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How to improve Faction Warfare
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Boozbaz
Securitech Industries
#1 - 2017-02-16 05:20:09 UTC
I started a thread a few days ago that discusses Suitonia's suggestions on how to improve faction warfare: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=511134&find=unread

TL;DR version:

Quote:
I think he makes a great suggestion, and I want to elaborate on it.

The idea is this: LP Payouts on flipping plexes and running FW missions are based on two factors: A) What tier your entire faction is currently at. And B) What tier you are personally at. Then if your faction is at T1, but you personally (or your corporation) is at T5, then you get medium level rewards (current T3 rewards). And if both your Faction and you personally are at T5, then you get what is currently T5 rewards.


So what's the problem that this system would solve? The following elaborates on the problem in FW, particularly between Minmatar and Amarr.

The problem is related to how the tier system works in Faction Warfare. Say for example, that your faction is at Tier 1 - you get little payouts for flipping plexes. This is supposed to incentivize taking over territory and pushing your faction up into higher tiers.

The problem is that when a faction is in Tier 1, a lot of players give up on trying to push it up into higher tiers. This makes it very hard for the few remaining loyal players who continue to fight to bring it back up. Those who continue grinding plexes in a T1 faction make less than 30 million isk per hour. I'd say they make maybe 10-15 million ISK per hour by flipping novice/small plexes, dealing with PVP situations, and losing ships. Personally, I don't think 10-15 million ISK per hour is enough to warrant flipping plexes - and I can understand why so many players leave when a faction is struggling in T1.

One might argue that plexing isn't meant to be a source of income, it's meant to be a place to fight. If that's the case, why not just take away all LP payout for flipping plexes, and let them sit there? Who is going to sit in a plex and wait inside of it for 10-39 minutes when there's only two reasons for being inside of it: A) Getting fights in ships that are of similar power level to your own. And B) Grinding your faction up into higher tiers of LP payouts for running FW missions? I'm just going to go on a limb here and say this: very few players. If you wanted to get fights, it would be much faster just to roam around asking people to duel you on a stargate.

What bothers me, is what happens when these loyal, diligent players grind the plexes in the faction warfare zone, and get their faction back up to Tier 2/3/4; because when a Faction hits higher tiers of rewards, all of a sudden other players join the party and start farming LP, reaping the rewards of the hard work of the players who were loyal and stuck around to get thier Faction out of a rut. And also making it that much harder for the opposite side to regain territory. So the pendulum swings back and forth. When should you join Minmatar Faction Warfare? Well when Minmatar is winning! When should you join Amarr Faction Warfare? Again, the answer is when Amarr is winning!

I hope what I'm saying make sense to you. I like the idea of individual players or corporations having their own tier of rewards, because then those few loyal players who grind away while a faction is losing a warzone still get rewarded well for doing so. And those who jump in when the going is good, have to actually work their way up the tiers to get good rewards.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#2 - 2017-02-16 07:02:45 UTC
all i see happening with this is it forcing players to join already established large FW groups and punish any that want to start their own or join a new one

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2017-02-16 08:32:08 UTC
A easy solution would be make the payout depending on the tier side of the opposide faction.

THis way the "weaker" faction can make lp via Plexes and the "stronger" faction can make Lp via Missions.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#4 - 2017-02-16 08:43:53 UTC
but if you want lp missions are already more farm-able and a lot of us in FW use the plex lp to fund pvp forcing us to run missions because we are doing well is not a motivating mechanic

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Boozbaz
Securitech Industries
#5 - 2017-02-16 09:45:02 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
all i see happening with this is it forcing players to join already established large FW groups and punish any that want to start their own or join a new one


Not necessarily. you could just tie it to individuals instead of corps. Or, you could make it work like reputation does. If you have a corp with a lot of players that have terrible standings with a faction, the whole corp gets kicked out of the militia. Likewise, if you have a corp with one guy who farmed the corp up to T5 rewards, and he recruits like 100 rookies that have only just started FW, it could bring the whole corp down to T1 rewards. Know'm'sayin?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#6 - 2017-02-16 09:46:47 UTC
Boozbaz wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
all i see happening with this is it forcing players to join already established large FW groups and punish any that want to start their own or join a new one


Not necessarily. you could just tie it to individuals instead of corps. Or, you could make it work like reputation does. If you have a corp with a lot of players that have terrible standings with a faction, the whole corp gets kicked out of the militia. Likewise, if you have a corp with one guy who farmed the corp up to T5 rewards, and he recruits like 100 rookies that have only just started FW, it could bring the whole corp down to T1 rewards. Know'm'sayin?


so now you will punish groups for recruiting new players?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Boozbaz
Securitech Industries
#7 - 2017-02-16 10:40:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Boozbaz
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Boozbaz wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
all i see happening with this is it forcing players to join already established large FW groups and punish any that want to start their own or join a new one


Not necessarily. you could just tie it to individuals instead of corps. Or, you could make it work like reputation does. If you have a corp with a lot of players that have terrible standings with a faction, the whole corp gets kicked out of the militia. Likewise, if you have a corp with one guy who farmed the corp up to T5 rewards, and he recruits like 100 rookies that have only just started FW, it could bring the whole corp down to T1 rewards. Know'm'sayin?


so now you will punish groups for recruiting new players?


Are you on crack or something? Is the current reputation systems considered oppressive because your corp can literally get kicked out of militia if enough of it's members have terrible standings? So what's worse, your corp gets kicked out of militia, or your corp is at T1 rewards because most of your members aren't pulling their weight in the warzone? Get real m8.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#8 - 2017-02-16 11:16:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
except the current system does not penalize you for having a new player with no standing your suggested system would.

Quote:

and he recruits like 100 rookies that have only just started FW, it could bring the whole corp down to T1 rewards. Know'm'sayin?


unlike with standings where if you take in 100 rookies you take no penalties in FW. Only if you take in 100 players who have been around long enough to have poor standings and even then only if you do not have at least 100 in your corp with good standings

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Tzun Solette
Doomheim
#9 - 2017-02-16 11:23:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Tzun Solette
I's a bad idea cause you don't really understand how the LP system works.

Let me explain it to you on a simple example.

After a couple of months of war, Amarr won and is at tier 4, Minmatar is at tier 1.

Amarr pilotes gets on avg 50k lp per offensive plex and Minmatar pilotes gets on avg 20k per offensive plex. A bit less for defensive plexing. Plex takes on avg 20 minutes including running and combat time. Therefore, 150k/hour for Amarr and 60k/hour for Minmatar.

Also smarter Amarr pilotes gets crazy amount for doing l4 fw missions.
Also a lot of Minmatar players switch sides and join Amarr militia on their alts.
There are less and less systems to conquer. More people are doing l4 missions. It's a boring farmfiesta.
However assuming that there is constant and equal demand for items from each faction's fw lp store and Anarr fw items supply is growing and growin and growing, while Minmatar fw items supply is droping, the reward for both sides are different.
Amarr started at 1k ISK for lp, now they are at 500 ISK/lp, while Minmatar guys are getting 2000 ISK/lp. The longer Amarr is winning like that, the lower their ISK/lp ratio is and the higher Minmatar's ratio is.
Therefore majority of Amarr players either quits fw for some time and do some other stuff or switch sides and join Minmatar, and then Minmatar starts winning and this whole cycle happens again.

From my experience, the cycle takes from half a year to a year to complete. Nothing is wrong with fw rewards. They are all fixed by our lovely law of supply and demand and semi perfect market economy.
Only the roleplayers should complain. Roll

tl;dr 5k losing side lp, after enough time, will be worth more than 50k winning side lp. Players will switch sides after one market is oversaturated. Therefore your idea is bad.
Boozbaz
Securitech Industries
#10 - 2017-02-16 11:24:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Boozbaz
Well the answer is pretty obvious to that problem. Those members work their way up to T5 rewards. And that hypothetical question is ... well extremely hypothetical. Most corps grow slower then that, and while they are growing, their members are doing FW stuff and gaining ranks, and pushing up the tiers. By the time you get to 100 members, each new person you recruit will have a negligible impact on your corps tier/reputation. The only issue that I can see, (that's a real potential to be an issue) is if you recruit people and they don't actually participate in plexing. If your corp grows to 100 members and only 3 of those members were actually out plexing, then those three members would be better off not in that corp - because they'll be held back at T1 rewards by the other 97 players who did not participate in plexing.
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#11 - 2017-02-16 11:30:28 UTC
didn't give much thought on this but i can see this tied up with personal standings/rank. corp standing will function the same as now.

then, personal standings will reset only when you join a different faction, no reset on leaving.

Just Add Water
Boozbaz
Securitech Industries
#12 - 2017-02-16 11:35:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Boozbaz
Tzun Solette wrote:
I's a bad idea cause you don't really understand how the LP system works.

Let me explain it to you on a simple example.

After a couple of months of war, Amarr won and is at tier 4, Minmatar is at tier 1.

Amarr pilotes gets on avg 50k lp per offensive plex and Minmatar pilotes gets on avg 20k per offensive plex. A bit less for defensive plexing. Plex takes on avg 20 minutes including running and combat time. Therefore, 150k/hour for Amarr and 60k/hour for Minmatar.

Also smarter Amarr pilotes gets crazy amount for doing l4 fw missions.
Also a lot of Minmatar players switch sides and join Amarr militia on their alts.
There are less and less systems to conquer. More people are doing l4 missions. It's a boring farmfiesta.
However assuming that there is constant and equal demand for items from each faction's fw lp store and Anarr fw items supply is growing and growin and growing, while Minmatar fw items supply is droping, the reward for both sides are different.
Amarr started at 1k ISK for lp, now they are at 500 ISK/lp, while Minmatar guys are getting 2000 ISK/lp. The longer Amarr is winning like that, the lower their ISK/lp ratio is and the higher Minmatar's ratio is.
Therefore majority of Amarr players either quits fw for some time and do some other stuff or switch sides and join Minmatar, and then Minmatar starts winning and this whole cycle happens again.

From my experience, the cycle takes from half a year to a year to complete. Nothing is wrong with fw rewards. They are all fixed by our lovely law of supply and demand and semi perfect market economy.
Only the roleplayers should complain. Roll

tl;dr 5k losing side lp, after enough time, will be worth more than 50k winning side lp. Players will switch sides after one market is oversaturated. Therefore your idea is bad.


You just explained to me how the LP market works, but you didn't actually point out a problem with my idea. You simply said it was bad, and your reasoning was because according you to, I don't understand how the current LP system works. That's a weak argument. A better argument would be to point out what the negative consequences would be if my idea was implemented. So the question is, what would you have to lose if my idea was implemented?

You said RPers should be the only ones complaining. Then you put a Roll emoticon, which is kind of offensive to roleplayers. Guess what, this is an MMORPG. You know that RPG stands for role playing right? For some people, playing a role is fun. It sounds to me like you just don't think there's a problem with the way the current system is. I could be wrong here, but I'm assuming that's because your version of fun is different than mine. And there's nothing wrong with that. But don't come in here and tell me my idea is bad, without actually proving that it's bad. You've proved nothing, and all you've succeeded at doing is explaining how the current system works, under the assumption that I didn't already know how it works. What is actually "bad" about my idea? Again, what do you have to lose if the idea was implemented?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#13 - 2017-02-16 12:11:08 UTC
what he was pointing out in your idea is

A) there is no problem with the current system

B) your system would cause hyper inflation if it was tied to corp or personel standings as everyone began to get max lp

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Boozbaz
Securitech Industries
#14 - 2017-02-16 17:34:33 UTC
Thank you. I apologize if I sounded combative. I think I see where you guys are coming from on this now. While one side is being farmed, their LP/ISK ratio is lower, and while one side is losing, their LP/ISK ratio is higher. So even though your side might be losing, it's compensated (to a certain degree) by the fact that supply of your LP items is lower.