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so this is there real future for new players? gate camp?

First post
Author
Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#541 - 2017-02-20 19:36:31 UTC
Hakawai wrote:
When I've used "consumable" with regard to new players it's the usual "pre-EVE-morph" dictionary meaning. It doesn't mean destroy a ship or a pod. It means do something that suggests to the player that the effort vs reward of EVE doesn't justify the time and effort required to get started in the game.

Beating someone in a battle in a computer game means they shouldn't play it?

So, you uninstall every time you lose a match in Overwatch, CoD, Counterstrike, Halo, Rocket League, Starcraft, etc?

Quote:
"You should leave the game" is a great suggestion for minimizing a new player's errors, but it's a stupid lesson to teach.

That is never the first suggestion made to someone who has an issue with getting blown up. When that player decides they would rather blame the game rather than to simply learn to play, then they're told to leave - because obviously EVE isn't for them.

EVE isn't for the weak. If you're too weak to even admit to yourself you have room for improvement, then you're too weak for EVE.

Quote:
Is that really what CCP Falcon meant? Does CCP want players to casually drive other players from the game, thereby losing their subscription money?

No, read it again.

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein

Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#542 - 2017-02-20 19:39:44 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
You have not one shred of evidence that people are driven from the game by gate camps.

And even if you did, then what? Should CCP somehow make changes to EVE Online because some human beings over the age of 13 (EVE is rated 13 and up) can't deal with minor inconveniences in a video game ?

Like I said, if you care about 'new players' do 2 things, teach them and tell them to ask themselves if they truthfully believe that they have the mental disposition needed to enjoy and thrive in EVE Online. Because if they don't have that, no amount of nerfing people you don't like (gate campers) is going to help them.

In fact, trying to 'legislate away" gate campers with development changes would follow the same stupid script as the past. People whined about other people before, like "gankers". They pleaded with CCP for help rather than learning to outplay the gankers. CCP did so with EHP buffs to some ships and anchor rigs and buffing CONCORD and new rules etc.

The end result? Ganking got worse and spread to affect more people. Turns out that nerfing someone's playstyle in order to help hapless people who already had all the tools they needed to help themselves only serves to tick off and embolden the group that got 'nerfed'. You think "gate campers" will just say "whelp CCP nerfed us, i guess Ill go away now.

No they won't they will examine the game mechanics and find ways to keep doing what they are doing, just more so.




You may ask why I care, I don't gate camp and don't have a real horse in the fight. Well , let me tell you Hakawa. I find it irritating in a way i can't really describe to see the same BS happen over and over again. It annoys me in game and in real life that people (the supposed top of the food chain) just can't learn simple lessons.

I can't talk about real life stuff here because of the forum rules, luckily there are mroe than enough in game examples. One example was Dominion Sov which CCP claimed would "open up null to smaller groups" . The null haters rejoiced , thinking CCP was about to "fix null" and "break the power of the big coalitions. What actually happened is that those groups got stronger and null turned in to Renter-stan. Goons spent SIX YEARS punishing the game for CCP's mistake.

Or like the safety buffs I mention, before all that all you had to worry about were some bored Goons ganking in high sec or burning jita from time to time, but CCPs safety buffs CREATED CODE in the same way that [insert real life situation where invading people in the name of freedom creates a worse enemy than the one you just killed here].

It's the same with everything people keep complaining about from cloakcy campers to local in null...I could go on and on about the backfires. But what heats my hide more than anything is that you simply can't get some people to understand the basic concept and the even more basic truth. Which is this : You simply cannot game design your way out of human nature. You CAN adapt and defeat others (gate camps are easy to avoid and even beat), but not with game rules changes....

Not empty quoting. It just needs to be said again for great justice.

As a TL;DR for the last paragraph: You can't patch stupid.

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#543 - 2017-02-20 20:29:48 UTC
Hiasa Kite wrote:
You can't patch stupid.
You can however leverage the stupidity of others in your favour, both in game and in real life.


In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#544 - 2017-02-20 23:06:48 UTC
Hakawai wrote:

This forum certainly makes me laugh a lot, but almost always for the wrong reasons.

Ammo is consumable - you use it and it's gone.
Ships vary, but some (like a ships used for highsec suicide ganking) are similar to ammo: destroyed on use.

But it seems the meaning of "consumable" is being is morphing as a result of my applying it to people /lol. I can only assume that a serviceable word, that's had a stable meaning for at least a century according to wikipedia, has suddenly been redefined by EVE old-timers because they're not comfortable with the implications of the thread title and the OP.

As ever, cognitive dissonance produces weird and sometimes paradoxical results /lol.

When I've used "consumable" with regard to new players it's the usual "pre-EVE-morph" dictionary meaning. It doesn't mean destroy a ship or a pod. It means do something that suggests to the player that the effort vs reward of EVE doesn't justify the time and effort required to get started in the game.

"You should leave the game" is a great suggestion for minimizing a new player's errors, but it's a stupid lesson to teach.

Is that really what CCP Falcon meant? Does CCP want players to casually drive other players from the game, thereby losing their subscription money?


So you have assumed something is true. And you complain that we use logical fallacies. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#545 - 2017-02-21 00:09:14 UTC
So where did this thread leave off - is it completely off-topic now?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

CMDR-HerpyDerpy Hurishima
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#546 - 2017-02-21 00:12:16 UTC
Cloaking is the way to go bro
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#547 - 2017-02-21 01:32:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
CMDR-HerpyDerpy Hurishima wrote:
Cloaking is the way to go bro

Tama gate is not always possible to cloak.

Wrecks, corpses, containers holding stuff ejected by the gate camp and the gate camp ships occasionally make it impossible to cloak. It's a thing of beauty as long as you didn't just jump into it and are trying to cloak within 2000m of something.

The 100% guaranteed way is to just not jump into Tama from Nouvakaiken. Enter at Tierjev->Tannolen. It's a few more jumps through highsec, but only 4 jumps from Tama in lowsec.
Akane Togenada
Doomheim
#548 - 2017-02-21 02:48:59 UTC
Hakawai wrote:
This forum certainly makes me laugh a lot, but almost always for the wrong reasons.

Ammo is consumable - you use it and it's gone.
Ships vary, but some (like a ships used for highsec suicide ganking) are similar to ammo: destroyed on use.

But it seems the meaning of "consumable" is being is morphing as a result of my applying it to people /lol. I can only assume that a serviceable word, that's had a stable meaning for at least a century according to wikipedia, has suddenly been redefined by EVE old-timers because they're not comfortable with the implications of the thread title and the OP.

As ever, cognitive dissonance produces weird and sometimes paradoxical results /lol.

When I've used "consumable" with regard to new players it's the usual "pre-EVE-morph" dictionary meaning. It doesn't mean destroy a ship or a pod. It means do something that suggests to the player that the effort vs reward of EVE doesn't justify the time and effort required to get started in the game.

"You should leave the game" is a great suggestion for minimizing a new player's errors, but it's a stupid lesson to teach.

Is that really what CCP Falcon meant? Does CCP want players to casually drive other players from the game, thereby losing their subscription money?


You are right in that ammo is cunsumable.

You are wrong on ships - infact all ships are considered consumables since it's only a matter of time before one looses them no matter how one plays the game. A ganker knows his ship will get blown up, all other players know there is always a risk their ships will and that's where the "don´t fly what you can´t afford to loose" maxim originate from.

On the term consumable I think you are overthinking the meaning of the word in EVE. Since we capsuleers are infact immortal life and death no longer hold any meaning for us. Sure it can be a pain to replace lost implants if one gets podded but it's really nothing different from replacing a lost ship or a broken module.

I can´t obviously know what CCP Falcon meant but if I where to make a guess I'd say he simply stated that it's up to everyone to find their place in New Eden. Some like me find it in company of other like-minded peaceful explorers and other find the life of a pirate, industrialist, trader or any other career path more enticing. The only advice I would always give a new player regardless of what they plan to do is: Join a Player Corporation, even solo play such as exploration becomes more fun if you belong to a group then if you play by yourself.

On the issue of players getting driven out it's really not the concern of the 'agressors' but all in the hand of the 'victims'. I live under the strict rule of the Signal Credo which both forbids me from attacking you or any other player and clearly states that I should take any losses I suffer with a cheerful nature and not whine about it. The last part is not always easy but you'd be amazed on how far it can get you when it comes to how other players interact with you after they have blown up your stuff.
Hakawai
State War Academy
Caldari State
#549 - 2017-02-21 07:22:50 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Hakawa wrote:


Is that really what CCP Falcon meant? Does CCP want players to casually drive other players from the game, thereby losing their subscription money?


You have not one shred of evidence that people are driven from the game by gate camps.

[...]

Haven't you read the thread title and the original post?

Denial doesn't change the facts. It does induce a credibility issue though.
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#550 - 2017-02-21 08:52:15 UTC
Hakawai wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Hakawa wrote:


Is that really what CCP Falcon meant? Does CCP want players to casually drive other players from the game, thereby losing their subscription money?


You have not one shred of evidence that people are driven from the game by gate camps.

[...]

Haven't you read the thread title and the original post?

Denial doesn't change the facts. It does induce a credibility issue though.


he was probably going to quit anyway as soon as someone "pvp'd" him, that sometimes happens in pvp games...

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#551 - 2017-02-21 09:12:07 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Hakawai wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Hakawa wrote:


Is that really what CCP Falcon meant? Does CCP want players to casually drive other players from the game, thereby losing their subscription money?


You have not one shred of evidence that people are driven from the game by gate camps.

[...]

Haven't you read the thread title and the original post?

Denial doesn't change the facts. It does induce a credibility issue though.


he was probably going to quit anyway as soon as someone "pvp'd" him, that sometimes happens in pvp games...

This.

Some people are just terrible at some games. I must admit I've ragequit a few PvP games. They're not bad games, sometimes I just get fed up of being outplayed over and over.

The OP claimed he lost everything. Losing a ship is a common occurrence and is understandable, but losing all you have? That's on you. He died again and again, apparently. Again, that's on no one but himself.

He's not complaining gate camps are bad, he's complaining he's bad at the game and isn't willing to accept he's the one at fault.

That's the issue at hand here.

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#552 - 2017-02-21 09:52:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Hakawai wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Hakawa wrote:


Is that really what CCP Falcon meant? Does CCP want players to casually drive other players from the game, thereby losing their subscription money?


You have not one shred of evidence that people are driven from the game by gate camps.

[...]

Haven't you read the thread title and the original post?

Denial doesn't change the facts. It does induce a credibility issue though.


Holy crap....

The thing is you have literally no evidence. None. You assume what you want to demonstrate as true. That the OP may or may not have left the game does not support your claim. You need to look at a cross section of players not just a single individual.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#553 - 2017-02-21 09:55:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Hiasa Kite wrote:

This.

Some people are just terrible at some games. I must admit I've ragequit a few PvP games.....


Heh, I rage quite Eve a few times early on, but kept coming back like the addict I am. Finally, I just admitted I was going to play this game no matter what.

As for the OP:

1. He kept doing the same thing over and over.
2. We find out that there is a twitch feed for Tama called, "Is Tama Camped".
3. He kept going into the most violent LS system, and one of top 10 violent systems in game.

And then he comes here are rage posts about how unfair it all is? But he was doing just about everything wrong. And if he did quit he did not see any of the advice that given to him on the first and second page.

Hakawai your evidence sucks ass. It is a player who almost sure was not going to make in Eve no matter what. Yes, lets radically change the game for a player like that and risk every other player the game currently has.

You literally have no sense of proportion. None at all. You should follow the OP....leave. Get out. You won't be missed because you clearly do not grasp the nature of the game.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Hakawai
State War Academy
Caldari State
#554 - 2017-02-21 10:06:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakawai
Akane Togenada wrote:
Hakawai wrote:
This forum certainly makes me laugh a lot, but almost always for the wrong reasons.

Ammo is consumable - you use it and it's gone.
Ships vary, but some (like a ships used for highsec suicide ganking) are similar to ammo: destroyed on use.

But it seems the meaning of "consumable" is being is morphing as a result of my applying it to people /lol. I can only assume that a serviceable word, that's had a stable meaning for at least a century according to wikipedia, has suddenly been redefined by EVE old-timers because they're not comfortable with the implications of the thread title and the OP.

As ever, cognitive dissonance produces weird and sometimes paradoxical results /lol.

When I've used "consumable" with regard to new players it's the usual "pre-EVE-morph" dictionary meaning. It doesn't mean destroy a ship or a pod. It means do something that suggests to the player that the effort vs reward of EVE doesn't justify the time and effort required to get started in the game.

"You should leave the game" is a great suggestion for minimizing a new player's errors, but it's a stupid lesson to teach.

Is that really what CCP Falcon meant? Does CCP want players to casually drive other players from the game, thereby losing their subscription money?


You are right in that ammo is cunsumable.

You are wrong on ships - infact all ships are considered consumables since it's only a matter of time before one looses them no matter how one plays the game. A ganker knows his ship will get blown up, all other players know there is always a risk their ships will and that's where the "don´t fly what you can´t afford to loose" maxim originate from.

On the term consumable I think you are overthinking the meaning of the word in EVE. Since we capsuleers are infact immortal life and death no longer hold any meaning for us. Sure it can be a pain to replace lost implants if one gets podded but it's really nothing different from replacing a lost ship or a broken module.

I can´t obviously know what CCP Falcon meant but if I where to make a guess I'd say he simply stated that it's up to everyone to find their place in New Eden. Some like me find it in company of other like-minded peaceful explorers and other find the life of a pirate, industrialist, trader or any other career path more enticing. The only advice I would always give a new player regardless of what they plan to do is: Join a Player Corporation, even solo play such as exploration becomes more fun if you belong to a group then if you play by yourself.

On the issue of players getting driven out it's really not the concern of the 'agressors' but all in the hand of the 'victims'. I live under the strict rule of the Signal Credo which both forbids me from attacking you or any other player and clearly states that I should take any losses I suffer with a cheerful nature and not whine about it. The last part is not always easy but you'd be amazed on how far it can get you when it comes to how other players interact with you after they have blown up your stuff.

I'm getting tired of people taking simple examples and building inaccurate claims on them. It's just distraction.

"Consumable" is a real word with a well-defined meaning. . Pretending that (as a couple of earlier posters did) "consumable", used in the context I used it, means something other than the standard definition is just another sad rhetorical trick, intended only to interfere with the discussion.


As for the capsuleer immortality: the thread is about player perceptions and behavior, not the game's back-story. Capsuleers may not care about time, but players do - and rookie's RL time is worth the same as that of experienced players. Game design or player actions which waste too much rookie time send a clear message: basic setup in EVE takes too much time for too little fun.

And since I have to expect someone will try to introduce a new, "creative" meaning of 'waste time': "wasted" time in-game means it's perceived as boring and pointless compared to more interesting EVE activities or to non-EVE activities. Those tears the fun-vampires thrive on aren't due to losing a fight or losing a ship - it's the thought of grinding boring activities for hours or days to get to the point where the game will be fun again that drives newbies away.

And to deal with the next "synthetic" counter argument: if cases where a player enjoys gathering resources to cover their losses, perhaps due to being part of the mythical "helpful and friendly Corp", it wouldn't be grinding - but of course the player would not be caught in a 0.5 - 0.4 gate camp either, so that case is well off-topic for the thread.

But back in real EVE, the vast majority of new players go through a longish period where their income doesn't match reasonable expenses (e.g. for skill books, and for replacing quite cheap ships like T1/T1 cruisers), so unlike a well established player they can be caught between "don't fly what you can't afford", and "can't afford to pay for what they need to fly".


Someone who might have been serious asked me about tangible suggestions a couple of pages ago. One would be to reduce the "income gap" players face (moderately) early, so they can afford to lose T1 Cruisers and T1 Battlecruisers. Remove the time-wasting effect of e.g. 0.5-0.4 gate camps and it significantly mitigates the undesirable effects.

But don' take that as a real suggestion. I created a thread to that effect earlier, and got the same self-serving nonsense from the fun-vamipires that dominates this thread. Net message: we're in it to be as annoying as possible - reducing the negative effects on our victims can't be good for the game because it reduces fun-vampires' rightful enjoyment of EVE.

Of if you like, they'd prefer to consume (as in drive from the game) new players than enjoy the game together with them.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#555 - 2017-02-21 10:11:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Hakawai wrote:
Remove the time-wasting effect of e.g. 0.5-0.4 gate camps and it significantly mitigates the undesirable effects.

The dumb ones like the OP will just die after the next jump into lowsec, so who cares where the pvp happens.

If they ignore the big fat warning that they don't get at all when they just jump through highsec gates, more fool them if they then die. But dying quickly is no worse than dying after the next warp, or next jump.

I'm not even a PvP player and your incessant whining is making me want to bring back the ministry of HTFU and go kill some new player in your name. Pity I can't even use anything other than a civilian gun.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#556 - 2017-02-21 10:19:00 UTC
Hakawai wrote:

I'm getting tired of people taking simple examples and building inaccurate claims on them. It's just distraction.

"Consumable" is a real word with a well-defined meaning. . Pretending that "consumable", used in the context I used it (as a couple of earlier posters did) means something other than the standard definition is just another sad rhetorical trick, intended only to interfere with the discussion.


As for the capsuleer immortality: the thread is about player perceptions and behavior, not the game's back-story. Capsuleers may not care about time, but players do - and rookie's RL time is worth the same as that of experienced players. Game design or player actions which waste too much rookie time send a clear message: basic setup in EVE takes too much time for too little fun.

And since I have to expect someone will try to introduce a new, "creative" meaning of 'waste time': "wasted" time in-game means it's perceived as boring and pointless compared to non-EVE activities. Those tears the fun-vampires thrive on aren't due to losing a fight or losing a ship - it's the thought of grinding boring activities for hours or days to get to the point where the game will be fun again that drives newbies away.

And to deal with the next "synthetic" counter argument: if cases where a player enjoys gathering resources to cover their losses, perhaps due to being part of the mythical "helpful and friendly Corp", it wouldn't be grinding - but of course the player would not be caught in a 0.5 - 0.4 gate camp either, so that case is well off-topic for the thread.

But back in real EVE, the vast majority of new players go through a longish period where their income doesn't match reasonable expenses (e.g. for skill books,m and for replacing quite cheap ships like T1/T1 cruisers), so unlike a well established player they can be caught between "don't fly what you can't afford", and "can't afford to pay for what they need to fly".

Someone who might have been serious asked me about tangible suggestions a couple opf pages ago. One would be to reduce the "income gap" players face fairly on, so they can afford to lose T1 Cruisers and T1 Battlecruisers. Remove the time-wasting effect of e.g. 0.5-0.4 gate camps and it significantly mitigates the undesirable effects.

But don' take that as a real suggestion. I created a thread to that effect earlier, and got the same self-serving nonsense from the fun-vamipires that dominates this thread. Net message: we're in it to be as annoying as possible - reducing the negative effects on our victims can't be good for the game because it reduces fun-vampires' rightful enjoyment of EVE.

Of if you like, they'd prefer to consume (as in drive from the game) new players than enjoy the game together with them.


Whatever.

No really, whatever.

You use the word "consumable" in a way contrary to its plain language meaning then whine like a petulant brat that we did not divine your special meaning. We know what consumable means, "the item is consumed--i.e. gone." It usually refers to things like food, water, electricity, and the like. In contrast there are consumer durables like washing machines, cars, and dining tables.

A player cannot be a consumable by this definition in that they are not "used up". So you clearly take a defined term and use it it in a very different way, then get all butthurt that nobody divined your special meaning.

As for time waste...Jesus are you dumb? We have all had "time wasted". When I lost a JF that represented a significant chunk of game time gone in an instant...to my own foolishness and imprudence. Was I a new player? Not if I had a JF. Thing is, I realized I made a mistake. I was upset...at myself. Not at the guys who took advantage of my imprudence.

I have had other bits and pieces of time "wasted" as well as I died to war decs, gate camps, etc.

And the problem with trying to address income inequality in the game is that pretty much whatever you do, the rest of us will abuse the crap out of it. That is what has happened time and time again.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Hakawai
State War Academy
Caldari State
#557 - 2017-02-21 10:22:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakawai
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Hakawai wrote:
Remove the time-wasting effect of e.g. 0.5-0.4 gate camps and it significantly mitigates the undesirable effects.

The dumb ones like the OP will just die after the next jump into lowsec, so who cares where the pvp happens.

If they ignore the big fat warning that they don't get at all when they just jump through highsec gates, more fool them if they then die. But dying quickly is no worse than dying after the next warp, or next jump.

I'm not even a PvP player and your incessant whining is making me want to bring back the ministry of HTFU and go kill some new player in your name. Pity I can't even use anything other than a civilian gun.

"If it's not perfect it's not worth considering" ?

This is a general purpose call to inaction, not a useful comment.

We've been through the "warning sign" discussion twice already. If your implied advice was followed, no new(ish) (currently solo) player would ever enter lowsec. "Be careful what you wish for .... ".
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#558 - 2017-02-21 10:25:06 UTC
Hakawai wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Hakawai wrote:
Remove the time-wasting effect of e.g. 0.5-0.4 gate camps and it significantly mitigates the undesirable effects.

The dumb ones like the OP will just die after the next jump into lowsec, so who cares where the pvp happens.

If they ignore the big fat warning that they don't get at all when they just jump through highsec gates, more fool them if they then die. But dying quickly is no worse than dying after the next warp, or next jump.

I'm not even a PvP player and your incessant whining is making me want to bring back the ministry of HTFU and go kill some new player in your name. Pity I can't even use anything other than a civilian gun.

"If it's not perfect it not worth considering" ?

This is a general purpose call to inaction, not a useful comment.

We've been through the "warning sign" discussion twice already. If your implied advice was followed, no new player would ever enter lowsec. "Be careful what you wish for".


But you keep ignoring that the guy kept doing the same thing expecting different results in one of the most dangerous systems in game. The guy was doing something stupid...repeatedly.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Yebo Lakatosh
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#559 - 2017-02-21 10:52:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Yebo Lakatosh
Teckos Pech wrote:
the guy kept doing the same thing expecting different results in one of the most dangerous systems in game. The guy was doing something stupid...repeatedly.
Well he lost the grand total of two herons in a 6-day time period. I wouldn't say "kept doing" or "repeatedly" for that. He just did quit after the first sign of resistance.

And that feels like a totally all right stance for someone who is opposed to looking up information, or finding experienced buddies. EvE is not for everybody, as I'm starting to see.

But the op's reaction to losses still sounds a lot more sane than going to the forum, and presistently trying to convince people that a system where you need information to be succesfull is flawed. Or suspecting that all the people with more experience who try to give helpful advice are having ulterior motives to mislead - probably to lengthen the suffering of those who believe them in this purgatory.

Elite F1 pilot since YC119, incarnate of honor, integrity and tidi.

Akane Togenada
Doomheim
#560 - 2017-02-21 16:16:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Akane Togenada
Hakawai wrote:
As for the capsuleer immortality: the thread is about player perceptions and behavior, not the game's back-story. Capsuleers may not care about time, but players do - and rookie's RL time is worth the same as that of experienced players. Game design or player actions which waste too much rookie time send a clear message: basic setup in EVE takes too much time for too little fun.

It's the thought of grinding boring activities for hours or days to get to the point where the game will be fun again that drives newbies away.

And to deal with the next "synthetic" counter argument: if cases where a player enjoys gathering resources to cover their losses, perhaps due to being part of the mythical "helpful and friendly Corp", it wouldn't be grinding - but of course the player would not be caught in a 0.5 - 0.4 gate camp either, so that case is well off-topic for the thread.

But back in real EVE, the vast majority of new players go through a longish period where their income doesn't match reasonable expenses (e.g. for skill books,m and for replacing quite cheap ships like T1/T1 cruisers), so unlike a well established player they can be caught between "don't fly what you can't afford", and "can't afford to pay for what they need to fly"..


Ok ... first I want to know what you consider "a long time for basic setup" ? Basic Exploration training as in good enough to go wormhole diving is about 2 days of training. The ship used will be exceptionally cheap and thus easy to replace several times over even for a brand new player whose only income have been the career missions. If the player manages to get salvage from one wormhole relic site back to station it's value will likely cover another 5-10 ships or so depending on which Pirate faction the site belongs to.

I'm not sure what boring activities you mean a new player have to do to get to where the game is fun, care to elaborate ?

I think you are wrong in that new players can´t constantly afford skill books early on. If we talk Omega the only skill book you might want quite early on that's expensive is Cloaking at 3,5 mil. Any other expensive skillbooks mean the new player have rushed for a bigger ship without training support skills first and that's a horrible idea regardless of career path chosen.

There is no such thing as "can´t afford to pay for what they need to fly" ... or are you talking about a mission runner that have rushed for L3-4 security missions to quick and ends up buying replacement Cruisers/Battlecruisers that chews through their wallets. In that case the mission runner should have kept doing L2 missions (there's quite a few that can be easily done in a Destroyer even with bad support skills) until having a suitable amount of ISK to be able to afford graduating to a bigger more expensive ship.