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Future events suggestion (based on Guardians Gala event)
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Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
#21 - 2017-02-20 22:25:26 UTC
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:
Despawn beacon while someones actively at the site.

Problem solved.

Removing all possibility of contesting sites isn't a good idea. These sites are quite good for PvP. Competition is the fabric of this game.
Jasmin Yeva
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2017-02-22 19:30:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Jasmin Yeva
Thanks all for great answers!

Just to clear things out:

  • I'm not opposed to competition, and I think that competition in events should stay.
  • Competition can teke several forms. The one form is "the winner takes it all", the other form is "the higher skilled gets more rewards".
  • But competition in the form "the winner takes it all" makes sense only if parties involved actually can compete. If one party is several time stronger than other -- it become not a competition, but just griefing.
  • That's why in competitive events (like tournaments) there are mechanics to ensure that parties actually can compete (i.e. both parties have decent chances of winning) -- there are things like qualifiers, and checking previous competitive records (nobody puts street football team against national team).
  • This open to all players event lack any qualifiers. So it ends up with high-skilled players vs low-skilled players. And while low-skilled players can complete site, the problem is that it takes low-skilled player long time to complete the site (for me its 10-15 minutes). In this long time there is high chance that someone will warp in and just shoot battleship in couple of seconds, after you spent a long time to clear frigates and cruisers. And new player can't do anything about it.
  • This long completion times has to do with the fact, that I am Amarr, so I can deal only the worst type of damage for this sites.
  • So it ends up with players, who can't compete with higher-skilled player (for any reason) had to spend substantional amount of time without getting any reward.
  • I'm proposing to change type of competition for events from "the winner takes it all" to "the higher skilled gets more rewards". The point or task systems are only means to this goal.


Also, spending a 2 more days hunting for event sites I can add this:

  • Current event system distracts from usual EVE experience. The event is still grindy (because amount of reward is proportional to time spent). While for other activities it isn't bad, for the limited event it turns into either missing rewards, or doing the exact same thing (event sites are identical to each other).
  • Don't bring the "don't do the event if you don't want to" argument, bacuse the main goal of every ebent is to make people participate in it. So events should be created in a way, that people like to participate in them.
  • So now I'm more in favor of task-based system: each day you get 2 tasks -- destroy X frigates and destroy Y cruisers, which give you several SKINs each upon completeion. And for additional SKINS you can grind battlecruisers in event sites (as you do now).
  • First, this will allow players to get rewards without feeling that they lost time (even if someone warps in and shoots battlecruiser -- the frigates and cruisers you've killed count to progress towards the daily task).
  • Second, it will ease push for continious grind -- by receiving larger rewards earlier, players will value further grinding less, and easier switch to other activities, that they find more interesting (they won't feel so "punished" by event system for not doing event sites).
  • Third, this still allow for players to dedicate themselves to farming event sites and have larger rewards for larger efforts (it just won't be linear).
  • Fourth, players who can outcompete others get their reward, so competition won't be less valuable than of now.


Your thoughts?
Jasmin Yeva
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2017-02-22 19:34:12 UTC
The daily task system for events is quite tried in other games. So this implementation will be less risky to make, and allow to learn from others'.
Scialt
Corporate Navy Police Force
Sleep Reapers
#24 - 2017-02-22 19:53:57 UTC
I think you may need to take a different approach because of the time it takes you to complete a site.

Simply put, I think you need to go to places that are less populated. There are all sorts of off the beaten path systems in EVE and the Gala sites pop up in those places too. I went to one system with 5 sites and one other ship in local (who was apparently not running the sites). There are dead spots in Eve... even in high sec.

Some low sec systems are pretty empty too. Yeah... you might need to run if someone comes in local, but if you're off the main travel routes and outside of FW space there's a lot of emptiness out there. All you need to run sites is a bit of time.
Cade Windstalker
#25 - 2017-02-22 20:23:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Few points here...

Jasmin Yeva wrote:
  • But competition in the form "the winner takes it all" makes sense only if parties involved actually can compete. If one party is several time stronger than other -- it become not a competition, but just griefing.
  • That's why in competitive events (like tournaments) there are mechanics to ensure that parties actually can compete (i.e. both parties have decent chances of winning) -- there are things like qualifiers, and checking previous competitive records (nobody puts street football team against national team).

There's nothing anywhere that says a competition has to be fair. All those teams in whatever qualifier, regular season, or whatever else you want to bring up for comparison aren't all equally skilled. Just look at college sports for some amazing examples.

All of those teams are still in competition, but only the very good ones are going to get the rewards, the accolades, and all the other perks that come with winning.

Jasmin Yeva wrote:
  • This long completion times has to do with the fact, that I am Amarr, so I can deal only the worst type of damage for this sites.



It has more to do with the fact that you're a fairly low skill character than with the type of damage you're dealing. Generally speaking the difference in resists on a rat isn't that great that dealing a non-optimal damage type is going to result in even a 2x increase in completion time.

Generally speaking if you're dealing mostly Thermal and some EM to an Angels rat you're losing about 30-40% potential damage due to the roughly raw 20% difference in resists between Thermal and Explosive. Roughly 30% resists vs 50% seems to be the average among Angel rats without accounting for differences in weapon damage between lasers and other weapon types.

Also the next time a Blood Raider or Sansha event rolls around you'll be at an advantage over all the Minmatar pilots.

Jasmin Yeva wrote:
  • I'm proposing to change type of competition for events from "the winner takes it all" to "the higher skilled gets more rewards". The point or task systems are only means to this goal.


We had something like this as the primary method of rewards off the Serpentis event and people complained, a lot.

Jasmin Yeva wrote:

Also, spending a 2 more days hunting for event sites I can add this:
[list]
  • Current event system distracts from usual EVE experience. The event is still grindy (because amount of reward is proportional to time spent). While for other activities it isn't bad, for the limited event it turns into either missing rewards, or doing the exact same thing (event sites are identical to each other).
  • Don't bring the "don't do the event if you don't want to" argument, bacuse the main goal of every ebent is to make people participate in it. So events should be created in a way, that people like to participate in them.
  • So now I'm more in favor of task-based system: each day you get 2 tasks -- destroy X frigates and destroy Y cruisers, which give you several SKINs each upon completeion. And for additional SKINS you can grind battlecruisers in event sites (as you do now).
  • First, this will allow players to get rewards without feeling that they lost time (even if someone warps in and shoots battlecruiser -- the frigates and cruisers you've killed count to progress towards the daily task).
  • Second, it will ease push for continious grind -- by receiving larger rewards earlier, players will value further grinding less, and easier switch to other activities, that they find more interesting (they won't feel so "punished" by event system for not doing event sites).
  • Third, this still allow for players to dedicate themselves to farming event sites and have larger rewards for larger efforts (it just won't be linear).
  • Fourth, players who can outcompete others get their reward, so competition won't be less valuable than of now.


    • Your thoughts?


    Giving the majority of the rewards from the points system was exactly what people complained about because it removed a large part of the incentive to compete. Also, as an economic consideration, it would tank the price of the SKINs by injecting a large amount fairly early, thus further reducing incentives to do the sites and devaluing competition by reducing the value of the rewards.

    I also generally think your expectation of what a points based rewards system would look like in terms of ease of payout is severely off. We already have an idea from the Serpentis event and it was more like several days of work at a variety of different tasks for a few skins and other goodies but only once per event and at three increasingly difficult tiers.

    Also there's absolutely nothing that says you need to do these sites or you'll miss out. All the rewards are for sale on the market. If you can make more ISK doing something else then go do that and buy the SKINs you want off other players.
    Jasmin Yeva
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #26 - 2017-02-22 23:16:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Jasmin Yeva
    Cade Windstalker wrote:

    Giving the majority of the rewards from the points system was exactly what people complained about because it removed a large part of the incentive to compete. Also, as an economic consideration, it would tank the price of the SKINs by injecting a large amount fairly early, thus further reducing incentives to do the sites and devaluing competition by reducing the value of the rewards.

    I also generally think your expectation of what a points based rewards system would look like in terms of ease of payout is severely off. We already have an idea from the Serpentis event and it was more like several days of work at a variety of different tasks for a few skins and other goodies but only once per event and at three increasingly difficult tiers.

    Also there's absolutely nothing that says you need to do these sites or you'll miss out. All the rewards are for sale on the market. If you can make more ISK doing something else then go do that and buy the SKINs you want off other players.


    In Shadow of the Serpent event problem wasn't in the system, but in how this system was balanced: it gave huge reward after acquiring huge amount of points. While the same system can be balanced to give smaller rewards after acquiring smaller amount of points. This rebalancing didn't deny giving more expensive/unique rewards for players who acquired larger amount of points.

    To illustrate:
    In most games with point system reward progression looks like this:

    *---->[S]------->[M]---->[2x S]---->[L]----->[2x M]----->[XL]------>[2x L]------[2x XL]------>[Final]

    [S] is a small-valued reward, [M] is medium-valued, e.t.c.

    Notice, that despite rewards on average get higher as you progress -- they get spaced with lower tier rewards with shorter times to complete. It is done so that players don't have long streaks without rewards, while allowing to distribute small set of rewards amongst large range of points. Also often intermediate rewards (the second small, second medium, e.t.c.) are given in multiples, so it don't feel strictly worse than previous (although it isn't requirement -- if spans between repeating rewards are shorter, that feels OK too).

    While in Shadow of the Serpent reward looked like this:

    *---------------------->[S]-------------------------------->[M]------------------------------------------------------------>[Final]

    So point-based system doesn't need to be hard to get reward -- rewards can be smaller and more spaced.

    As of devaluing SKINs due to giving large amount of them early -- it is again the matter of balance. If you give like 20 SKINS for easy to complete task, then yes -- it will devalue the grind. But you can give, say 2-4 SKINs for each of 2 task that require that you run several sites (kill 20 frigates, kill 10 cruisers). So it won't devalue runnig sites very much, especially given that they could be completed once per day.

    Task system for events is also tried and polished in many games, for example -- look at Heroes of the Storm events.
    Cade Windstalker
    #27 - 2017-02-23 00:29:10 UTC
    Jasmin Yeva wrote:
    Task system for events is also tried and polished in many games, for example -- look at Heroes of the Storm events.


    First off, this is a lousy example. The HotS economy, such as it is, is nothing like the Eve economy so this comparison is worthless.

    Beyond that anything like "2-4 skins" per day would be A. easily abused with Alpha accounts, and B. still a major infusion of SKINs into the game, especially given the fairly sizable number of people like myself who only play a little every day in the first place.

    Basically if you think the rewards from this hypothetical system of your sound right they're probably too much, because you're a player and players like the idea of ample rewards for little work. Generally speaking though, and especially in Eve, the value of something is directly tied to how hard to get and scarce it is. In order for these SKINs to have any value at all they need to be at least reasonably scarce.

    Jasmin Yeva wrote:
    In Shadow of the Serpent event problem wasn't in the system, but in how this system was balanced: it gave huge reward after acquiring huge amount of points. While the same system can be balanced to give smaller rewards after acquiring smaller amount of points. This rebalancing didn't deny giving more expensive/unique rewards for players who acquired larger amount of points.


    This was, in fact, the problem with the sites/system. The major rewards from it weren't from the sites they were from cans that could be safely awarded and opened in a station with no risk to the player. Also the site cans themselves could be looted without a suspect flag, but that's its own issue.

    Generally speaking the desire from the players is to have the major rewards be from the sites and fought over, not something that's handed out to everyone as a participation trophy.


    At the end of the day Eve isn't a particularly even handed place. Older and more experienced players are almost always going to have an advantage over newer ones with less knowledge and fewer resources. Not always, by any means, but it takes some decent effort to get that leg up, not just sort of showing up and participating.

    The same applies to sites like these.

    If you, as a newer player, aren't getting a good reward from these sites then you either need to think of a way to get better at them, or find something else to do that is more worth your time. I can assure you the skins off of them aren't going to all get used up or disappear out of circulation a few weeks or even several months after the event. If you want them then just buy them later, if the event isn't giving you a good return on time invested then don't do it.

    My .02 ISK is that while I'm not opposed to CCP handing out minor rewards for tasks completed like Shadows of the Serpent they should be almost completely independent of the main event site rewards, and they shouldn't be all that valuable. Stuff like clothing, or maybe a few T1 Frigate SKINs, but not a table that just spits out main event loot.
    Jasmin Yeva
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #28 - 2017-02-23 01:32:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Jasmin Yeva
    Cade Windstalker wrote:

    First off, this is a lousy example. The HotS economy, such as it is, is nothing like the Eve economy so this comparison is worthless.



    Well, it wasn't a comparison, because it was given as an example of a system. And system usually can be balanced to the needs and economy of particular game. The HotS events is a good exemple of how to make players participate while giving them limited rewards.

    Cade Windstalker wrote:
    Beyond that anything like "2-4 skins" per day would be A. easily abused with Alpha accounts


    You got the point here. Though I don't know if using alpha to get bonus SKINs will be more effective than just farm them with omega on T2/pirate ship. My latest proposal don't deny having loot from sites, as it is now.

    Let's imagine a concrete exaple of the system I propose and just do math. Lets suppose that this event used proposed system:
    * Battlecruiser gives SKIN in a wreck.
    * Daily task of killing 20 frigates gives 4 SKINs
    * Daily task of killing 10 cruisers gives 2 SKINs

    Then first 2 sites a day will give 3 SKINs each, second 2 sites a day will give 2 SKINs each, all extra sites will give 1 SKIN.

    So to be able to abuse the system, alphas should be able to clear sites in not less than 40% of omega's clearing time on T2/pirate ship. Given that 1 task gives bonus for 4 sites, alpa can't complete just 2 sites and have all bonus SKINs, that's why I divided clearing time by 2.5.

    And that don't take into account the fact that while he is trying to abuse the system as alpha, other omegas can come and outcompete him.

    So while it is possible to abuse this system with alphas -- it first, needed to be proven with math, and second, it can be tuned by amount of rewards.

    Cade Windstalker wrote:
    B. still a major infusion of SKINs into the game, especially given the fairly sizable number of people like myself who only play a little every day in the first place.

    Basically if you think the rewards from this hypothetical system of your sound right they're probably too much, because you're a player and players like the idea of ample rewards for little work. Generally speaking though, and especially in Eve, the value of something is directly tied to how hard to get and scarce it is. In order for these SKINs to have any value at all they need to be at least reasonably scarce.


    To decide how much SKINs this will infuse, you need to know how much SKINs player farming now. I can say that from what I saw -- player in pirate cruisers can clear site in 3-5 minutes. Given that you need to find sites in the first place, it is safely to assume that players can farm 10-15 SKINs per hour. In example extra 6 SKINs a day are given to players who run event site, or give them 20-30 minutes worth of SKIN farming.

    For playr like you, it can really boost amount of SKINs you get about 2 times, if you will chose to participate. The fact that there are bonus rewards can incline you to take a part in the event, which I think is good.

    So more statistics are needed to decide on whether this bonus rewards for tasks will inject substantioal amount of SKINS. But I agree, that it can be the case.

    Given current prices -- this SKINs aren't that much scarce, most of them are well below 10 mil. Again, to judge scarcity, we need statistics of how much SKINs was farmed during the event.

    Cade Windstalker wrote:

    This was, in fact, the problem with the sites/system. The major rewards from it weren't from the sites they were from cans that could be safely awarded and opened in a station with no risk to the player. Also the site cans themselves could be looted without a suspect flag, but that's its own issue.

    Generally speaking the desire from the players is to have the major rewards be from the sites and fought over, not something that's handed out to everyone as a participation trophy.


    At the end of the day Eve isn't a particularly even handed place. Older and more experienced players are almost always going to have an advantage over newer ones with less knowledge and fewer resources. Not always, by any means, but it takes some decent effort to get that leg up, not just sort of showing up and participating.


    In that sense my proposal is really lacking. I'm not opposed to the idea of people having to fight over major rewards -- I'm opposed to the fact, that the ones that can't fight don't get any reward at all, and so participating in event is a waste of time for them. I think that participation in event should be encouraged, even if player can't compete with older players.

    Cade Windstalker wrote:

    My .02 ISK is that while I'm not opposed to CCP handing out minor rewards for tasks completed like Shadows of the Serpent they should be almost completely independent of the main event site rewards, and they shouldn't be all that valuable. Stuff like clothing, or maybe a few T1 Frigate SKINs, but not a table that just spits out main event loot.


    Agreed. But for current event there is only 1 dish, that isn't that scarce at all
    Jasmin Yeva
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #29 - 2017-02-23 02:08:29 UTC
    The current event have 2 extreme optimal decisions for player who can compete:

    1. You either farm it, because it gives you most ISK / SKINs / rewards per hour.
    2. Or you forfeit to take part in it because you can do something more interesting / profitable.


    The bonus rewards will bring some players, for whom optimal decision is the second one to take part in event and thus increase competition.

    For players who cant compete, optimal decisions now looks similar to player who can, but the difference is that they are forced:

    1. You to avoid event, because any activity that gives you some reward is more profitable and interesting than activity that gives you 0.
    2. Or you can find empty system, and resort to farming, before older player will show up and new player will be forsed to go away to avoid competition he cannot win. Which again don't spark competition.


    Each of this decisions is unsatisfying, that's why I started this post -- I beleive that event should bring as much people as it can to participate in it. But now newer player is forced either to completely avoid event or not to interact with other players.

    And again, bonus rewads will make this player more willing to take part in event, because he will know that he can get something.
    Naye Nathaniel
    COBRA INC
    Seventh Sanctum.
    #30 - 2017-02-23 08:52:50 UTC
    Short story short ;
    If u can't compete with Omegas - that means CCP want you to upgrade to Omega so you could take what is yours;
    And if u think u can't take the loot u are wrong;
    Mechanic works that - if u want to take an others loot, u just fly at 2.5km away from a wreck, open it, loot it and GTFO cause u are marked for 15 minutes with a suspect timer - when others can engage u;

    I think its great for you as u can't pick a single skin, that would mean ull pick 1 every 15 minutes :)
    No need to thank me about this great tip! :)

    But this event is not made for Alpha...
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