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any clue to a cargohold rebalance?
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Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2017-02-22 08:00:36 UTC
not sure why the harbinger still has 375m3 of cargo space (25m3 less than exploration frigates and many cruisers)
its the only bc to have such a small hold.
mtu makes it 275, depot makes it 225.

225 isnt alot of room to hold loot from wrecks pve wise.

why arent ships more balanced in terms of cargo hold?

frigates stay where they are but the larger ships go up they get larger holds.
frigates 100-400, cruisers 400-700, bcs 700-100, bs 1000-1300. tweak as needed.
at that point you get into carriers and such and they dont really change that much. theyre usually in the low thousands -2thousands from what ive seen.

doesnt make sense that a harbinger has a smaller cargohold than a frigate that it outsizes greatly.
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#2 - 2017-02-22 09:04:54 UTC
A lot of things in Eve make no sense outside the context of game balance and forcing us to make choices. If cargo capacity is your priority on a battlecruiser fly a Gnosis - basically the same price but a different set of trade-offs.
Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2017-02-22 10:44:14 UTC
Do Little wrote:
A lot of things in Eve make no sense outside the context of game balance and forcing us to make choices. If cargo capacity is your priority on a battlecruiser fly a Gnosis - basically the same price but a different set of trade-offs.

i generally do for that reason.
Amojin
Doomheim
#4 - 2017-02-22 10:47:34 UTC
Well, it sorta does. You use lasers, in a harbinger, so your designers would not have really set aside a lot of space for ammo stores, would they?

And you're not a cargo or exploration ship - they don't expect you to be picking up a bunch of crap?
Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2017-02-22 11:02:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Matthias Ancaladron
Amojin wrote:
Well, it sorta does. You use lasers, in a harbinger, so your designers would not have really set aside a lot of space for ammo stores, would they?

And you're not a cargo or exploration ship - they don't expect you to be picking up a bunch of crap?

then that would be true for all amarr ships thematically and they would all have much smaller cargo bays.

maller for example.
maller doesnt need ammo space, maller is not a cargo or exploration ship yet it has 480m3

iirc from the list ive made on my phone the harbinger is the only bc with less than 400m3
prophecy and myrmidon come in at exactly 400, and then hurricane with 425.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#6 - 2017-02-22 11:05:30 UTC
CCP said somewhere in the CSM Summit minutes they were wanting to do a cargo bay pass on larger ships, so.... In the next year..... soon™
Lugh Crow-Slave
#7 - 2017-02-22 12:00:13 UTC
generally it is to limit space for things like cap boosters i'm not sure you realize how strong cargo space is in pvp

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Wolfgang Jannesen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2017-02-22 13:37:11 UTC
Harbinger is a warship, I'd expect it to only have a hold in the mid 300m3. Remember that even though your ship is a PvE boat, your average war vessel is not going to put heavy emphasis on charge capacity, especially not when e ship uses crystals.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#9 - 2017-02-22 13:54:16 UTC
Wolfgang Jannesen wrote:
Harbinger is a warship, I'd expect it to only have a hold in the mid 300m3. Remember that even though your ship is a PvE boat, your average war vessel is not going to put heavy emphasis on charge capacity, especially not when e ship uses crystals.

Other than the fact that Amarr ships running just guns typically need a cap booster, never mind if they start to dare run a prop mod or rep at the same time. But that's a by the by, the Devs indicated they would look at it at some point on the larger sub cap vessels, exactly when is anyones guess.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#10 - 2017-02-22 14:17:07 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Wolfgang Jannesen wrote:
Harbinger is a warship, I'd expect it to only have a hold in the mid 300m3. Remember that even though your ship is a PvE boat, your average war vessel is not going to put heavy emphasis on charge capacity, especially not when e ship uses crystals.

Other than the fact that Amarr ships running just guns typically need a cap booster, never mind if they start to dare run a prop mod or rep at the same time. But that's a by the by, the Devs indicated they would look at it at some point on the larger sub cap vessels, exactly when is anyones guess.


are you saying it currently lacks sufficient cargo hold to maintain viability in pvp? remember this ship is incredibly tanky and its pretty close to the drake in that it can take near indefinitely so long as it has cap

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#11 - 2017-02-22 14:18:07 UTC
The t1 exploration ships have large holds. Compared to a combat frigs and t2 exploration frigs the harbies hold is not small.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Cade Windstalker
#12 - 2017-02-22 14:38:25 UTC
Amarr ships tend to have smaller cargo holds than their contemporaries since you don't need much space for ammo due to the nature of Laser Crystals.

The Prophecy only has 25m3 more cargo space, and is tied with the Myrmidon a similarly ammo agnostic BC class hull.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#13 - 2017-02-22 18:10:52 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Amarr ships tend to have smaller cargo holds than their contemporaries since you don't need much space for ammo due to the nature of Laser Crystals.

The Prophecy only has 25m3 more cargo space, and is tied with the Myrmidon a similarly ammo agnostic BC class hull.



And before you point out that the merm still needs chargers remember its primary dps is drones and is a powerful active rep ship

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Cade Windstalker
#14 - 2017-02-22 18:11:52 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Amarr ships tend to have smaller cargo holds than their contemporaries since you don't need much space for ammo due to the nature of Laser Crystals.

The Prophecy only has 25m3 more cargo space, and is tied with the Myrmidon a similarly ammo agnostic BC class hull.



And before you point out that the merm still needs chargers remember its primary dps is drones and is a powerful active rep ship


Also it can fit lasers without any loss of bonuses, or even small guns which have even smaller charges.
Cristl
#15 - 2017-02-22 19:51:35 UTC
After they changed the haulers to include specialised holds, including the Hoarder and its ammo hold, they could probably now do a balance pass whereby they add an ammo hold to all ships, and modify general cargo space.

That should allow them to more easily balance hold for loot purposes vs. hold for combat expendables.
Cade Windstalker
#16 - 2017-02-22 20:08:05 UTC
Cristl wrote:
After they changed the haulers to include specialised holds, including the Hoarder and its ammo hold, they could probably now do a balance pass whereby they add an ammo hold to all ships, and modify general cargo space.

That should allow them to more easily balance hold for loot purposes vs. hold for combat expendables.


The whole point of a generic cargo hold is that you need to determine how much you're going to allocate to loot vs ammo. Also, if you're running missions or something similar, as you expend ammo you free up space for other things. This goes away if ammo holds get added to ships.

The trade off with the Hoarder is using that ship with its specialty vs using something else. This doesn't apply to the idea of adding ammo holds to all ships.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#17 - 2017-02-22 22:52:50 UTC
Cristl wrote:
After they changed the haulers to include specialised holds, including the Hoarder and its ammo hold, they could probably now do a balance pass whereby they add an ammo hold to all ships, and modify general cargo space.

That should allow them to more easily balance hold for loot purposes vs. hold for combat expendables.



how exactly?


if you do this and there is an overall gain to cargo you do not solve the ballance issue with combat. if there is not a net gain you just take away cargo freedom.

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#18 - 2017-02-22 23:30:25 UTC
Cristl wrote:
After they changed the haulers to include specialised holds, including the Hoarder and its ammo hold, they could probably now do a balance pass whereby they add an ammo hold to all ships, and modify general cargo space.

That should allow them to more easily balance hold for loot purposes vs. hold for combat expendables.


Erm what??

If i want to use every available space for cap boosters you make my space less efficient by dividing it up. If i want to carry containers in a fast frig my capacity is split?

Special holds are an abomination. They broke haulers and remove choice.

Just no. Never ever ever ever should this be done.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Cristl
#19 - 2017-02-23 07:25:11 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Cristl wrote:
After they changed the haulers to include specialised holds, including the Hoarder and its ammo hold, they could probably now do a balance pass whereby they add an ammo hold to all ships, and modify general cargo space.

That should allow them to more easily balance hold for loot purposes vs. hold for combat expendables.


Erm what??

If i want to use every available space for cap boosters you make my space less efficient by dividing it up. If i want to carry containers in a fast frig my capacity is split?

Special holds are an abomination. They broke haulers and remove choice.

Just no. Never ever ever ever should this be done.

Mate, I don't envision this on many ships, certainly not fast frigs. But if you wanted a ship to be able to carry more booster charges, but didn't want it to be able to carry too much loot, then add an ammo hold. Conversely, if you felt a ship had too big a hold, but didn't want to gimp its combat potential, then you could partition some off for ammo and charges only.

Basically, it adds an optional balancing tool for the devs.

I'm not suggesting many ships should get one. It would be tedious to transfer stuff between holds for a start.
Althalus Stenory
Flying Blacksmiths
#20 - 2017-02-23 07:43:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Althalus Stenory
Regarding some ship, going through a cargohold rebalance would be nice, but with care: some ship shouldn't be able to hold too much thing (because mostly pvp, as said above).

On the same subject, what i'd really like, regarding "specialized cargo" would be to remove them, but instead of "doing nothing", add a bonus on this ship cargo to store these specialized items better than the others.

For example:
The Kryos currently have a mineral hold capacity of 43000 m3
The idea behind would be to remove that special cargo bay.
Instead, we add 14k m3 (around 1/3 of the specialized cargo) into the normal cargo and then add a role bonus for the kryos saying like "66% reduction of the mineral volume stored in the cargo" allowing him to almost store the same as its current mineral hold.

The advantage here is that, for "common" hauling, we could use any industrials, but we'd still have some specialized one. But in this case we shouldn't be able to add too much cargohold expander so ships like "mammoth" "iteron Mk5" etc, still have the best unspecialized cargohold.

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