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Restrict players to ships of their faction (an end to meta-gaming)

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Amojin
Doomheim
#21 - 2017-02-21 22:46:13 UTC
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Either ships are successfully kept military secrets or they're not. If they are, then only the empires would have such ships as they're not going to hand them out to loose-cannon Empyreans, regardless of race. If they're not, then I see no reason why us capsuleers can't get our hands on them. I mean, if you want to only use your faction's ships, you can do that, but I see no reason why I can't fly a Hurricane just because I was born Caldari.



That would, at best, get you a few ships, not the entire lineup, right? What you are postulating is so difficult as to be ludicruous if it were not a thing here or there, isn't it?

And since the game doesn't allow that mechanic, but has to be all or nothing, the smart thing to do is restrict game play to the nothing aspect.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#22 - 2017-02-21 22:50:04 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Either ships are successfully kept military secrets or they're not. If they are, then only the empires would have such ships as they're not going to hand them out to loose-cannon Empyreans, regardless of race. If they're not, then I see no reason why us capsuleers can't get our hands on them. I mean, if you want to only use your faction's ships, you can do that, but I see no reason why I can't fly a Hurricane just because I was born Caldari.



That would, at best, get you a few ships, not the entire lineup, right? What you are postulating is so difficult as to be ludicruous if it were not a thing here or there, isn't it?

And since the game doesn't allow that mechanic, but has to be all or nothing, the smart thing to do is restrict game play to the nothing aspect.



just how many engagements do you think would be needed before you were able to capture or reverse engineer the tec even if your warped idea of the lore was true.

you still haven't explained how in your own logic a gallente character would be given this tech considering odds are he is no longer a citizen of his empire and is in no way part of his empires military.

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Amojin
Doomheim
#23 - 2017-02-21 22:54:47 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Either ships are successfully kept military secrets or they're not. If they are, then only the empires would have such ships as they're not going to hand them out to loose-cannon Empyreans, regardless of race. If they're not, then I see no reason why us capsuleers can't get our hands on them. I mean, if you want to only use your faction's ships, you can do that, but I see no reason why I can't fly a Hurricane just because I was born Caldari.



That would, at best, get you a few ships, not the entire lineup, right? What you are postulating is so difficult as to be ludicruous if it were not a thing here or there, isn't it?

And since the game doesn't allow that mechanic, but has to be all or nothing, the smart thing to do is restrict game play to the nothing aspect.



just how many engagements do you think would be needed before you were able to capture or reverse engineer the tec even if your warped idea of the lore was true.

you still haven't explained how in your own logic a gallente character would be given this tech considering odds are he is no longer a citizen of his empire and is in no way part of his empires military.


I'm ignoring the lame capsuleer 'isolationist' story. It's ridiculous. It would never happen. If you can wake someone up, in a new body, one of two things is going to happen. They remember who they are, completely. Or, they remember only skills and have a huge or falsified gap in their memories.

Are you postulating the second, then? Sci-fi is replete with these sorts of things, and yes, we have to use sci-fi as a theoretical 'authority,' because it's not sci-fact, yet.

In nearly every case, the person realizes a gap is there, or a memory is fake, after being subjected to enough stimuli or time, and the ruse, fails.

You are trying very hard to go against what I asked.

What of what I originally asked. HOW IS IT UNFAIR TO MAKE YOU PLAY WHAT YOU CHOSE TO PLAY?
Dark Lord Trump
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#24 - 2017-02-21 22:55:06 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Either ships are successfully kept military secrets or they're not. If they are, then only the empires would have such ships as they're not going to hand them out to loose-cannon Empyreans, regardless of race. If they're not, then I see no reason why us capsuleers can't get our hands on them. I mean, if you want to only use your faction's ships, you can do that, but I see no reason why I can't fly a Hurricane just because I was born Caldari.



That would, at best, get you a few ships, not the entire lineup, right? What you are postulating is so difficult as to be ludicruous if it were not a thing here or there, isn't it?

And since the game doesn't allow that mechanic, but has to be all or nothing, the smart thing to do is restrict game play to the nothing aspect.

We've had capsules for 120 years. I'm pretty sure that's sufficient time for capsuleers to buy or steal the entire lineup. Furthermore, how exactly do I get a Caldari ship for a Caldari character anyway? There's no reason for the Caldari State to allow me access to their designs any more than the Gallente Federation. Capsuleers have no loyalty to any empire.
The smart thing would be to not screw with the game and let people fly whatever they like.

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!
Amojin
Doomheim
#25 - 2017-02-21 22:56:40 UTC
Dark Lord Trump wrote:

The smart thing would be to not screw with the game and let people fly whatever they like.


I'm not always going to do the smart thing. Especially when it's not the RIGHT thing. You people doing whatever you like is the reason this game is so hard to balance.
Dark Lord Trump
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#26 - 2017-02-21 22:57:20 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Either ships are successfully kept military secrets or they're not. If they are, then only the empires would have such ships as they're not going to hand them out to loose-cannon Empyreans, regardless of race. If they're not, then I see no reason why us capsuleers can't get our hands on them. I mean, if you want to only use your faction's ships, you can do that, but I see no reason why I can't fly a Hurricane just because I was born Caldari.



That would, at best, get you a few ships, not the entire lineup, right? What you are postulating is so difficult as to be ludicruous if it were not a thing here or there, isn't it?

And since the game doesn't allow that mechanic, but has to be all or nothing, the smart thing to do is restrict game play to the nothing aspect.



just how many engagements do you think would be needed before you were able to capture or reverse engineer the tec even if your warped idea of the lore was true.

you still haven't explained how in your own logic a gallente character would be given this tech considering odds are he is no longer a citizen of his empire and is in no way part of his empires military.


I'm ignoring the lame capsuleer 'isolationist' story. It's ridiculous. It would never happen. If you can wake someone up, in a new body, one of two things is going to happen. They remember who they are, completely. Or, they remember only skills and have a huge or falsified gap in their memories.

Are you postulating the second, then? Sci-fi is replete with these sorts of things, and yes, we have to use sci-fi as a theoretical 'authority,' because it's not sci-fact, yet.

In nearly every case, the person realizes a gap is there, or a memory is fake, after being subjected to enough stimuli or time, and the ruse, fails.

You are trying very hard to go against what I asked.

What of what I originally asked. HOW IS IT UNFAIR TO MAKE YOU PLAY WHAT YOU CHOSE TO PLAY?

No one said anything about missing memories. Capsuleers don't forget what race they started out as. They just don't care.
Also, it's kinda unfair that I chose a race with the knowledge that race didn't matter, and now race suddenly matters.

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!
Dark Lord Trump
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#27 - 2017-02-21 22:58:44 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:

The smart thing would be to not screw with the game and let people fly whatever they like.


I'm not always going to do the smart thing. Especially when it's not the RIGHT thing. You people doing whatever you like is the reason this game is so hard to balance.

You have yet to provide convincing evidence that this is the right thing. At least you get that what you're doing isn't smart.

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#28 - 2017-02-21 22:59:02 UTC
Amojin wrote:
The descriptions of the Amarr and Gallente Societies tell a different story, lore-wise. Do you really think Minmatar ex-slaves would create a society without treason laws, any more than Gallente would?

What you just said, PERFECTLY describes ONE society, in character, Caldari. Now, those Caldari, would they share tech, when other corps, were not? Every corporation is run, so far, by people. And people have ethics, and little hangups, and **** like remembering, oh, they enslaved us. We're not, actually, fond of that. So, no, no we're not gonna share, even though it gets us money in the short term, because our society will vilify and boycott us, and well, we'll go bankrupt...

Yes, they would share tech. They care about megabucks. Just like every other megacorp. Nobody will boycott because they would have already.
Amojin
Doomheim
#29 - 2017-02-21 23:00:02 UTC
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Also, it's kinda unfair that I chose a race with the knowledge that race didn't matter, and now race suddenly matters.


And, now, we have it. You are not your character. Your character did not choose it's race. In character, it lived a life, and it is what it is, it had no choice. The fun, and the challenge, is in you taking that up, and making a good story of it, in a MU*, or in this case, a good showing with what you have.

And, if you couldn't all just meta-game, CCP would have a hell of a lot easier a time balancing this, wouldn't they?
Dark Lord Trump
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#30 - 2017-02-21 23:03:30 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Also, it's kinda unfair that I chose a race with the knowledge that race didn't matter, and now race suddenly matters.


And, now, we have it. You are not your character. Your character did not choose it's race. In character, it lived a life, and it is what it is, it had no choice. The fun, and the challenge, is in you taking that up, and making a good story of it, in a MU*, or in this case, a good showing with what you have.

And, if you couldn't all just meta-game, CCP would have a hell of a lot easier a time balancing this, wouldn't they?

I still don't see why me being Caldari prevents me from flying a Hurricane. I also don't see why this would make balancing any easier, since all the ships would have to be roughly equal to prevent a "best race" from being a thing, especially since there are so many people locked into their races now.

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!
Amojin
Doomheim
#31 - 2017-02-21 23:08:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Amojin
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Also, it's kinda unfair that I chose a race with the knowledge that race didn't matter, and now race suddenly matters.


And, now, we have it. You are not your character. Your character did not choose it's race. In character, it lived a life, and it is what it is, it had no choice. The fun, and the challenge, is in you taking that up, and making a good story of it, in a MU*, or in this case, a good showing with what you have.

And, if you couldn't all just meta-game, CCP would have a hell of a lot easier a time balancing this, wouldn't they?

I still don't see why me being Caldari prevents me from flying a Hurricane. I also don't see why this would make balancing any easier, since all the ships would have to be roughly equal to prevent a "best race" from being a thing, especially since there are so many people locked into their races now.


The pirate factions, I consider just that. Pirate. You have to train in two different philosophies to WARRANT being able to fly them. A Hurricane is not a pirate ship. It's a standard military ship, not that of a rogue faction breakaway.

The other guy was talking about tech being leaked, etc, etc, and it was, in character, in game, in pirate ships. And the skills to fly them are commensurate with the privilege. They are also limited, or should be. You should be able to fly, with your cross faction skills, only pirate ships that need the cross faction skill you trained, if it's that great a ship.

A Hurricane? Be a Caldari - fly a Raven. (Edit: Or a Drake, I guess)
Amojin
Doomheim
#32 - 2017-02-21 23:09:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Amojin
... Deleted. Trying to edit the previous and ended up with a new post.
Ajem Hinken
WarFear Gaming
#33 - 2017-02-21 23:11:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Ajem Hinken
Amojin wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:

The smart thing would be to not screw with the game and let people fly whatever they like.


I'm not always going to do the smart thing. Especially when it's not the RIGHT thing. You people doing whatever you like is the reason this game is so hard to balance.

Go shoot a citadel and then give CONCORD a hug for the last time they saved one of my buddies' butts.

If the faction ships were to not exist, several roles and so on would not be filled. For gameplay reasons and even reason reasons (do you really think a government would be able to keep a secret forever? Rub enough cash in anyone's face and they'll talk.) this will never be implemented.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6875494#post6875494 - Ship mounted explosives. Because explosions and Jita chaos.
Amojin
Doomheim
#34 - 2017-02-21 23:14:23 UTC
Ajem Hinken wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:

The smart thing would be to not screw with the game and let people fly whatever they like.


I'm not always going to do the smart thing. Especially when it's not the RIGHT thing. You people doing whatever you like is the reason this game is so hard to balance.

Go shoot a citadel and then give CONCORD a hug for the last time they saved one of my buddies' butts.

If the faction ships were to not exist, several roles and so on would not be filled. For gameplay reasons and even reason reasons (do you really think a government would be able to keep a secret forever? Rub enough cash in anyone's face and they'll talk.)


SR-71 Blackbird. 'Nuff said about secrets. Still nothing that fast, by anyone. Skunkworks also, never released the specs, though history tells us they were infiltrated, and people tried.

You have to look no farther than the SR-71 to see the flaw. Not all military tech is for sale. Some is. I expect some degree of infiltration and espionage. So does CCP, apparently, hence the pirate factions.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#35 - 2017-02-21 23:14:31 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Either ships are successfully kept military secrets or they're not. If they are, then only the empires would have such ships as they're not going to hand them out to loose-cannon Empyreans, regardless of race. If they're not, then I see no reason why us capsuleers can't get our hands on them. I mean, if you want to only use your faction's ships, you can do that, but I see no reason why I can't fly a Hurricane just because I was born Caldari.



That would, at best, get you a few ships, not the entire lineup, right? What you are postulating is so difficult as to be ludicruous if it were not a thing here or there, isn't it?

And since the game doesn't allow that mechanic, but has to be all or nothing, the smart thing to do is restrict game play to the nothing aspect.



just how many engagements do you think would be needed before you were able to capture or reverse engineer the tec even if your warped idea of the lore was true.

you still haven't explained how in your own logic a gallente character would be given this tech considering odds are he is no longer a citizen of his empire and is in no way part of his empires military.


I'm ignoring the lame capsuleer 'isolationist' story. It's ridiculous. It would never happen. If you can wake someone up, in a new body, one of two things is going to happen. They remember who they are, completely. Or, they remember only skills and have a huge or falsified gap in their memories.

Are you postulating the second, then? Sci-fi is replete with these sorts of things, and yes, we have to use sci-fi as a theoretical 'authority,' because it's not sci-fact, yet.

In nearly every case, the person realizes a gap is there, or a memory is fake, after being subjected to enough stimuli or time, and the ruse, fails.

You are trying very hard to go against what I asked.

What of what I originally asked. HOW IS IT UNFAIR TO MAKE YOU PLAY WHAT YOU CHOSE TO PLAY?





what are you talking about. its not some "isolationist story" it's the ******* lore at least try to learn that before trying to use it as justification. I also never said anything about lost memories you jumped to that on your own.

it has nothing to do with fair or unfair all this would do gameplay wise is force meta gaming as players simply rolled toons it what was the strongest faction for a role. thats it. so rather than having everyone be an individual we may as well just have preset characters, you know something that goes against an open ended sandbox

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Dark Lord Trump
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#36 - 2017-02-21 23:16:23 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Also, it's kinda unfair that I chose a race with the knowledge that race didn't matter, and now race suddenly matters.


And, now, we have it. You are not your character. Your character did not choose it's race. In character, it lived a life, and it is what it is, it had no choice. The fun, and the challenge, is in you taking that up, and making a good story of it, in a MU*, or in this case, a good showing with what you have.

And, if you couldn't all just meta-game, CCP would have a hell of a lot easier a time balancing this, wouldn't they?

I still don't see why me being Caldari prevents me from flying a Hurricane. I also don't see why this would make balancing any easier, since all the ships would have to be roughly equal to prevent a "best race" from being a thing, especially since there are so many people locked into their races now.


The pirate factions, I consider just that. Pirate. You have to train in two different philosophies to WARRANT being able to fly them. A Hurricane is not a pirate ship. It's a standard military ship, not that of a rogue faction breakaway.

The other guy was talking about tech being leaked, etc, etc, and it was, in character, in game, in pirate ships. And the skills to fly them are commensurate with the privilege. They are also limited, or should be. You should be able to fly, with your cross faction skills, only pirate ships that need the cross faction skill you trained, if it's that great a ship.

A Hurricane? Be a Caldari - fly a Raven. (Edit: Or a Drake, I guess)

So I can clearly learn how to fly ships that are based off of other races' tech, but I can't actually fly the ships of other races because reasons.

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!
Amojin
Doomheim
#37 - 2017-02-21 23:18:07 UTC
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
So I can clearly learn how to fly ships that are based off of other races' tech, but I can't actually fly the ships of other races because reasons.


Just because you have a US F-16 and can build one, does not mean you have the bpc to an SR-71, for example. It's meant to reflect that only a small minority of secrets will be leaked.
Dark Lord Trump
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#38 - 2017-02-21 23:20:31 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
So I can clearly learn how to fly ships that are based off of other races' tech, but I can't actually fly the ships of other races because reasons.


Just because you have a US F-16 and can build one, does not mean you have the bpc to an SR-71, for example. It's meant to reflect that only a small minority of secrets will be leaked.

So why can't I buy one off my Minmatar friend? Because again capsuleers have no loyalty to the empires.

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!
Lugh Crow-Slave
#39 - 2017-02-21 23:20:31 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
So I can clearly learn how to fly ships that are based off of other races' tech, but I can't actually fly the ships of other races because reasons.


Just because you have a US F-16 and can build one, does not mean you have the bpc to an SR-71, for example. It's meant to reflect that only a small minority of secrets will be leaked.


but my friend does and he sells it to me


now i do

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugh Crow-Slave
#40 - 2017-02-21 23:21:24 UTC
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
So I can clearly learn how to fly ships that are based off of other races' tech, but I can't actually fly the ships of other races because reasons.


Just because you have a US F-16 and can build one, does not mean you have the bpc to an SR-71, for example. It's meant to reflect that only a small minority of secrets will be leaked.

So why can't I buy one off my Minmatar friend? Because again capsuleers have no loyalty to the empires.


but their memories are you saying they loss their memories you know this has something to do with memories because reasons

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble