean the attackers will use an attack that breaks all target locks first?

This would just make the fleets as vulnerable as before?

since killmails can list the closest celestial to a kill, why not just check if an asteroid belt is closest celestial?


The counter argument to this is that "in siege, the rorqual is immune to ewar" Yes?




May be true, if its in seige and has the core on and running, etc.

However my real point - that only one person has commented on - is to remind CCP of the fact - that their servers know if u are near a celestial or not - so when the Panic Button is pressed that a simple data call to a routine that determines the type of celestial you are near (same one used for Killmails) and allowing PANIC mode only if in a belt seemed a much easier solution.


As to the Economy? the charts show Production of ore and Minerals has skyrocketed which is tilting the market. I would say the market was tilted before all this came up .. we need our long lost economist back, please
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#464 - 2017-02-25 21:13:05 UTC
Karmastat wrote:

However my real point - that only one person has commented on - is to remind CCP of the fact - that their servers know if u are near a celestial or not - so when the Panic Button is pressed that a simple data call to a routine that determines the type of celestial you are near (same one used for Killmails) and allowing PANIC mode only if in a belt seemed a much easier solution.


Fozzie said, earlier, that proximity checks are considerably more expensive than locked target checks. Don't expect them to relent on that.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Vic Jefferson
ElitistOps
Snuffed Out
#465 - 2017-02-25 21:13:56 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
When you're pulling in people who previously turned their noses up at mining that's a pretty good indication the risk/reward is out of whack.


Thanks for responding so completely. This was one part that still made me....contemplative.

So, I think it's healthier for the game overall for 'non-miners' to adopt mining in sov space that they live in than adopting some of the other activities that are out of whack as far as risk/reward. High Sec incursions are literally anathema to everything EvE stands for as far as risk/reward, and players from all walks of space have incursion alts, same with faction warfare alts. Basically it's better and healthier for people to have activities that are actually tied to the space they live in, and the groups they are part of, rather than just having a series of alts to earn income with because none of the local activities are appealing enough.

The rest of your counter-points are well taken, but by that counter-point, that would seem to implicate that since Incursions have made us (or our alts Bear) into hi-secers, incursions should be removed from Hi-Sec entirely because they distort the entire rest of the game. Honestly, it's a little telling that CCP will use the nerf hammer on nullsec to fix the economy, but the Hi-Sec incursion beast is tacitly ignored.



Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Karmastat
Bluetronics
#466 - 2017-02-25 21:21:49 UTC
Querns wrote:
Karmastat wrote:

However my real point - that only one person has commented on - is to remind CCP of the fact - that their servers know if u are near a celestial or not - so when the Panic Button is pressed that a simple data call to a routine that determines the type of celestial you are near (same one used for Killmails) and allowing PANIC mode only if in a belt seemed a much easier solution.


Fozzie said, earlier, that proximity checks are considerably more expensive than locked target checks. Don't expect them to relent on that.


I'll check that thanks.. I'm not sure i believe it though. the number of Rorquals hitting the Panic button has got to be a very very minor fraction of the killmails being generated every second however, and they do a prox check for those. (unless the check is done by zKill somehow, which might change things).

Plus how many overviews have the asteroid belt on them with distance indicated? Mmmmm .. Naw ... I dont buy the expensive Argument, they may be more expensive per call than a target lock, but the total bandwidth/CPU cycles is very low do to not happening very often. Just my opinion.
Penance Toralen
Compass Fox
#467 - 2017-02-25 21:23:25 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:

Okay. Let's give a little bit of history before we talk about this. Many moons ago, Hi-Sec was the place to mine. There were literally caravans of freighters being titan jumped to null to build super caps and titans. Minerals just came from hisec, there was little reason to do mining in null. What did it take to reverse this? It took mineral buffs, Aegis-Sov, industrial structures, and Rorquals to really give null an edge - an edge they should have. If players put the time in to literally build, maintain, and defend an empire, there should be rewards. Likewise, the convenience and safety of Hi-Sec should come at a premium. Basically, crashing the mineral market was the best thing that ever happened - it made EvE, EvE again, where there was actually a risk/reward paradigm.

That being said, the yield did not have to be changed. The tank and combat prowess and tank absolutely did. It's supposed to be a risk/reward thing, and with the Rorqual so defensible, there really isn't enough risk using them to justify the rewards. Heck, I'd support increasing the yield if they lost a significant margin of the tank.


Sherman, set the WABAC Machine to pre-CSM6. Gun mining was a thing. The loot table contained meta zero mods when with combined with bounties made this a lucrative play style in all corners of New Eden. Mining in Hi-sec was a third world income level. And self-destruction insurance on the undock was a possible because the mineral value was lower than Premium.

(prepare to fast forward) Fast Forwarding to CSM6. Its proposed to remove drone drops which are refined into large portion of the minerals of market. With the stroke of a pen, the Chairman can bankrupt a rival alliance. We are talking the same worthy who, learning day one of the summit that all Wormholes classes contain ABC ores, had a near meltdown demanding the removal of these ores because they should be exclusive to null-sec. (insert: something something virgins, something sex advice for comedic effect). The follow on effect is high-sec is left to fill the void.

Safety where does that come into the equation? Until July 2012, mining barges had a single mid-slot. How could they cope against rats out of high-sec with almost zero tank. That's long before we touch on how reviled the activity is, and over-farmed for "content generation".

The mineral buffs came at the advice of a single player. No townhall, no tabled to the CSM - one player. Can I forgiven for not being inspired by whole process?
Teebling
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#468 - 2017-02-25 21:29:20 UTC
I scanned down a wormhole, avoided being seen by whole corp, found two Hulks and a Rorqual. Went to suicide my Hecate to kill one of the hulks before their fleet formed to kill me.

Hulk down into structure and suddenly stops taking any damage whatsoever! What a rubbish feature - please remove PANIC.
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
#469 - 2017-02-25 21:34:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Algarion Getz
Oddsodz wrote:

2# Leave the PvE Isk making numbers alone. Nobody is bitching about the amount of ISK Per Hour apart from CCP. The ship is supposed to be a big rock muncher that also serves to protect his mining buddies. LET IT BE A BIG ******* ISK Printing ship. This is it's REWARD for fielding such a thing. The ore market will adjust just as it always has. If the market crashes. Well it will lead to interesting things to study and new interesting ideas for the cost of wars that are waged.

The Rorqual is an industrial command ship. It is supposed to support and protect a mining fleet, not be the mining fleet. The current Rorqual is so good at mining, it makes all other forms of mining obsolete and the mechanics strongly favor the big coalitions who always have a capital fleet ready to squash anyone who dares to tackle one of their Rorquals. Just look who complains in this thread ... mainly Goons, PL and NC. They act like they represent the entirety of EVE.
Cade Windstalker
#470 - 2017-02-25 21:38:44 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
When you're pulling in people who previously turned their noses up at mining that's a pretty good indication the risk/reward is out of whack.


Thanks for responding so completely. This was one part that still made me....contemplative.

So, I think it's healthier for the game overall for 'non-miners' to adopt mining in sov space that they live in than adopting some of the other activities that are out of whack as far as risk/reward. High Sec incursions are literally anathema to everything EvE stands for as far as risk/reward, and players from all walks of space have incursion alts, same with faction warfare alts. Basically it's better and healthier for people to have activities that are actually tied to the space they live in, and the groups they are part of, rather than just having a series of alts to earn income with because none of the local activities are appealing enough.

The rest of your counter-points are well taken, but by that counter-point, that would seem to implicate that since Incursions have made us (or our alts Bear) into hi-secers, incursions should be removed from Hi-Sec entirely because they distort the entire rest of the game. Honestly, it's a little telling that CCP will use the nerf hammer on nullsec to fix the economy, but the Hi-Sec incursion beast is tacitly ignored.


Thank you for the civil and intelligent discussion, it's been a refreshing change Big smile

I sort of agree with this and at the same time I don't.

I'm going to avoid getting into the whole "Incursions are OP" thing, because I disagree and that's an argument for another thread. Sufficed to say that there's a ton of logistics, planning, and organization that keeps incursion groups running, and that I can say from experience that no where near everyone out in Null has an Incursion alt. Same with Faction Warfare and various other activities.

The actual major issue here, that I think separates the Rorqual from Incursions and Carrier ratting and Level 5 missions and even Factional Warfare is that when something breaks the mineral market is has massive and far reaching implications. When someone decides to Incursion instead of Carrier rat they're actually choosing a bit of safety over generating more ISK, so they're not even causing inflation.

When someone decides to Rorqual Mine instead of Carrier rat though they're increasing the supply of minerals in the game, and when a ton of people choose to do that it can cause a major swing in the mineral market, which is what we're currently seeing. That mineral swing is going to have a pretty significant impact on anyone doing production in the game because it pushes down their ability to make ISK, and it's not really pushing down the value of other goods along with it the way changes in the money supply in-game tend to.

What this means is that this massive shift towards Rorqual mining is going to price out a lot of smaller producers who were previously able to easily PLEX their accounts. It's possible that the shift will push some people out of Rorqual mining as well, but since without a yield change the number of mining hours required to build a capital ship remains the same the relative attractiveness of swapping away from mining to other activities is a bit skewed. This is especially true when you consider that the people mining in Rorquals are also often old enough to just stand up a production alt if they don't have one already, so they can turn those minerals into ships, especially Supers, and bump their profit margins significantly. I think the profit margin on a Hel right now is something like 5b profit on 12b in minerals.

That's why I don't think the current state of the Rorqual is healthy, even if it's pulled in people who might otherwise being doing other activities, or other activities elsewhere. Personally though I think most of the people it's pulled in would be Carrier or Super Ratting, not running in other space. Super ratting is a similar cost investment to a Rorqual and drones and pays in about the same bracket, where as the general average for Incursions is a bracket or two down, generally between 90 and 150m before LP.

That said, I would fully support more group-oriented and higher reward PvE in Null. Something like Rogue Drone Infestations or something where you'd need to gather up a combined Cap and Sub-Cap fleet and run things as a group for big payouts of some kind, because I absolutely agree that people should be encouraged to use the space they occupy, and I also think that there should be incentive to spread out a bit more than currently.

I also don't like that end-game Null PvE is solo, and CCP have expressed a similar sentiment, so there's that too.

The main thing though is I don't think the amazing Rorqual mineral faucet is a healthy way to draw people to an activity.
November Audene
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#471 - 2017-02-25 21:55:53 UTC
I have only been playing this game for a year and JUST got into capital ships. I am very against the proposed changes to drones, both excavator and carrier. These changes make it much less profitable to be a capital pilot for the purpose of making isk, and as someone who can only fly one ship, this impacts me a lot. I am particularity concerned about the proposed increase to fighter sig radius. I just started carrier ratting this week, and already I am about to see my ratting life and learning curve get much more difficult. These changes don't really affect those who have played this game for years and have many accounts, but for new and new-ish players like me this is a really bad thing. On a different note, I am concerned that this change will cause people to be more cautious with their ships as with less ore being mined, ship prices will increase. With more caution comes less content, and content drives the heart of this game.
Mr Bignose
The East Perimeter Trading Company
#472 - 2017-02-25 22:01:24 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Now, I can definitely appreciate and get behind that it's a little ridiculous how many people you can pack into a small area these days. There was another post on Reddit discussing how fast mining enoms respawn, and I have to agree that's a bit silly, but changing it wouldn't actually fix the Rorqual right now, because the risk vs reward is such that mining in a Rorqual has become more attractive to a lot of people than Carrier or even Super Ratting..


it's also the lack of micromanagement compared to carrier ratting, coupled with the massive capacity of the ore anoms which can comfortably fit up to a dozen rorquals. fade is stuffed to the gills with VNIs so it's maddening to carrier rat there. rorq mining is really chill in comparison because it's easy to get your own good sized nice nug to nom on.
Cade Windstalker
#473 - 2017-02-25 22:11:29 UTC
Mr Bignose wrote:
it's also the lack of micromanagement compared to carrier ratting, coupled with the massive capacity of the ore anoms which can comfortably fit up to a dozen rorquals. fade is stuffed to the gills with VNIs so it's maddening to carrier rat there. rorq mining is really chill in comparison because it's easy to get your own good sized nice nug to nom on.


A couple of people on Reddit were reporting that there are guys in their Alliance with 40+ Rorquals that just go through and eat Ore anoms in an hour each.
Vic Jefferson
ElitistOps
Snuffed Out
#474 - 2017-02-25 22:27:21 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
The actual major issue here, that I think separates the Rorqual from Incursions and Carrier ratting and Level 5 missions and even Factional Warfare is that when something breaks the mineral market is has massive and far reaching implications. When someone decides to Incursion instead of Carrier rat they're actually choosing a bit of safety over generating more ISK, so they're not even causing inflation.


I would tend to disagree wholeheartedly. They are causing inflation by earning 80% of the ISK at 0.001% of the risk. They are dumping wealth into the game that has no opportunity cost.

It's a hilariously unjust double-standard. The moment nullsec has a grip on an economy they should dominate, things are adjusted, but it's been OK for incursions to literally stomp out so many other economies. I cry foul.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Mr Bignose
The East Perimeter Trading Company
#475 - 2017-02-25 22:36:21 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
A couple of people on Reddit were reporting that there are guys in their Alliance with 40+ Rorquals that just go through and eat Ore anoms in an hour each.


it kind of gets too busy above a dozen but i guess it depends on how co-ordinated you are. also you have to clear the mercoxit and if you're rolling it every hour then you need quite a few deep core subcap miners. but yeah, it's kind of nuts and I don't think these kind of balance passes are really addressing that.
Cade Windstalker
#476 - 2017-02-25 23:03:53 UTC
Querns wrote:
Karmastat wrote:

However my real point - that only one person has commented on - is to remind CCP of the fact - that their servers know if u are near a celestial or not - so when the Panic Button is pressed that a simple data call to a routine that determines the type of celestial you are near (same one used for Killmails) and allowing PANIC mode only if in a belt seemed a much easier solution.


Fozzie said, earlier, that proximity checks are considerably more expensive than locked target checks. Don't expect them to relent on that.


At least not without a really good reason at least.

Also knowing what celestial you're near is pretty easy, you just need to iterate through the list of celestials and you can do that quickly with an oct-tree since Celestials don't move or change. Asteroids do though, so what would have to happen is that every time someone hits a PANIC module it basically searched through everything in a radius around it until it finds an asteroid or hits a range limit, which probably requires building an oct tree and checking each object in it as you get further from the ship to see if it's an asteroid.

It's *mostly* unlikely that this performance hit would matter too much, but on the flip side every little bit helps, and if hitting PANIC causes a bit of a lag spike then you might get someone hitting like fifty of em to try and induce TiDi or something.
Cade Windstalker
#477 - 2017-02-25 23:10:44 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
The actual major issue here, that I think separates the Rorqual from Incursions and Carrier ratting and Level 5 missions and even Factional Warfare is that when something breaks the mineral market is has massive and far reaching implications. When someone decides to Incursion instead of Carrier rat they're actually choosing a bit of safety over generating more ISK, so they're not even causing inflation.


I would tend to disagree wholeheartedly. They are causing inflation by earning 80% of the ISK at 0.001% of the risk. They are dumping wealth into the game that has no opportunity cost.

It's a hilariously unjust double-standard. The moment nullsec has a grip on an economy they should dominate, things are adjusted, but it's been OK for incursions to literally stomp out so many other economies. I cry foul.


Like I said, I'd rather not get into this here. If you want to argue opportunity cost for Incursions PM me and we can hash it out there. Sufficed to say that for the moment CCP are happy with the risk/reward for Incursions.

My point is that it doesn't have the same kind of far reaching game impact that the mineral market crashing does. If I'm off doing Incursions then I'm not generating so much ISK that I'm wrecking other parts of the economy, and the LP Incursions generate actually takes ISK out of the game when it's used. The only thing Incursions take away from is participation in other things by the people running them. Anyone who doesn't want to Incursion is free to not, it's not going to see their ability to PLEX their account ruined because they've decided to keep doing Level 4s, or Carrier rat.

Rorquals, on the other hand, are flooding the market with minerals and that's seriously threatening to wreck mining as a profession for everyone who doesn't either have a Rorqual or a maxed out Orca booster and 20 Hulks.

To me this isn't a double standard, it's two completely different situations, and it's not about Null dominating, it's about Null basically squishing everything else.
Ltcartial
State War Academy
Caldari State
#478 - 2017-02-25 23:25:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Ltcartial
some Ideas that probly work better then just nerfing the rorqs.

1. What about making the rorq's have a min distance they have to keep from other rorqs in a belt when core mode is active? This would spread out rorq mining and make it still have a good Isk to reward while at the same time giving those players that have 10 rorq miners work harder for that ore. Spreading out 10 rorq accross multi belts/systems would differently slow down the amount one person can mine and balance off the market.

I would say rorq core min distance from another rorq in core would be a great idea if it had not been nerfed so much in the past giving a very bad balance risking 12B ship for crap yield.

2. Or better yet nerf the heck out of rorq mining yield and just boost the heck out of the mining links so others in the belt mining more to balance the risk of having that 12B assets out on the field for others to injoy. Say bye bye to the 40man rorq fleets, get those barges back out on the field .

The great thing about the rorq was it would boost others mining making not just one person want to play and injoy mining but make large grps come together to mine. So when you have costly assets on the field let it do its job and boost others and protect others all while the rest of the fleet is mining more and having a good time as a grp.
Circumstantial Evidence
#479 - 2017-02-25 23:39:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Circumstantial Evidence
Archeos wrote:
[link] RETHINK what you are proposing. Nerfing the rorqual and carrier ratting at the same time ? Why do you want to enrage everyone living in nullsec ? STOP THE NERFS.
Somehow the "null-sec cartels" and their "CSM lackeys" were unable to stop another nerf to the Rorqual's output - I wonder if Dinsdale is surprised by this.

Thank you CCP Fozzie for taking the time to write such a detailed reply on your reasoning; agree or not it has spawned a great discussion about the issues.
handige harrie
Vereenigde Handels Compagnie
#480 - 2017-02-25 23:40:01 UTC  |  Edited by: handige harrie
CCP Fozzie wrote:

We are very interested in hearing suggestions of alternate concepts for solving these problems, but I'd caution against assuming that this question is a particularly simple one.


add a hull bonus (or to the panic module):

Due to its specialized features the Rorqual :

- can't fit entosis module.
- can't fit ewar modules.

just like intreceptors with the entosis restriction.

Now both point #1 and #3 are taken care off, while point#2 is still wide available (i don't see how #2 is a bad thing)

Baddest poster ever