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The Noctis and it's fall from grace (Touching on comments from CSM 11)
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Pondsworth
Abyss Cooperative
#41 - 2017-02-19 21:26:55 UTC
Just tossing this out there, I run LvL 4 missions in Hi-Sec in a Cerberus and have never thought it inconvenient to go get my Noctis to go vacume up the salvage.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#42 - 2017-02-20 05:34:49 UTC
Pondsworth wrote:
Just tossing this out there, I run LvL 4 missions in Hi-Sec in a Cerberus and have never thought it inconvenient to go get my Noctis to go vacume up the salvage.

Except it's worth more to just run another mission.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Pondsworth
Abyss Cooperative
#43 - 2017-02-20 14:58:44 UTC
It depends on how you look at it. I have a lot of rig BPO's and BPC's. when I want to build one either to put in a new ship or sell, I don't spend a single ISK. All the cargo I get I dump in a 'junk' storage can and then every other month or so I run it all to Jita. Even selling below market it's all free ISK.

Also a factor, after spending a long time on a mission, I'm ready to do something else and I don't always want to run another mission.
Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2017-02-20 15:41:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Matthias Ancaladron
Double
Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2017-02-20 15:42:27 UTC
I've seen someone who uses one with drones after finishing sites with a nightmare but it seems horribly impractical. I feel like I can do it faster already with just a mobile depot and mtu which I carry with me compulsively at this point.
By the time I'm done killing my wrecks are nearly collected and I can pop off my guns and switch to salvagers. Now that I've found I can select all the turrets salvagers and drag them onto the hull in the fitting screen rather than havi n to equip one at a time speeds me up even more by a few seconds.
I couldn't see myself spend 100m to fit a ship that does the same thing in more time for more money.
Maybe if you gave it bonuses that let it get something like 5km/s speed and triple range on a passive targeter but then you have a high slot going to a passive targeting so you can focus on looting and salvaging. But again. The mtu does it automatically and I can salvage faster with 5-6 salvagers on pre emptied wrecks. Not counting the bonuses it gets.

Also the single most crucial aspect about the Noctis no ones mentioned yet.
That is one ugly ******* ship. It will never be popular looking that ugly.

Serendipity Lost wrote:
The way to restore the noctis to a state of grace is two fold.

1. remove deployables that automate tractoring - if it's not worth your time, then leave the wrecks behind


https://youtu.be/fBVhfdduwfo
Arcturus Ursidae
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2017-02-20 20:06:07 UTC
Not used one of these in a long time but turns out I still have one tucked away somewhere.

At this point I don't see the deployable's going away.

One option I see of value would be perhaps making the ship bonuses also apply to deployed mtu's.

Perhaps then drop a couple of highs to lows to allow for more tank, agility or cargo.

Alternatively if it had a bonus to produce more salvage or perhaps rarer salvage that could give it an edge.
Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2017-02-21 05:16:42 UTC
Arcturus Ursidae wrote:
Not used one of these in a long time but turns out I still have one tucked away somewhere.

At this point I don't see the deployable's going away.

One option I see of value would be perhaps making the ship bonuses also apply to deployed mtu's.

Perhaps then drop a couple of highs to lows to allow for more tank, agility or cargo.

Alternatively if it had a bonus to produce more salvage or perhaps rarer salvage that could give it an edge.

I remember a post somewhere where someone wanted to make a bonus that allowed a small percent chance you could recover destroyed equipment but that would interfere with tickets if someone lost a ship due to a bug or socket close and petitioned to have the ship returned possibly.
Andrew Indy
Cleaning Crew
#48 - 2017-02-22 08:09:13 UTC
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:

I remember a post somewhere where someone wanted to make a bonus that allowed a small percent chance you could recover destroyed equipment but that would interfere with tickets if someone lost a ship due to a bug or socket close and petitioned to have the ship returned possibly.


Just give it a 5% bonus to salvage amount as well cycle time per level. Getting more salvage would entice people to use it.

Hell a number of people think that's the way salvaging works anyway (amount per lvl not chance )
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2017-02-22 12:49:43 UTC
Andrew Indy wrote:
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:

I remember a post somewhere where someone wanted to make a bonus that allowed a small percent chance you could recover destroyed equipment but that would interfere with tickets if someone lost a ship due to a bug or socket close and petitioned to have the ship returned possibly.


Just give it a 5% bonus to salvage amount as well cycle time per level. Getting more salvage would entice people to use it.

Hell a number of people think that's the way salvaging works anyway (amount per lvl not chance )

Hm.... Why yes?

Actually it looks well to give Noctis such bonus:
- salvaging drones for convenience/Noctis for more salvage
- manual work gives better results

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2017-02-22 12:50:32 UTC
Andrew Indy wrote:
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:

I remember a post somewhere where someone wanted to make a bonus that allowed a small percent chance you could recover destroyed equipment but that would interfere with tickets if someone lost a ship due to a bug or socket close and petitioned to have the ship returned possibly.


Just give it a 5% bonus to salvage amount as well cycle time per level. Getting more salvage would entice people to use it.

Hell a number of people think that's the way salvaging works anyway (amount per lvl not chance )

Actually it looks reasonable to give Noctis such bonus:
- salvaging drones for convenience/Noctis for more salvage
- manual work gives better results

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#51 - 2017-02-22 15:40:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Honestly - I still wouldn't use it for salvaging. You can fit a Hecate for salvage duty that will literally run circles around a Noctis. Just drop a MTU before you complete the mission, bookmark then return with a Hecate. It's a fraction of the price and far less skill-intensive. When you're running T2 salvagers you already have all the bonuses you need. The Hecate aligns in just over a second, warps well over 10 AU/s with implants, 2700m/s cap stable MWD speed, almost 1000m3 cargo, 400+ scan resolution and can lock 10 targets with 5 salvagers.

Why would you want a Noctis? The answer is: you wouldn't.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#52 - 2017-02-22 16:39:45 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Honestly - I still wouldn't use it for salvaging. You can fit a Hecate for salvage duty that will literally run circles around a Noctis. Just drop a MTU before you complete the mission, bookmark then return with a Hecate. It's a fraction of the price and far less skill-intensive. When you're running T2 salvagers you already have all the bonuses you need. The Hecate aligns in just over a second, warps well over 10 AU/s with implants, 2700m/s cap stable MWD speed, almost 1000m3 cargo, 400+ scan resolution and can lock 10 targets with 5 salvagers.

Why would you want a Noctis? The answer is: you wouldn't.



Your statement is true for HS. Any other part of Eve - maybe not so much.

The noctis can leverage its long tractor range and tractoring speed to improve salvaging's survival margin quite some bit. The noctice can orbit a beacon far out of point range and keep moving while salvaging - eliminating the quick and easy warp in for any tackling ships. As noted earlier - for wh sites - the salvage IS the site, and no local makes the noctis a great option.

Based on that, I would say the noctis IS working as intended. The basis of this whole thread seems (upon reflection) to be based on HS folks that don't have to worry about salvager security wanting improved functionality because they have never even had a need for what the noctis actually brings to the table.

Based on the relative size of HS compared to the rest of New Eden I would say the noctis is a great ship in most of Eve. You HS MTU jockeys should probably park your noctis and go the salvaging destroyer route. But please don't lobby to rework a perfectly good ship because it doesn't suit your HS level 4 mission needs. Honestly - the MTU gave you a huge leg up on salvaging - take your good deal and be happy - don't use it as a springboard to get more even faster at the expense of game play in the non-HS part of the game.


Brief history of salvaging:
1. Salvaging introduced to the game - yeah.... new stuff to do.
2. Salvaging destroyer became a thing.
3. Salvaging was deemed 'too hard/difficult/boring/(and so on) due to short range or salvagers and travel time.
4. To the forums lads - lobby / whine / complain / and so on
5. CCP gifts players with the noctis and there was much happiness.
6. Short period of time passes.
7. MTU is introduced to the game - much happiness
8. Short time passes.
9. Noctis is deemed obsolete by MTU in HS.
10. To the forums lads - this broken ship NEEDS to be fixed.
11. Here we are.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#53 - 2017-02-23 00:57:48 UTC
Serendipity Lost - all your points are completely valid. If the Noctis is still effective outside of high-sec then it probably doesn't need an overhaul. Still, if they were to give it a minor balance pass and buff a few of the stats (cargo capacity, maybe a slot or two) I don't think that would be totally unreasonable, either.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Sheeth Athonille
Rabid Dogz Mining
#54 - 2017-02-23 06:58:18 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Honestly - I still wouldn't use it for salvaging. You can fit a Hecate for salvage duty that will literally run circles around a Noctis. Just drop a MTU before you complete the mission, bookmark then return with a Hecate. It's a fraction of the price and far less skill-intensive. When you're running T2 salvagers you already have all the bonuses you need. The Hecate aligns in just over a second, warps well over 10 AU/s with implants, 2700m/s cap stable MWD speed, almost 1000m3 cargo, 400+ scan resolution and can lock 10 targets with 5 salvagers.

Why would you want a Noctis? The answer is: you wouldn't.


Only problem I have with this is how the hell is a hecate less skill intensive than a noctis? The catalyst I'll definitely give you is less skill intensive, but the hecate requires far more skills than the noctis.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#55 - 2017-02-23 06:59:28 UTC
There's nothing wrong with a Catalyst, either.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
erg cz
Federal Jegerouns
#56 - 2017-02-23 08:57:12 UTC
8 bonused hardpoints for salvagers + 5 salvage drones still makes Noctis best ship to salvage multiply heaps of wrecks, gathered by MTU in the same system. Which happens all the time in properly farmed null sec areas. Catalyst lacks cargo space, bonus for salvagers and ability to use drones on free hunt for wrecks. You must be joking about hecate, cause it has even less hardpoints, than catalyst.
Main problem of noctis is low warp speed and poor agility. Do not understand, why not that big non-combat ship must be so clumsy... Gnosis has basis time to warp about 6 secunds, Harbinger (same mass as Noctis) - 12, noctis - about 20.

Absolutely free head start for newcomers!. Just click the link and get extra 250 000 SP!
Base Instinct
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2017-02-23 11:02:58 UTC
Compare the cost of a fitted Noctis with a fitted salvage dessie.

That is why you never see them in WHs anymore.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#58 - 2017-02-23 15:09:33 UTC
Base Instinct wrote:
Compare the cost of a fitted Noctis with a fitted salvage dessie.

That is why you never see them in WHs anymore.



They get used quite a bit. They are a lot faster than dessy, so for large high end site running clean ups - folks like them. For salvaging a bunch of gas site wrecks - they get used quite a bit - because of the low number or wrecks their range bonus really shines for those not interested in having their salvage ship blown up.

I would offer that you don't see them because the folks that use them are pro wh folk. You don't see them because of player ability, not because they don't get used. Proper hole monitoring and a cloak (as needed) probably have more to do with it.

If a wh corp is comparing destroyer and noctis cost and factoring that into their choice..... get better at wh??? I don't know many successful wh folk that consider the cost of anything.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#59 - 2017-02-23 15:18:17 UTC
In high-sec, if you're not running a Marauder for L4 clears/looting you're just doing it wrong. Outside of high-sec it sounds like the Noctis still has a vital role to play.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#60 - 2017-02-23 15:32:39 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
In high-sec, if you're not running a Marauder for L4 clears/looting you're just doing it wrong. Outside of high-sec it sounds like the Noctis still has a vital role to play.



I would agree to viable. Vital may be overstating. Big smile

I suppose overall I think it's fine as is. If the impetus for 'making it better' is because MTUs have made loot collection easier, then no change - the MTU users just need to understand they have it pretty good and don't need even mo' betterer. The whole power creep thing being the concern.


I mean seriously, if someone decides to quite Eve because the noctis isn't as useful as it once was (because MTU's improved looting) then great - didn't want to hang with THAT GUY anyway.