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Restrict players to ships of their faction (an end to meta-gaming)

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Amojin
Doomheim
#1 - 2017-02-21 21:46:12 UTC
Another proposal for CCP, and again, one they have already partially implemented, for F2P players. (F2P = Free to Play. P2P = Pays to Play)

Cut and paste from a different thread, as it was rather wildly sidetracked...
---

You can't just take, 'Hey, I have the baddest HAC! Awesome. My strategic cruiser is not so great. My Electronic Attack ships are pretty good, though. Damn. My Marauder is sub-par...' Most of you meta-game as if it's perfectly acceptable. And, to you, clearly it is.

I'm ok with having certain empires having absolutely phenomenal ships in certain classes and roles, and even a few sub-pars in others, and playing with what I have. It would be like if I decided on one of my old MU*'s that I don't like this Constitution Class relic - I want a brand new Soverign Class ship to kill everyone, or even worse, a Romulan ship. That would look great, wouldn't it, and make a lot of sense. Whatever 'captain' I'm emulating would really have access to that ship, right? No.

Did you guys ever hear the phrase, 'you have to take the good, WITH the bad?' In most of today's MMO's, no, you don't the F2P have to, but the P2P, well, they don't. They can meta-game.
---
That pretty much says it all for what I'm proposing. Make people play their factions. Would this be unfair?
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#2 - 2017-02-21 21:50:33 UTC
Americans should also stop driving European cars, and stop using Asian electronics...
Lugh Crow-Slave
#3 - 2017-02-21 21:50:37 UTC
why? I mean the reasons why not hardly need to be said but that garbled mess of a post in no way explained why this should be a thing

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Amojin
Doomheim
#4 - 2017-02-21 21:53:38 UTC
Rawketsled wrote:
Americans should also stop driving European cars, and stop using Asian electronics...



The closer thing would be equipping the US Army with AK-47's, or us sharing our submarine technology. We're not talking about commerce, here - that would be modules, I guess, as the closest in-game equivalent. Do you really think the Gallente Empire would hand out the specs to an Ishtar? The Caldari would just throw around their Tengu blueprints?
Amojin
Doomheim
#5 - 2017-02-21 21:56:14 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
why? I mean the reasons why not hardly need to be said but that garbled mess of a post in no way explained why this should be a thing


It's unreal, unreasonable, and flat out unlikely that these empires would hand out military technology to be used by their enemies

Simple enough?
Ajem Hinken
WarFear Gaming
#6 - 2017-02-21 22:07:22 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
why? I mean the reasons why not hardly need to be said but that garbled mess of a post in no way explained why this should be a thing


It's unreal, unreasonable, and flat out unlikely that these empires would hand out military technology to be used by their enemies

Simple enough?

Why do you think CONCORD is so OP compared to the player? It's obvious that the tech they hand over to the capsuleers isn't state-of-the-art, or we'd be jamming select freighters from across the system and then evaporating them as we warp in. /sarcasm

Seriously, explain it the above way if you want. Or you can explain it like how ninety nine percent of trade/military secrets got out- someone leaked them and it spread out of control.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6875494#post6875494 - Ship mounted explosives. Because explosions and Jita chaos.
Cade Windstalker
#7 - 2017-02-21 22:11:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Amojin wrote:
The closer thing would be equipping the US Army with AK-47's, or us sharing our submarine technology. We're not talking about commerce, here - that would be modules, I guess, as the closest in-game equivalent. Do you really think the Gallente Empire would hand out the specs to an Ishtar? The Caldari would just throw around their Tengu blueprints?


The different empire's ships aren't technological secrets, they're doctrines.

I can, in fact, sitting here in the US go to a gun store and buy an AK-47. The reason the US military doesn't use them is because they're generally chambered for a different cartridge from the US mil standard and the US has adopted a different rifle with a different set of tradeoffs that it has parts and a logistics chain in place for.

The various Eve empires can't keep secrets well enough from each other for this to be a valid argument. The reason the Amarr use Lasers and Armor tanks and not Projectiles and Shields is because that's what their supply chain and military doctrine is built around, not because one is strictly superior to the other.

Amojin wrote:
It's unreal, unreasonable, and flat out unlikely that these empires would hand out military technology to be used by their enemies

Simple enough?


They're not, they're selling encrypted Blueprints to Capsuleers. Also everyone has the tech for this stuff, they've just chosen to apply it in different ways.

Case and point, the Tech 3 Destroyers rollout. The group that made the breakthrough first rolled their ship out first, but the others followed soon after, because when the galactic population is in the hundreds of trillions it's not hard to find two people with the same brilliant idea about Lasers or Armor or Nanocoatings.

It's even harder to keep things a secret when massive fights keep leaving ship debris all over the cluster.

The only tech that all sides don't have access to at this point is Jovian or old-earth tech, both of which are the basis of a lot of the newer ships and structures.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#8 - 2017-02-21 22:13:30 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
why? I mean the reasons why not hardly need to be said but that garbled mess of a post in no way explained why this should be a thing


It's unreal, unreasonable, and flat out unlikely that these empires would hand out military technology to be used by their enemies

Simple enough?



i mean the base physics of this game are unreal and unreasonable but your in luck being that it is a game we are not confined to such things

... if you are going to use lore please educate yourself


1 the capsuleir is not a citizen of any empire and is certainly not in any of the military in any of the empires. even in FW you are merely a member of the militia.

2 these ships are all publicly manufactured not built by the empires.

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#9 - 2017-02-21 22:13:32 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Rawketsled wrote:
Americans should also stop driving European cars, and stop using Asian electronics...



The closer thing would be equipping the US Army with AK-47's, or us sharing our submarine technology. We're not talking about commerce, here - that would be modules, I guess, as the closest in-game equivalent. Do you really think the Gallente Empire would hand out the specs to an Ishtar? The Caldari would just throw around their Tengu blueprints?

Look up the F16 Falcon.

Who designed it?

Who is it sold to?


Australia is getting some new submarines... off DCNS, a French company.

So, French Space-America - the Gallente Federation - would indeed hand out the specs of the Ishtar.


Also, black markets are a thing. People friendly to Gallente buy datacores off them in bulk... and sell them to people that the Gallente don't like. Business is business.
Amojin
Doomheim
#10 - 2017-02-21 22:15:07 UTC
Ajem Hinken wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
why? I mean the reasons why not hardly need to be said but that garbled mess of a post in no way explained why this should be a thing


It's unreal, unreasonable, and flat out unlikely that these empires would hand out military technology to be used by their enemies

Simple enough?

Why do you think CONCORD is so OP compared to the player? It's obvious that the tech they hand over to the capsuleers isn't state-of-the-art, or we'd be jamming select freighters from across the system and then evaporating them as we warp in. /sarcasm

Seriously, explain it the above way if you want. Or you can explain it like how ninety nine percent of trade/military secrets got out- someone leaked them and it spread out of control.


In the game, they perform a similar role as the UFP did in my MU* days. We had the ships to wipe out anyone. Why? Because we were the foil for everyone else. For the game to survive, the UFP had to play a delicate balancing act, and it required a special person to grant a roy-bit or wiz-bit to, one that saw the game, as a whole, and not their faction interests.

This game, however, is code, not human judgement. CONCORDE is op because it's easier to code than to clone me, in all honesty.

They went through a lot of wiz-bits in the UFP faction before I came along, who saw all that power, and guess what, realized they could win. They NEVER had to lose. That's another form of meta-gaming. We lost, a lot. Because the plots advanced when we won only 1 in 3 engagments. We had stuff to gripe about. I'd man a station, and put up a good effort, destroying half of the attacking fleet. The code would have allowed me to kill them all. But these are human players, playing a game, to hear a story, more importantly, to play in the story, so I lost, after a 'good' fight.

While not directly applicable, the spirit of the thing, should be a part of this, imo. You should not just be allowed, for no reason at all, to fly a Tengu, if you are not Caldari. You should not be seen in an Ishtar, if you are not Gallente. There is just no reasonable way to make this even slightly believable.
Amojin
Doomheim
#11 - 2017-02-21 22:16:34 UTC
Rawketsled wrote:

Look up the F16 Falcon.

Who designed it?

Who is it sold to?


Australia is getting some new submarines... off DCNS, a French company.

So, French Space-America - the Gallente Federation - would indeed hand out the specs of the Ishtar.


Also, black markets are a thing. People friendly to Gallente buy datacores off them in bulk... and sell them to people that the Gallente don't like. Business is business.


Yes, we designed the F-16. I still like the F-8, but ok. The F-16 is sold to the Israelis, but only after we remove certain components and a lot of programming. They are our allies.

In this game, apparently, everyone is our ally?
Amojin
Doomheim
#12 - 2017-02-21 22:17:53 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
why? I mean the reasons why not hardly need to be said but that garbled mess of a post in no way explained why this should be a thing


It's unreal, unreasonable, and flat out unlikely that these empires would hand out military technology to be used by their enemies

Simple enough?



i mean the base physics of this game are unreal and unreasonable but your in luck being that it is a game we are not confined to such things

... if you are going to use lore please educate yourself


1 the capsuleir is not a citizen of any empire and is certainly not in any of the military in any of the empires. even in FW you are merely a member of the militia.

2 these ships are all publicly manufactured not built by the empires.


Then why does the capsuleer have to choose, at creation? If you remember all your skills when you die, surely, you remember who the hell you are?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#13 - 2017-02-21 22:19:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Amojin wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
why? I mean the reasons why not hardly need to be said but that garbled mess of a post in no way explained why this should be a thing


It's unreal, unreasonable, and flat out unlikely that these empires would hand out military technology to be used by their enemies

Simple enough?



i mean the base physics of this game are unreal and unreasonable but your in luck being that it is a game we are not confined to such things

... if you are going to use lore please educate yourself


1 the capsuleir is not a citizen of any empire and is certainly not in any of the military in any of the empires. even in FW you are merely a member of the militia.

2 these ships are all publicly manufactured not built by the empires.


Then why does the capsuleer have to choose, at creation? If you remember all your skills when you die, surely, you remember who the hell you are?



you pic your race and heritage but not your citizenship.

we are Gods that live above the pettiness of the mortal empires. We do not need to be tied down to their politics or morals. I mean hell this very nature of our immortality and disregard for the lives of ordinary man is why CONCORD was created. the empires soon realized that if a conflict between the immortals broke out near populated centers it could mean the end of civilization. this is why you need to have a war cleared with CONCORD before they let you engage in hostilities in high security space

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Ajem Hinken
WarFear Gaming
#14 - 2017-02-21 22:24:02 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Ajem Hinken wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
why? I mean the reasons why not hardly need to be said but that garbled mess of a post in no way explained why this should be a thing


It's unreal, unreasonable, and flat out unlikely that these empires would hand out military technology to be used by their enemies

Simple enough?

Why do you think CONCORD is so OP compared to the player? It's obvious that the tech they hand over to the capsuleers isn't state-of-the-art, or we'd be jamming select freighters from across the system and then evaporating them as we warp in. /sarcasm

Seriously, explain it the above way if you want. Or you can explain it like how ninety nine percent of trade/military secrets got out- someone leaked them and it spread out of control.


In the game, they perform a similar role as the UFP did in my MU* days. We had the ships to wipe out anyone. Why? Because we were the foil for everyone else. For the game to survive, the UFP had to play a delicate balancing act, and it required a special person to grant a roy-bit or wiz-bit to, one that saw the game, as a whole, and not their faction interests.

This game, however, is code, not human judgement. CONCORDE is op because it's easier to code than to clone me, in all honesty.

They went through a lot of wiz-bits in the UFP faction before I came along, who saw all that power, and guess what, realized they could win. They NEVER had to lose. That's another form of meta-gaming. We lost, a lot. Because the plots advanced when we won only 1 in 3 engagments. We had stuff to gripe about. I'd man a station, and put up a good effort, destroying half of the attacking fleet. The code would have allowed me to kill them all. But these are human players, playing a game, to hear a story, more importantly, to play in the story, so I lost, after a 'good' fight.

While not directly applicable, the spirit of the thing, should be a part of this, imo. You should not just be allowed, for no reason at all, to fly a Tengu, if you are not Caldari. You should not be seen in an Ishtar, if you are not Gallente. There is just no reasonable way to make this even slightly believable.

I think you've been in your race's upper high-sec too long...

If you want to only allow Caldari to use Caldari ships, why not only let Caldari be in Caldari space? Oh yeah, because there are four factions, and segregating them would ruin the openness of EvE.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6875494#post6875494 - Ship mounted explosives. Because explosions and Jita chaos.
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#15 - 2017-02-21 22:29:10 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Rawketsled wrote:

Look up the F16 Falcon.

Who designed it?

Who is it sold to?


Australia is getting some new submarines... off DCNS, a French company.

So, French Space-America - the Gallente Federation - would indeed hand out the specs of the Ishtar.


Also, black markets are a thing. People friendly to Gallente buy datacores off them in bulk... and sell them to people that the Gallente don't like. Business is business.


Yes, we designed the F-16. I still like the F-8, but ok. The F-16 is sold to the Israelis, but only after we remove certain components and a lot of programming. They are our allies.

In this game, apparently, everyone is our ally?

You seem to think that things are designed by governments. They're not. Both in-game, and in reality, things are designed by private businesses sometimes under contract and sometimes just to sell to anyone who has money.

Some governments subsequently put in place legislation that limits the sale of military equipment, but some governments do not.

The rest of the world doesn't run the same way your nation does.
Amojin
Doomheim
#16 - 2017-02-21 22:30:54 UTC
Ajem Hinken wrote:
I think you've been in your race's upper high-sec too long...

If you want to only allow Caldari to use Caldari ships, why not only let Caldari be in Caldari space? Oh yeah, because there are four factions, and segregating them would ruin the openness of EvE.


Really? There is a vast difference between allowing traffic, free trade, and 'foreigners' into a space, and assuming that they say, 'Yeah, sure, you like this awesome ship? Here, have a bpc!'

You are constructing a strawman to fight and beat, not addressing my argument.
Amojin
Doomheim
#17 - 2017-02-21 22:32:06 UTC
Rawketsled wrote:
[quote=Amojin]You seem to think that things are designed by governments. They're not. Both in-game, and in reality, things are designed by private businesses sometimes under contract and sometimes just to sell to anyone who has money.

Some governments subsequently put in place legislation that limits the sale of military equipment, but some governments do not.

The rest of the world doesn't run the same way your nation does.


I seem to think that ANYONE, governments included, if not especially, do NOT hand over advantages. Is that false?
Dark Lord Trump
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#18 - 2017-02-21 22:36:08 UTC
Either ships are successfully kept military secrets or they're not. If they are, then only the empires would have such ships as they're not going to hand them out to loose-cannon Empyreans, regardless of race. If they're not, then I see no reason why us capsuleers can't get our hands on them. I mean, if you want to only use your faction's ships, you can do that, but I see no reason why I can't fly a Hurricane just because I was born Caldari.

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#19 - 2017-02-21 22:38:03 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Rawketsled wrote:
[quote=Amojin]You seem to think that things are designed by governments. They're not. Both in-game, and in reality, things are designed by private businesses sometimes under contract and sometimes just to sell to anyone who has money.

Some governments subsequently put in place legislation that limits the sale of military equipment, but some governments do not.

The rest of the world doesn't run the same way your nation does.


I seem to think that ANYONE, governments included, if not especially, do NOT hand over advantages. Is that false?

A private business wants to make money. If selling a product or service to a foreign nation, or a foreign busiess makes more money than not selling, you'd expect a business to do so.

Businesses don't care about nations: they care about profit.
Amojin
Doomheim
#20 - 2017-02-21 22:41:20 UTC
Rawketsled wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Rawketsled wrote:
[quote=Amojin]You seem to think that things are designed by governments. They're not. Both in-game, and in reality, things are designed by private businesses sometimes under contract and sometimes just to sell to anyone who has money.

Some governments subsequently put in place legislation that limits the sale of military equipment, but some governments do not.

The rest of the world doesn't run the same way your nation does.


I seem to think that ANYONE, governments included, if not especially, do NOT hand over advantages. Is that false?

A private business wants to make money. If selling a product or service to a foreign nation, or a foreign busiess makes more money than not selling, you'd expect a business to do so.

Businesses don't care about nations: they care about profit.


The descriptions of the Amarr and Gallente Societies tell a different story, lore-wise. Do you really think Minmatar ex-slaves would create a society without treason laws, any more than Gallente would?

What you just said, PERFECTLY describes ONE society, in character, Caldari. Now, those Caldari, would they share tech, when other corps, were not? Every corporation is run, so far, by people. And people have ethics, and little hangups, and **** like remembering, oh, they enslaved us. We're not, actually, fond of that. So, no, no we're not gonna share, even though it gets us money in the short term, because our society will vilify and boycott us, and well, we'll go bankrupt...
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