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Restrict players to ships of their faction (an end to meta-gaming)

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Amojin
Doomheim
#141 - 2017-02-22 07:04:52 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Amojin wrote:


And for all that wonder... Is it everyday? I'm not saying you people can't pull some cases out/ I'm saying you'll go months between these.

Except, that's a lie, isn't it? People on the old Tiny/PennMush Servers would have new content every couple days. Because it was not bots. It was humans. And it was not just any humans. It was humans that could build the content, and we did have to @dig the rooms, @link the exits, etc, etc.

Naturally talented story tellers, and when we got submissiions from people, we ran with them, and made them into sometimes half a year long tiny-plots.

I see you. Do you see me?

Go and become a Dev then. You are trying to compare a few hundred players interacting in a directly controlled environment with a 300,000 player sandbox game.
They are simply not comparable, and are entirely different kinds of experience, last time anything like you talk about got tried in EVE, it ended in one of the largest scandals in EVE where it got revealed that massive favouritism was being played towards certain groups. And because of the scale of EVE, it's impossible to avoid that favouritism because you simply would not be able to review everything submitted by players.

However none of this has anything to do with your actual topic, and your actual topic is still just as bad an idea as it was on the first page.



Why do you people so steadfastly defend a company that SHUNS content? It tells you to go to hell on a daily basis, saving itself the majority of development costs, and you love it?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#142 - 2017-02-22 07:06:07 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


I don't want to be part of a game where "one faction lets stuff happen" and also takes and active role in ensuring outcomes they deemed preferred.

CCP shuns content because players provide. Do you know some of the times when I've had the most fun in game:.


CCP shuns content because it doesn't want to pay for it, not because the average joe can do it.


Then bully for them...they found a way not to pay for it and to get us players to do their work. A truly innovative and smart move on their part.

It is a thing of beauty to those how can see it.

I don't think you can see it Amojin...which is more the pitty.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Amojin
Doomheim
#143 - 2017-02-22 07:07:47 UTC
'EVE Online--a game where nobody is truly in charge...not even the Devs, and that makes it freaking awesome.' -- Tekos

Wow. Talk about some blinders. The devs rule your toon from cradle tp grave. They set up what you can do, what ships you can fly, and actually CHANGE them underneath you between logins. On the other hand, they provide nothing else but robotic coded control.

And you love it.

I never thought I'd see humanity so corralled. Oh well.
Amojin
Doomheim
#144 - 2017-02-22 07:10:13 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


I don't want to be part of a game where "one faction lets stuff happen" and also takes and active role in ensuring outcomes they deemed preferred.

CCP shuns content because players provide. Do you know some of the times when I've had the most fun in game:.


CCP shuns content because it doesn't want to pay for it, not because the average joe can do it.


Then bully for them...they found a way not to pay for it and to get us players to do their work. A truly innovative and smart move on their part.

It is a thing of beauty to those how can see it.

I don't think you can see it Amojin...which is more the pitty.


No, I may just go back to PennMUSH and compile me a server with hspace and begin hard-code customizing it. It's not SWIFT or C#, so maybe CCP or Blizzard won't even want to mess with it.

Maybe I'll just find my old disks with my tinyfugue macros and recreate the old days. I'm about sick of your ****. Maybe some of your kids have more sense.
Breg Valkar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#145 - 2017-02-22 07:11:53 UTC
Amojin wrote:


A dictator that dictated a loss two times in three?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9xN0Ol5vZQ

Yeah, some dictator. This episode fed a lot of tiny plots, but it's morality also played a huge part in my portrayal of the UFP.

You are making a case that does not exist. Nobody would stop you from doing what you want, as you do, here. The flipside was that IF you want Content, it's there, all the time.

How were we wrong?


Hello Amojin

You misunderstand two points. One, you are not wrong. Or right. You are confusing the premises and goals of two very vastly different games, and enforcing the rules from one onto another.

The way things are and the way the thread has developed, you have made very little effort to truly understand the nature of the sandbox, and the nature of EVE Online, and instead ported over what you assume to be the way a past experience has shaped you, and applied it directly.

You need to take a step back and look at the dynamics and the ecosystem behind EVE, and understand that players create all the content by themselves for others. Neither method is superior or inferior to each other. Given my playstyle I wouldn't like a higher authority enforcing actions throughout the game. If I want to bring about the fall of an Alliance or Coalition, I want it to be by my hand and my achievement.

I look forward to your reply.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#146 - 2017-02-22 07:14:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Amojin wrote:


And for all that wonder... Is it everyday? I'm not saying you people can't pull some cases out/ I'm saying you'll go months between these.

Except, that's a lie, isn't it? People on the old Tiny/PennMush Servers would have new content every couple days. Because it was not bots. It was humans. And it was not just any humans. It was humans that could build the content, and we did have to @dig the rooms, @link the exits, etc, etc.

Naturally talented story tellers, and when we got submissiions from people, we ran with them, and made them into sometimes half a year long tiny-plots.

I see you. Do you see me?

Go and become a Dev then. You are trying to compare a few hundred players interacting in a directly controlled environment with a 300,000 player sandbox game.
They are simply not comparable, and are entirely different kinds of experience, last time anything like you talk about got tried in EVE, it ended in one of the largest scandals in EVE where it got revealed that massive favouritism was being played towards certain groups. And because of the scale of EVE, it's impossible to avoid that favouritism because you simply would not be able to review everything submitted by players.

However none of this has anything to do with your actual topic, and your actual topic is still just as bad an idea as it was on the first page.


Exactly.

Top down can work....in small groups. Get a big group and it breaks down and falls apart.

I don't care about some guy playing the game on the other side of the map. I don't know him, never interacted with him. I know nothing about him. Do I want him to "stay in game" okay sure in an abstract sense, but if he does or does not it means little to me because....we have not interacted and likely won't.

Same thing with RL. We live in a world of anonymous exchange now. Who made your computer's CPU? You don't know. Was it 1 guy or 15? You don't know. Did they know each other? You don't know. Do you know who sold it do you? Probably not. How about the bread in your kitchen? Who grew the grain, you don't know. How about the underwear you are wearing? Who made that? Do you know them? Nope.

My point is we live in a world where lots of stuff happens in a totally unguided manner. There is no underwear czar who determines how much underwear should be made. Some how all these different people figure it out. How? I don't know, but they do. Same with food, televisions, cars, gasoline, and CPUs. There is nobody ultimately in charge of that.

In that sense EVE is the same. There is nobody saying, "Goons, go to war with So-and-So Alliance." Does it happen? Yeah, why? IDK. There might be a reason, but it is not one easily seen or even predicted. And who joins in on that war is not clear either. It is a big stew of things going on and out of it we get all kinds of things like giant battles over a stupid miss-click of "jump" vs. "bridge" or some local squabble snowballs into a multi-region wide hate-**** war. Why or how this stuff happens I neither know nor care, I just want to be there to get in on the fun when I can.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#147 - 2017-02-22 07:18:37 UTC
Amojin wrote:
'EVE Online--a game where nobody is truly in charge...not even the Devs, and that makes it freaking awesome.' -- Tekos

Wow. Talk about some blinders. The devs rule your toon from cradle tp grave. They set up what you can do, what ships you can fly, and actually CHANGE them underneath you between logins. On the other hand, they provide nothing else but robotic coded control.

And you love it.

I never thought I'd see humanity so corralled. Oh well.


No they don't. They have made changes they thought would lead to X and us players said, "Nope...**** you: G! Mother ******!" Look at Dominon Sov. It was supposed to break up the Big Sov NS blocks...but instead they got worse. CCP changed things like insurance and CONCORD all with the eye towards making suicide ganking more problematic...now people suicide gank and make obscene profits....in your face CCP.

The only way for CCP to truly control us...is to kill the game. Then and only then can they declare victory and go home. But it will be a pyrrhic victory for them.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Amojin
Doomheim
#148 - 2017-02-22 07:19:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Amojin
Breg Valkar wrote:
Amojin wrote:


A dictator that dictated a loss two times in three?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9xN0Ol5vZQ

Yeah, some dictator. This episode fed a lot of tiny plots, but it's morality also played a huge part in my portrayal of the UFP.

You are making a case that does not exist. Nobody would stop you from doing what you want, as you do, here. The flipside was that IF you want Content, it's there, all the time.

How were we wrong?


Hello Amojin

You misunderstand two points. One, you are not wrong. Or right. You are confusing the premises and goals of two very vastly different games, and enforcing the rules from one onto another.

The way things are and the way the thread has developed, you have made very little effort to truly understand the nature of the sandbox, and the nature of EVE Online, and instead ported over what you assume to be the way a past experience has shaped you, and applied it directly.

You need to take a step back and look at the dynamics and the ecosystem behind EVE, and understand that players create all the content by themselves for others. Neither method is superior or inferior to each other. Given my playstyle I wouldn't like a higher authority enforcing actions throughout the game. If I want to bring about the fall of an Alliance or Coalition, I want it to be by my hand and my achievement.

I look forward to your reply.


It is extremely difficult to generate content. I don't particularly care whether I win or lose. IC, my character was a Vulcan Ensign. Even while I was lowering our shields via code, so we or a starbase would be wiped out, my IC toon was relaying the information and people would get into escape-pods. IC-Death was a rare thing, though it did happen.

It's not that you had to be there. It's not that someone was lording it over you. If you were any of the other empires, the UFP wiz is not even dictating to you. You had, exactly what you just said.

We even warned people in the faction-join room - if you want to be part of the UFP, special considerations apply. You will be held to a higher standard, both ooc and ic, than anyone else.

Now, if you didn't like this, there were a lot of other rooms for a new character to choose from to be recruited, including independents.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#149 - 2017-02-22 07:26:27 UTC
Amojin wrote:


It is extremely difficult to generate content. I don't particularly care whether I win or lose. IC, my character was a Vulcan Ensign. Even while I was lowering our shields via code, so we or a starbase would be wiped out, my IC toon was relaying the information and people would get into escape-pods. IC-Death was a rare thing, though it did happen.

It's not that you had to be there. It's not that someone was lording it over you. If you were any of the other empires, the UFP wiz is not even dictating to you. You had, exactly what you just said.

We even warned people in the faction-join room - if you want to be part of the UFP, special considerations apply. You will be held to a higher standard, both ooc and ic, than anyone else.

Now, if you didn't like this, there were a lot of other rooms for a new character to choose from to be recruited, including independents.


For crying out loud. Yes you were dictating even if you "decided" to lose. You only "let" them win.

The person talking to you mentioned an "eco-system". Here is the thing...eco-systems are unguided processes. There is no ultimate power in charge who lets things happens or prevents things from happening. Nobody is in charge. Nobody.

Same with EVE. Something could happen in EVE tomorrow and the Devs would have pretty much nothing to do with it. Could they swoop in and stop it? Sure. But they don't because they know they'd have to then provide this "content" you speak of. If they let this "something" happen tomorrow and just not worry about it, content will happen. And if not tomorrow there is the next day, and the day after that. Somebody is going to do something that is going to provide entertainment for others. Most likely many, many times. Be it a small war dec, ganking a freighter, or some NS alliance imploding and everyone going for a land grab.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Amojin
Doomheim
#150 - 2017-02-22 07:31:04 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Amojin wrote:


It is extremely difficult to generate content. I don't particularly care whether I win or lose. IC, my character was a Vulcan Ensign. Even while I was lowering our shields via code, so we or a starbase would be wiped out, my IC toon was relaying the information and people would get into escape-pods. IC-Death was a rare thing, though it did happen.

It's not that you had to be there. It's not that someone was lording it over you. If you were any of the other empires, the UFP wiz is not even dictating to you. You had, exactly what you just said.

We even warned people in the faction-join room - if you want to be part of the UFP, special considerations apply. You will be held to a higher standard, both ooc and ic, than anyone else.

Now, if you didn't like this, there were a lot of other rooms for a new character to choose from to be recruited, including independents.


For crying out loud. Yes you were dictating even if you "decided" to lose. You only "let" them win.

The person talking to you mentioned an "eco-system". Here is the thing...eco-systems are unguided processes. There is no ultimate power in charge who lets things happens or prevents things from happening. Nobody is in charge. Nobody.

Same with EVE. Something could happen in EVE tomorrow and the Devs would have pretty much nothing to do with it. Could they swoop in and stop it? Sure. But they don't because they know they'd have to then provide this "content" you speak of. If they let this "something" happen tomorrow and just not worry about it, content will happen. And if not tomorrow there is the next day, and the day after that. Somebody is going to do something that is going to provide entertainment for others. Most likely many, many times. Be it a small war dec, ganking a freighter, or some NS alliance imploding and everyone going for a land grab.



Yes, Teckos. But the UFP was, what? Let's see. The Dominion, the Cardassians, the Klingons, the Romulans, the Ferengi, Bajorans, the Independents... So, really... The game is a star trek game. If the UFP is ever, in code, wiped out, the game is over.

So they had a 13% chance, even if we randomized joins, to be stuck with my losing ass... Right? But, no, we let people choose. Normally, I had to close admissions, since we were not allowed to have more than 25% of the playerbase. Yeah, they all hated CONTENT, a lot.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#151 - 2017-02-22 07:49:32 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Yes, Teckos. But the UFP was, what? Let's see. The Dominion, the Cardassians, the Klingons, the Romulans, the Ferengi, Bajorans, the Independents... So, really... The game is a star trek game. If the UFP is ever, in code, wiped out, the game is over.

So they had a 13% chance, even if we randomized joins, to be stuck with my losing ass... Right? But, no, we let people choose. Normally, I had to close admissions, since we were not allowed to have more than 25% of the playerbase. Yeah, they all hated CONTENT, a lot.


Not sure what the second paragraph means....

However, the first paragraph speaks volumes. If any NS alliance is wiped out does it mean the game ends? Nope. Yes you let people choose, but you are also ready to step in and curb the implications of their choices. There is no parallel in EVE, IMO.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#152 - 2017-02-22 07:53:10 UTC
op going full minmatar in this thread.
never go full minmatar.
Amojin
Doomheim
#153 - 2017-02-22 07:57:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Amojin
Teckos Pech wrote:
[quote=Amojin]Yes, Teckos. But the UFP was, what? Let's see. The Dominion, the Cardassians, the Klingons, the Romulans, the Ferengi, Bajorans, the Independents... So, really... The game is a star trek game. If the UFP is ever, in code, wiped out, the game is over.

So they had a 13% chance, even if we randomized joins, to be stuck with my losing ass... Right? But, no, we let people choose. Normally, I had to close admissions, since we were not allowed to have more than 25% of the playerbase. Yeah, they all hated CONTENT, a lot.

Not sure what the second paragraph means....

However, the first paragraph speaks volumes. If any NS alliance is wiped out does it mean the game ends? Nope. Yes you let people choose, but you are also ready to step in and curb the implications of their choices. There is no parallel in EVE, IMO.


You are correct. In EVE, there is no parallel. You are all independents, as we considered them. You fly any ships, you act only in your own interests.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yx5mAd8wiNU

That pretty much says what I think of this. I am not independent. I never was. Then, or now. Not in the game or out of it. Maybe that's why I was good at it in the game. But I also, was very, very good at generating content. You are the first to complain, in all honesty.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#154 - 2017-02-22 07:58:31 UTC
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:
op going full minmatar in this thread.
never go full minmatar.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6WHBO_Qc-Q

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#155 - 2017-02-22 08:03:28 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
[quote=Amojin]Yes, Teckos. But the UFP was, what? Let's see. The Dominion, the Cardassians, the Klingons, the Romulans, the Ferengi, Bajorans, the Independents... So, really... The game is a star trek game. If the UFP is ever, in code, wiped out, the game is over.

So they had a 13% chance, even if we randomized joins, to be stuck with my losing ass... Right? But, no, we let people choose. Normally, I had to close admissions, since we were not allowed to have more than 25% of the playerbase. Yeah, they all hated CONTENT, a lot.

Not sure what the second paragraph means....

However, the first paragraph speaks volumes. If any NS alliance is wiped out does it mean the game ends? Nope. Yes you let people choose, but you are also ready to step in and curb the implications of their choices. There is no parallel in EVE, IMO.


You are correct. In EVE, there is no parallel. You are all independents, as we considered them. You fly any ships, you act only in your own interests.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yx5mAd8wiNU

That pretty much says what I think of this. I am not independent. I never was. Then, or now. Not in the game or out of it. Maybe that's why I was good at it in the game. But I also, was very, very good at generating content. You are the first to complain, in all honesty.


I believe I said several posts back we have fundamentally different philosophies. Mine is consistent with EVE, and IMO, your's is not.

I believe in emergence in spontaneous order. You don't. You want this "UFP" that can step in and keep things on what you consider and even keel or balanced.

I am fine with temporary imbalance in terms of player organizations knowing full well that what ever is currently dominant...this too shall pass. I have been playing the game along time. Longer than you, unless I am mistaken. I also take comfort in the fact that most of the other regulars here share a largely similar view of the game. Let the chips fall where they may...but even that is transitory.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Amojin
Doomheim
#156 - 2017-02-22 08:09:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Amojin
Teckos Pech wrote:


I believe I said several posts back we have fundamentally different philosophies. Mine is consistent with EVE, and IMO, your's is not.

I believe in emergence in spontaneous order. You don't. You want this "UFP" that can step in and keep things on what you consider and even keel or balanced.

I am fine with temporary imbalance in terms of player organizations knowing full well that what ever is currently dominant...this too shall pass. I have been playing the game along time. Longer than you, unless I am mistaken. I also take comfort in the fact that most of the other regulars here share a largely similar view of the game. Let the chips fall where they may...but even that is transitory.


This is what playing with you people feels like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmuPIZ-ASbs

That man is a starfleet captain, and he took an oath to the prime directive, Janeway says. Basically, you're damned right I'm angry.

Yes, I agree, we have different phllosophies... I thought your sandbox could handle anything?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#157 - 2017-02-22 08:14:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Amojin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


I believe I said several posts back we have fundamentally different philosophies. Mine is consistent with EVE, and IMO, your's is not.

I believe in emergence in spontaneous order. You don't. You want this "UFP" that can step in and keep things on what you consider and even keel or balanced.

I am fine with temporary imbalance in terms of player organizations knowing full well that what ever is currently dominant...this too shall pass. I have been playing the game along time. Longer than you, unless I am mistaken. I also take comfort in the fact that most of the other regulars here share a largely similar view of the game. Let the chips fall where they may...but even that is transitory.


This is what playing with you people feels like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmuPIZ-ASbs

That man is a starfleet captain, and he took an oath to the prime directive, Janeway says. Basically, you're damned right I'm angry.

Yes, I agree, we have different phllosophies... I thought your sandbox could handle anything?


I don't even....

Look, dude, either you like the sandbox or you don't. Pick one and then act accordingly. It is okay if you don't like the sandbox. Just stop trying to change the sandbox into a theme park.

Edit: BTW your OP, is not with in the spirit of the sandbox. That is pretty much what everyone has told you. If you want to limit yourself to just "your faction" fine. Stop trying to force that bullshit on the rest of us.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Amojin
Doomheim
#158 - 2017-02-22 08:18:37 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
[quote=Amojin]

I don't even....

Look, dude, either you like the sandbox or you don't. Pick one and then act accordingly. It is okay if you don't like the sandbox. Just stop trying to change the sandbox into a theme park.

Edit: BTW you OP, is not with in the spirit of the sandbox. That is pretty much what everyone has told you. If you want to limit yourself to just "your faction" fine. Stop trying to force that bullshit on the rest of us.


It's not so much of a wonderful sandbox is it, when all you do is kill each other, for no reason, but profit.

You touted a SANDBOX. That could accommodate us all, all play-styles.

Welll, that's not true, is it? It can't. It can only accommodate your play style, right?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#159 - 2017-02-22 08:26:02 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
[quote=Amojin]

I don't even....

Look, dude, either you like the sandbox or you don't. Pick one and then act accordingly. It is okay if you don't like the sandbox. Just stop trying to change the sandbox into a theme park.

Edit: BTW you OP, is not with in the spirit of the sandbox. That is pretty much what everyone has told you. If you want to limit yourself to just "your faction" fine. Stop trying to force that bullshit on the rest of us.


It's not so much of a wonderful sandbox is it, when all you do is kill each other, for no reason, but profit.

You touted a SANDBOX. That could accommodate us all, all play-styles.

Welll, that's not true, is it? It can't. It can only accommodate your play style, right?


Profit?

I rarely kill anyone for profit. If I kill you it is for some other reason.

You couldn't be more wrong. Why do I like Goons? They get what the sandbox means. So do their long time arch rivals*. Chances are, if I am killing you as part of a major fleet operation profit h as nothing to do with it.

As for accomodating all play styles....

Dude I already said if you want to "play your faction" go for it. I don't care. What I do care about is you using a top down approach to force that nonsense on the rest of us. So you are quite wrong.

*Okay, I always have a special dislike for FinFleet....even though some long term in game friends are now in FinFleet.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Amojin
Doomheim
#160 - 2017-02-22 08:28:35 UTC
If you rarely kill me for profit, then what's the reason?

And, if that is your perspective, you are classified as insane as I am, just so you know...