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Restrict players to ships of their faction (an end to meta-gaming)

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Amojin
Doomheim
#41 - 2017-02-21 23:23:09 UTC
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Amojin wrote:

So why can't I buy one off my Minmatar friend? Because again capsuleers have no loyalty to the empires.


Because it would be balance-breaking. This is a game, it can only emulate real life, but it should do so when possible, and when not, code-wise, since that's how we're going in the real world, away from real people with wiz-bits, mandating canon, but code, the code is not as flexible. Such actions must need be banned, arbitrarily, for balance.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#42 - 2017-02-21 23:24:05 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
it has nothing to do with fair or unfair all this would do gameplay wise is force meta gaming as players simply rolled toons it what was the strongest faction for a role. thats it. so rather than having everyone be an individual we may as well just have preset characters, you know something that goes against an open ended sandbox


This. Right here. Restrict pilots to racial ships and you're actually created a need for more accounts. As is, one of the appeals is that you do get to be flexible and train into whatever you want without spending any more -- you just have to wait.

Racial restrictions won't reduce metagaming (how the hell was that supposed to work anyway?) or help with balance -- it will just force players to invest differently.
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#43 - 2017-02-21 23:25:22 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Amojin wrote:

So why can't I buy one off my Minmatar friend? Because again capsuleers have no loyalty to the empires.


Because it would be balance-breaking. This is a game, it can only emulate real life, but it should do so when possible, and when not, code-wise, since that's how we're going in the real world, away from real people with wiz-bits, mandating canon, but code, the code is not as flexible. Such actions must need be banned, arbitrarily, for balance.

Can you explain to me how segregating players by the ships they can fly improves balance?

Give me a very specific, direct, example.
Dark Lord Trump
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#44 - 2017-02-21 23:25:34 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Amojin wrote:

So why can't I buy one off my Minmatar friend? Because again capsuleers have no loyalty to the empires.


Because it would be balance-breaking. This is a game, it can only emulate real life, but it should do so when possible, and when not, code-wise, since that's how we're going in the real world, away from real people with wiz-bits, mandating canon, but code, the code is not as flexible. Such actions must need be banned, arbitrarily, for balance.

You have yet to provide sufficient evidence that this would be balance-breaking. Why is it fine for a Minmatar character to fly a Hurricane but not a Caldari character?

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!
Lugh Crow-Slave
#45 - 2017-02-21 23:26:40 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Amojin wrote:

So why can't I buy one off my Minmatar friend? Because again capsuleers have no loyalty to the empires.


Because it would be balance-breaking. This is a game, it can only emulate real life, but it should do so when possible, and when not, code-wise, since that's how we're going in the real world, away from real people with wiz-bits, mandating canon, but code, the code is not as flexible. Such actions must need be banned, arbitrarily, for balance.



EXCEPT ONCE AGAIN


IT IS CANON THAT PILOTS FLY NON-RACIAL SHIPS



you keep trying to use lore and canon as reasons except your idea goes against both

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Amojin
Doomheim
#46 - 2017-02-21 23:27:25 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
it has nothing to do with fair or unfair all this would do gameplay wise is force meta gaming as players simply rolled toons it what was the strongest faction for a role. thats it. so rather than having everyone be an individual we may as well just have preset characters, you know something that goes against an open ended sandbox


This. Right here. Restrict pilots to racial ships and you're actually created a need for more accounts. As is, one of the appeals is that you do get to be flexible and train into whatever you want without spending any more -- you just have to wait.

Racial restrictions won't reduce metagaming (how the hell was that supposed to work anyway?) or help with balance -- it will just force players to invest differently.


Are you serious? Because you have a Zealot, and not an Ishtar, you will pay for another account? It is really beyond you to play a damned game, and accept that some things are not so wonderful? Instead of getting a Legion, you'd re-roll. If you can't have a Tengu, you'll re-roll, or if you're stuck with a Proteus, you won't realize this lack in certain roles, and play a ship IN your faction, better advantaged?

Damn, I don't like to be insulting, but you're sad.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#47 - 2017-02-21 23:29:32 UTC
Hi friend. I'm Siebestor, but I have negative standing to the republic. Would this mean I'm more able to fly a hurricane than an intaki with +5 standing?

And why could I not just sort of buy one and sell it to my Intaki friend anyway? It's not like I have any reason whatsoever to give a damn about highsec politics.


Now, from a game balance perspective, just flat out no. This breaks pretty well everything.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#48 - 2017-02-21 23:30:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Amojin wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
it has nothing to do with fair or unfair all this would do gameplay wise is force meta gaming as players simply rolled toons it what was the strongest faction for a role. thats it. so rather than having everyone be an individual we may as well just have preset characters, you know something that goes against an open ended sandbox


This. Right here. Restrict pilots to racial ships and you're actually created a need for more accounts. As is, one of the appeals is that you do get to be flexible and train into whatever you want without spending any more -- you just have to wait.

Racial restrictions won't reduce metagaming (how the hell was that supposed to work anyway?) or help with balance -- it will just force players to invest differently.


Are you serious? Because you have a Zealot, and not an Ishtar, you will pay for another account? It is really beyond you to play a damned game, and accept that some things are not so wonderful? Instead of getting a Legion, you'd re-roll. If you can't have a Tengu, you'll re-roll, or if you're stuck with a Proteus, you won't realize this lack in certain roles, and play a ship IN your faction, better advantaged?

Damn, I don't like to be insulting, but you're sad.



yes... why the hell would you gimp yourself when you know full well others are not going to.


if i need to support my corps shield fleet but I am amarr i'm not about to take a guardian

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Ajem Hinken
WarFear Gaming
#49 - 2017-02-21 23:30:28 UTC
Ajem Hinken wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:

The smart thing would be to not screw with the game and let people fly whatever they like.


I'm not always going to do the smart thing. Especially when it's not the RIGHT thing. You people doing whatever you like is the reason this game is so hard to balance.

Go shoot a citadel and then give CONCORD a hug for the last time they saved one of my buddies' butts.

If the faction ships were to not exist, several roles and so on would not be filled. For gameplay reasons and even reason reasons (do you really think a government would be able to keep a secret forever? Rub enough cash in anyone's face and they'll talk.) this will never be implemented.

I said it, so you don't have to directly.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6875494#post6875494 - Ship mounted explosives. Because explosions and Jita chaos.
Amojin
Doomheim
#50 - 2017-02-21 23:31:38 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
This breaks pretty well everything.


No, it does not. It makes balancing a lot easier. The way this is set up, now, You poople cherry pick the best ship for the best scenario. No matter how realistic that would be.

Believe it or not, you don't have to have the best ship of any given role, to win. Do you?
Amojin
Doomheim
#51 - 2017-02-21 23:33:30 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
why the hell would you gimp yourself when you know full well others are not going to.


if i need to support my corps shield fleet but I am amarr i'm not about to take a guardian


Then this would make it simple. You'd all have to just deal with it. There wouldn't be a choice. Maybe it would open up options for someone else, who could fly the best ship? Can't have that.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#52 - 2017-02-21 23:34:14 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
This breaks pretty well everything.


No, it does not. It makes balancing a lot easier. The way this is set up, now, You poople cherry pick the best ship for the best scenario. No matter how realistic that would be.

Believe it or not, you don't have to have the best ship of any given role, to win. Do you?



... you do if you're going against the guy who does




in what way does this make it easier to balance? all it does is require you to have at least 4 acc

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugh Crow-Slave
#53 - 2017-02-21 23:35:05 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
why the hell would you gimp yourself when you know full well others are not going to.


if i need to support my corps shield fleet but I am amarr i'm not about to take a guardian


Then this would make it simple. You'd all have to just deal with it. There wouldn't be a choice. Maybe it would open up options for someone else, who could fly the best ship? Can't have that.



you mean it would force me to log onto my caldari toon to get into a bassy?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Amojin
Doomheim
#54 - 2017-02-21 23:38:18 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
in what way does this make it easier to balance? all it does is require you to have at least 4 acc


It makes it easy for the devs to balance. If you know that your repair ship are going to have a hard time, you'll want to shift your strategies. What happened to this being a TEAM game?

If you're putting me in a situation, where it's faction based ships, and most of my fleet is gallente, I'd expect to see a ton of Ishtars and Myrmidons, a few EoS. Etc, etc, etc. No, not every damned one of them is the best at their role, but there are enough players, in this case, that DID not have to cross train, that maybe you can come up with a scenario where you can use your strengths to your advantage, and yes, accept your weaknesses?
Amojin
Doomheim
#55 - 2017-02-21 23:39:52 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
you mean it would force me to log onto my caldari toon to get into a bassy?



*sigh* Yes. Yes, it would force YOU to do that, and apparently a lot more people, too. Meta-gaming is the norm, here, sadly, and you all love it so much that you'll fight to keep it. Where's that dude that was bitching about SC's being so overpowering and unbalanced?

This is the same thing, in the midst of F2P.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#56 - 2017-02-21 23:42:45 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
This breaks pretty well everything.


No, it does not. It makes balancing a lot easier. The way this is set up, now, You poople cherry pick the best ship for the best scenario. No matter how realistic that would be.

Believe it or not, you don't have to have the best ship of any given role, to win. Do you?


So please explain my role as a minmatar logistics pilot in an armour based fleet. Or an amarrian pilot in a shield fleet.

Now explain why you have to be gallente to effectively do PI, and honestly you might as well reroll if you ever want to haul anything and you happen to be caldari.



You have to have a ship that actually FUNCTIONS in a role to perform that role. A scimitar is worthless in an armour fleet. A typhoon is not going to do well in an armour drone battleship fleet. A vagabond or a muninn are just flat out worthless in any fleet.

Your alliance is flying shield BCs, but you're Amarr. What do you do?

You want to participate in any kind of a bomber fleet, but you're gallente while all your friends are caldari. What do you do?

You wish to participate in a shield T3C fleet, but you're Amarr. What do you do? You're a heavily drone specced Minmatar and this change happens. What do you do? The Ishkur is your favourite ship, but you're Caldari. What do you do?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#57 - 2017-02-21 23:42:47 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
in what way does this make it easier to balance? all it does is require you to have at least 4 acc


It makes it easy for the devs to balance. If you know that your repair ship are going to have a hard time, you'll want to shift your strategies. What happened to this being a TEAM game?

If you're putting me in a situation, where it's faction based ships, and most of my fleet is gallente, I'd expect to see a ton of Ishtars and Myrmidons, a few EoS. Etc, etc, etc. No, not every damned one of them is the best at their role, but there are enough players, in this case, that DID not have to cross train, that maybe you can come up with a scenario where you can use your strengths to your advantage, and yes, accept your weaknesses?



yes its a team game and you want me to cut a guy from the team because he can't use a shield based ship this has nothing to do with accepting weaknesses this has to do with YOU arbitrarily forcing restrictions on people for no reason other than your twisted mandated RP

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Ajem Hinken
WarFear Gaming
#58 - 2017-02-21 23:44:46 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
This breaks pretty well everything.


No, it does not. It makes balancing a lot easier. The way this is set up, now, You poople cherry pick the best ship for the best scenario. No matter how realistic that would be.

Believe it or not, you don't have to have the best ship of any given role, to win. Do you?

You do, because if you don't, then the other guy will have and you will lose.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6875494#post6875494 - Ship mounted explosives. Because explosions and Jita chaos.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#59 - 2017-02-21 23:44:48 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Also, it's kinda unfair that I chose a race with the knowledge that race didn't matter, and now race suddenly matters.


And, now, we have it. You are not your character. Your character did not choose it's race. In character, it lived a life, and it is what it is, it had no choice. The fun, and the challenge, is in you taking that up, and making a good story of it, in a MU*, or in this case, a good showing with what you have.

And, if you couldn't all just meta-game, CCP would have a hell of a lot easier a time balancing this, wouldn't they?


Let me get this right...you are a role player who has jettisoned pretty much all of the back story, yeah?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Lugh Crow-Slave
#60 - 2017-02-21 23:45:05 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
you mean it would force me to log onto my caldari toon to get into a bassy?



*sigh* Yes. Yes, it would force YOU to do that, and apparently a lot more people, too. Meta-gaming is the norm, here, sadly, and you all love it so much that you'll fight to keep it. Where's that dude that was bitching about SC's being so overpowering and unbalanced?

This is the same thing, in the midst of F2P.


what?


ofc people are going to be forced to make several acounts with this because if you don't you are just adding restrictions to yourself that others do not have.


if you really don't want to fly any race that isn't yours more power too you. if you can find a group of players that want to do this then form a corp around it, but don't make everyone else play how YOU want them to

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble