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It's Kyonoke
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Jev North
Doomheim
#61 - 2017-02-16 01:16:22 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Don't be silly. A city? A few orbital installations? Greater numbers than those represent get killed every day in space. The cosmos will never notice the extra bloodshed.

Hm, yes. I encourage the efforts made so far -- mostly because I believe every day the pilots involved spend twisting in the wind, not doing Empire wetwork or pirate extermination, saves many more lives than the useless supplies and public verbiage ever will.

Even though our love is cruel; even though our stars are crossed.
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2017-02-16 01:56:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayallah
It is irrelevant. Either they can contain it or they cannot. If they cannot then they will have to kill everyone or let everyone die.

The time between is time both to look for a cure and watch the suffering. They will make the choice when they have to and nothing we say here is going to influence that.


History will tell if it was right.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2017-02-16 03:35:23 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
It is irrelevant. Either they can contain it or they cannot. If they cannot then they will have to kill everyone or let everyone die.

The time between is time both to look for a cure and watch the suffering. They will make the choice when they have to and nothing we say here is going to influence that.


History will tell if it was right.


Kyonoke is a prion disease, nothing more than proteins with a malignant structural configuration. They bind with other proteins and change their structural configuration to make more of themselves, but otherwise, the prion is not 'alive' any more than a virus is alive. As there are no cures for a viral infection (since there is nothing to kill), there won't be any cures for a prion disease, especially not Kyonoke. The best we can hope for is to develop treatments, most likely in the form peptides designed specifically to block the active sites of the Kyonoke prion or nanites to specifically target specific amino acid sequences in Kyonoke.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#64 - 2017-02-16 05:30:26 UTC
Doctor Valate wrote:
I feel I have to point something out at this stage.

If this Kyonoke agent is confirmed in the other incidents, than pilots must be aware of what it is they may be asked to do to help by the relevant authorities.

They will not be requiring logistics, or medical supplies, or other such help.

They will require capsuleers to, without mercy, hunt down any unauthorised vessel, civilian or military, attempting to flee the containment zones.

Pilots must be aware that such measures may be what is required to contain the situation, and if they are not comfortable with the idea of firing on unarmed civilian vessels, then they must stay out of the quarantine zone.

Pilots must be aware that every vessel that is allowed to escape could cause the deaths of not millions, but possibly billions, or even trillions of other people.

You may not be able to live with yourself if you shoot down a ship carrying a hundred innocents, but what if those passengers go on, and infect New Caldari Prime ? Or Gallentia ? Or Matar ? Or Athra ? Could you live with yourself then, if you allowed that to happen ?

Be Aware that you may be required to shoot innocents, to protect billions more.

If you're not comfortable with that, then stay away from the quarantine zone. Your presence would only be detrimental.

Those, who wouldn't be able to shoot at civilian transport in order to protect their State and their brothers with sisters in arms, their families and friends, they don't deserve the ability to control the combat ship in the first place. Such cowardice would be a dishonorable disgrace that would cost trillions of lives because of pilot's inability to shoot target only because it was "civilian".

And, while such behavior might be common in the Federation, I am proud that among loyal Caldari pilots you barely will find someone who will display such cowardice.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Merchant Rova
Tidal Lock
Vapor-Lock
#65 - 2017-02-16 13:45:42 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
And, while such behavior might be common in the Federation, I am proud that among loyal Caldari pilots you barely will find someone who will display such cowardice.

1) Generic insult against Gallenteans in a thread that really had nothing to do with them
Check.

RIP Merchant Rova's cheekbones, YC118-YC119. Forever in our hearts.
Batachikan
#66 - 2017-02-16 16:24:32 UTC
I agree with Commander Kim. Ruthless action will be required.

I was expecting to be assigned among the heathen shortly, but orders have come through directing me back to my old unit. It appears that we will be tasked with hunting down any who evade quarantine in the region, should that order come. Such a sanction may be applied to refugees from Solitude too, should that incident escalate in an unwelcome manner, unless the Federal authorities instigate their own border security measures.
Crayons
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2017-02-16 18:10:19 UTC
Now, I don't know much about this plague, but shouldn't you be fine as long as you use protection?
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#68 - 2017-02-17 01:09:25 UTC
Crayons wrote:
Now, I don't know much about this plague, but shouldn't you be fine as long as you use protection?


The prion penetrates hazmat suits. I doubt face-masks or anything of the sort is going to stop you from getting infected.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Ria NieyIi
#69 - 2017-02-17 02:06:37 UTC
A suit inlaid with a mesh that's thick enough to prevent the plague agent passing through shouldn't be too hard. However, proofing the seals that let you put it together is a bit more complicated. That is assuming we know how big the agent is. Will give me something to bang my head against for the time being.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2017-02-17 02:43:37 UTC
Ria NieyIi wrote:
A suit inlaid with a mesh that's thick enough to prevent the plague agent passing through shouldn't be too hard. However, proofing the seals that let you put it together is a bit more complicated. That is assuming we know how big the agent is. Will give me something to bang my head against for the time being.


So, building a new suit from scratch to deal with Kyonoke. As of current, none of our existing suits had worked in keeping the agent out.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Ria NieyIi
#71 - 2017-02-17 03:04:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Ria NieyIi
The theory behind it is simple enough. Think of it as a chain link fence. If the holes are large enough, you can put your fist through one. Make them smaller and you can only manage a finger, make the smaller and...

This method is already used for water purification purposes on some planets. Just make the hole small enough.

Or you could always use chainsaw-equipped drones. Whatever floats your goat.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#72 - 2017-02-17 03:33:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Ria NieyIi wrote:
The theory behind it is simple enough. Think of it as a chain link fence. If the holes are large enough, you can put your fist through one. Make them smaller and you can only manage a finger, make the smaller and...

This method is already used for water purification purposes on some planets. Just make the hole small enough.

Or you could always use chainsaw-equipped drones. Whatever floats your goat.


I say use drones. Again, I am pointing out the current generation of hazmat suits which could isolate the wearers from even the smallest viruses didn't work against Kyonoke. No idea what's the micron of the Kyonoke prion and I'm not considering finding it out.

Considering that the prion couldn't leave the pit without intervention from outside factors, it's likely that the prion is vulnerable to cosmic radiation. Any drone used inside the quarantine zone should thus be bombarded with radiation until thoroughly sterilised before retrieval from the clean room. No chances. Deep scan the drones to ensure no traces of prion remains.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#73 - 2017-02-17 04:20:57 UTC
If Kyonoke is difficult to distinguish from regular proteins, then that implies a range of 5nm to 50nm. For example, standard domestic dust filtration usually stops anything down to .3 micrometers, which is to say 300nm.

It's worth noting that viruses range from 20nm to 400nm, on average, so that leaves a relatively narrow range of 5nm to 20nm that would penetrate air filters suitable for removing airborne viruses.

Of course, full biohazard safety requires isolated air supplies in an overpressurized suit and multiple decontamination steps-- assuming you don't just do the really smart thing and just use drones and a completely isolated hot lab, but sometimes there's no truly suitable replacement for an intern in a hazard suit.

The issue, of course, is that any decently self-contained hazard suit will be effectively indistinguishable from a spacesuit for purposes of contamination, which lends the question of how something the size of a protein is able to penetrate the suit at all. Considering the original stories of the Kyonoke outbreak, I suspect the hazard suits aboard the ship investigating weren't proper BSL gear.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Ria NieyIi
#74 - 2017-02-17 04:31:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Ria NieyIi
If the hazard suits relied on pressure difference to keep the agent out and didn't, that implies that it can overcome the pressure by some means. Which means that it might be a more advanced lifeform than we realise.
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#75 - 2017-02-17 06:50:58 UTC
That's what vexes me about this.

We talk as if it's this evil sentient thing, some chimeric pathogen that is somehow virus, bacteria, and prion all in one, able to breach defenses at a whim, invulnerable to very nearly any counter. But how could it be? If it's 5nm to 20nm in size, there is an absolute limit to its potential composition or abilities based on physical law and the vagaries of biochemistry.

The issue, essentially, is that we lack anything more than the barest sketch of information about the first encounters, and the situation on the ground has been too chaotic and uncertain for any reasonable data to be gathered, so Kyonoke has become an almost mythical threat.

We must learn more.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Fraea Nikkishina
Kobold Korp
#76 - 2017-02-17 07:06:56 UTC
As Priano-haani hints at, the answers to many questions would likely be found in an understanding of the exact protein folding of the Kyonoke prion. There is no convenient way to safeguard against the pathogen until we understand this facet of its existence.

That is what makes understanding this plague challenging. It is not caused by an entity that is in any sense "alive" any more than the amino acids you consume in your daily diet.
Ria NieyIi
#77 - 2017-02-17 08:07:59 UTC
I have to admit, biology is a bit out of my sphere of competence, but 5-20nm is too small to be even a single cell organism and yet, moving through pressurised suits would suggest that it is. Do we know the actual specs of the suits? Too many unknowns.
Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#78 - 2017-02-18 07:17:29 UTC
The only thing at the moment we actually can do ourselves at the moment is to pray for those, who got trapped inside quarantine zones. Their fates are in His hands, not ours.

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Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#79 - 2017-02-18 11:03:34 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
That's what vexes me about this.

We talk as if it's this evil sentient thing, some chimeric pathogen that is somehow virus, bacteria, and prion all in one, able to breach defenses at a whim, invulnerable to very nearly any counter. But how could it be? If it's 5nm to 20nm in size, there is an absolute limit to its potential composition or abilities based on physical law and the vagaries of biochemistry.

The issue, essentially, is that we lack anything more than the barest sketch of information about the first encounters, and the situation on the ground has been too chaotic and uncertain for any reasonable data to be gathered, so Kyonoke has become an almost mythical threat.

We must learn more.


Microbiology is outside my sphere of expertise and what little I do know comes from deep reading of various materials about it. I can't help with that research.

I could help to fabricate a drone to assist in hot lab operations and the retrieval of Kyonoke samples from infected zones or just study the thing remotely in a lab inside the quarantine zone, but really, you don't need me to do that. There's plenty enough drones suitable for the purpose floating around in the market already.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#80 - 2017-02-18 14:16:50 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
I could help to fabricate a drone to assist in hot lab operations and the retrieval of Kyonoke samples from infected zones or just study the thing remotely in a lab inside the quarantine zone, but really, you don't need me to do that. There's plenty enough drones suitable for the purpose floating around in the market already.


Considering that the Caldari State's apparently been studying the thing at the Pit on-site and from a distance, it seems possible that nobody's figured out a good method for containment. It looks like even the parties responsible for the current outbreak have suffered casualties, and might actually just all be dead, at least the ones who've actually been handling it personally.

Hopefully the various quarantine measures hold, but retrieving a sample is presently very likely to cause a quarantine breach unless you already know exactly what you're doing.

Which, none of us do.

Please don't mess around with this stuff? We don't need the additional megadeaths.