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Jump Fatigue?
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#21 - 2017-02-14 13:46:45 UTC
Zen Dijun wrote:
Ptraci wrote:
Zen Dijun wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
It's there so PL can't jump across the map in 15 minutes and drop on you every time you so much as think about capitals. All industrial ships have a 90% reduction to effective distance traveled anyway.


I get the force projection stuff....but not logistics. Ships should have a travel mode (disable combat capabilities etc...). Either way, it just becomes another irritant for no good reason. I suppose if you run a ton of jump alts, it probably doesn't matter. As for some of us who enjoy logistics and use a single toon, it's just stupid.

Throwing logistics a bone of 90% reduction is better than a poke in the eye, but it's just poorly thought out mechanic and it feels made up for no good reason.

They should work on other methods of countering force projection rather than just a wide brush stroke to everyone using jump ships. I would think CCP was a bit more capable and creative.


And how do you plan on enforcing this without people just using logistics ships to travel back and forth to avoid the jump fatigue timers? There are alliances and organizations rich enough to keep a stock of capital ships on call in pretty much every region. Especially now with Keepstars everywhere.


I thought the issue was with force projection? Having logistics resupply is a good thing for keeping the battle going. To your point though, things like cyno disruptors (causes jump ships to end up in random systems)... Just a little brainstorming should produce some much better alternatives to jump fatigue which seems like that took no thought at all.



If all you're looking for is a way to move your subcaps, the rorquals have a nice fleet hanger and benefit from the 90% fatigue reduction. Your proposal would make carriers fine for moving ships but not very useful for actually fighting with.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Wolfgang Jannesen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2017-02-14 13:48:32 UTC
'Please let my capitals haul wherever within a literal minute' is not a convincing argument.
Cade Windstalker
#23 - 2017-02-14 14:23:26 UTC
Zen Dijun wrote:
Actually, my point is that jump fatigue is a stupid mechanic for the sake of a mechanic.
Putting a carrier in travel mode (disables combat) should allow me to use it for logistics without using it for combat.
There should be better ways to deal with force projection than some stupid excuse for "Your pilot got dizzy... needs to take a break!".


And if you could do this then we'd be immediately back to the days of someone getting tackle in Delve and a cap fleet from the Drone Lands hitting grid 5 minutes later.

The entire point here is to make it difficult for people to move around and project force.

I'm sorry you don't like it and feel it's unfair, but it's been quite good for the game.
radkid10
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2017-02-14 16:40:35 UTC
I think it's funny how everybody thinks pandemic Legion can afford it should ton of keep Stars they cost as much as 30 Titans and that's without a fit
Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#25 - 2017-02-14 22:40:31 UTC
Zen Dijun wrote:
Been a while since I've played. That jump fatigue seems like another broken mechanic for the sake of a mechanic. Please tell me it's going away for logistics? Please? Transfer the penalties to the combat ships or something, but that is an awful game mechanic.


Thank you very much for bringing this up. Because there hasn't been any discussion about the subject since you have left. But, now you have returned, we can finally debate these issues.
Zen Dijun
Absolute Order XVIII
Absolute Will
#26 - 2017-02-15 01:39:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Zen Dijun
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Zen Dijun wrote:
Actually, my point is that jump fatigue is a stupid mechanic for the sake of a mechanic.
Putting a carrier in travel mode (disables combat) should allow me to use it for logistics without using it for combat.
There should be better ways to deal with force projection than some stupid excuse for "Your pilot got dizzy... needs to take a break!".


And if you could do this then we'd be immediately back to the days of someone getting tackle in Delve and a cap fleet from the Drone Lands hitting grid 5 minutes later.

The entire point here is to make it difficult for people to move around and project force.

I'm sorry you don't like it and feel it's unfair, but it's been quite good for the game.


I might add that since the penalty works against the player, it's not hard to work around by using multiple ALTS. I am sure large alliances simply train multiple alts to take over the jump by passing the ship. Still a nice bit of force projection or did you honestly think they were that stupid? Maybe it's a good way for CCP to up subscriptions? Eh?

;)
Zen Dijun
Absolute Order XVIII
Absolute Will
#27 - 2017-02-15 01:40:25 UTC
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:
Zen Dijun wrote:
Been a while since I've played. That jump fatigue seems like another broken mechanic for the sake of a mechanic. Please tell me it's going away for logistics? Please? Transfer the penalties to the combat ships or something, but that is an awful game mechanic.


Thank you very much for bringing this up. Because there hasn't been any discussion about the subject since you have left. But, now you have returned, we can finally debate these issues.


Don't you have something better to do? Apparently, not.

; )
Cade Windstalker
#28 - 2017-02-15 01:56:47 UTC
Zen Dijun wrote:
I might add that since the penalty works against the player, it's not hard to work around by using multiple ALTS. I am sure large alliances simply train multiple alts to take over the jump by passing the ship. Still a nice bit of force projection or did you honestly think they were that stupid? Maybe it's a good way for CCP to up subscriptions? Eh?

;)


Doesn't happen, and this has been demonstrably proven. The problem with this little theory is that it requires you to have very expensive alts (Super and Cap pilots aren't cheap) scattered within a few jumps of everywhere you might reasonably want to put caps, and it *still* won't let you get them *back* from a jump chain you basically burned out your timer making since the pilots will have to make at least a few jumps to get to the fight and then try to jump all the way back.

So no, this doesn't work any more than the "Oh they can just put caches of ships everywhere" idea works, and for more or less the same reason.

Too expensive to be practical.

Doesn't actually get around the problem as well as you think.

No place to keep them because hostile 0.0 space is not good about housing enemy pilots.
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#29 - 2017-02-15 03:41:04 UTC
Zen Dijun wrote:
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:
Zen Dijun wrote:
Been a while since I've played. That jump fatigue seems like another broken mechanic for the sake of a mechanic. Please tell me it's going away for logistics? Please? Transfer the penalties to the combat ships or something, but that is an awful game mechanic.


Thank you very much for bringing this up. Because there hasn't been any discussion about the subject since you have left. But, now you have returned, we can finally debate these issues.


Don't you have something better to do? Apparently, not.

; )


pot calling kettle black, lel.

just play the damn game and stop crying! Lol

Just Add Water
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#30 - 2017-02-15 15:55:00 UTC
Commander Spurty wrote:
I'd sign up for it [fatigue] being removed if:
- Contents of ship is locked. You can not access it for 5~7 days after last jump.
- Ship and contents explodes if it undocked or attempted to use an offensive / defensive module for 5~7 days after last jump.
- POD pilot is free to leave ship and contents and go do something else for 5~7 days after last jump.

Anything else = you have no idea how this will be abused at all and you have no business suggesting changes.


Repackage then unpack the ship and it's as good as new with no penalty. That's why the penalty was put on the pilots and not the ships.

On the other end, I'd like it if someone would explain to me why you would repackage a cap now. I'm gonna guess it involve storage space in POS...
Zen Dijun
Absolute Order XVIII
Absolute Will
#31 - 2017-02-16 00:26:34 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Zen Dijun wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Zen Dijun wrote:
Been a while since I've played. That jump fatigue seems like another broken mechanic for the sake of a mechanic. Please tell me it's going away for logistics? Please? Transfer the penalties to the combat ships or something, but that is an awful game mechanic.


The penalties are significantly reduced for Jump Freighters and Rorquals, so if you're talking Logistics as in moving things then that's already pretty much factored in. If you're saying you want to move your Carrier from Period Basis to Branch in an hour then... that's the point? That you can't do that anymore?


Actually, my point is that jump fatigue is a stupid mechanic for the sake of a mechanic.
Putting a carrier in travel mode (disables combat) should allow me to use it for logistics without using it for combat.
There should be better ways to deal with force projection than some stupid excuse for "Your pilot got dizzy... needs to take a break!".


I'm not getting it. How much jumping are you doing? All you have to do is wait until your fatigue is below 10 minutes and then jump again. You want to avoid when fatigue become multiplicative...so wait a few minutes between jumps. Unless you are trying to make lots of jumps super quickly it isn't that much of an extra burden.

And no it is not a mechanic for the sake of a mechanic. It was to put an end to power projection.


Back in the day, I jumped LOTS... doing logistics for null sec. Now a days, as little as possible. You used to be able to load a JF and jump from Solitude to Feyth in a matter of minutes with all the cynos in place. Waiting around uselessly for minutes, hours etc... all on account of some dumb timer to expire? How is my traveling with my jump drive force projection in a jump freighter? There are lots of ways to shut down force projection without some stupid excuse of "Your pilot is dizzy from jumping.... "

As for force projection, if I train two cap pilots... can't I just pass the ship between and still accomplish force projection?
Zen Dijun
Absolute Order XVIII
Absolute Will
#32 - 2017-02-16 00:30:28 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Zen Dijun wrote:
I might add that since the penalty works against the player, it's not hard to work around by using multiple ALTS. I am sure large alliances simply train multiple alts to take over the jump by passing the ship. Still a nice bit of force projection or did you honestly think they were that stupid? Maybe it's a good way for CCP to up subscriptions? Eh?

;)


Doesn't happen, and this has been demonstrably proven. The problem with this little theory is that it requires you to have very expensive alts (Super and Cap pilots aren't cheap) scattered within a few jumps of everywhere you might reasonably want to put caps, and it *still* won't let you get them *back* from a jump chain you basically burned out your timer making since the pilots will have to make at least a few jumps to get to the fight and then try to jump all the way back.

So no, this doesn't work any more than the "Oh they can just put caches of ships everywhere" idea works, and for more or less the same reason.

Too expensive to be practical.

Doesn't actually get around the problem as well as you think.

No place to keep them because hostile 0.0 space is not good about housing enemy pilots.


Maybe not on a mass scale... but take small skirmishes where you return to base after a day of hot dropping. You pull up a fresh pilot for the next day etc.... You'd be surprised how easy it is to have a hand full of cap pilots. What they need to do is counter-tactic to jumping (cyno distortion or some ability to cause your ship to complete the jump but show up without any shields or even damaged, chance based of course). Jump fatigue look and feels made up.
Zen Dijun
Absolute Order XVIII
Absolute Will
#33 - 2017-02-16 00:59:37 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Commander Spurty wrote:
I'd sign up for it [fatigue] being removed if:
- Contents of ship is locked. You can not access it for 5~7 days after last jump.
- Ship and contents explodes if it undocked or attempted to use an offensive / defensive module for 5~7 days after last jump.
- POD pilot is free to leave ship and contents and go do something else for 5~7 days after last jump.

Anything else = you have no idea how this will be abused at all and you have no business suggesting changes.


Repackage then unpack the ship and it's as good as new with no penalty. That's why the penalty was put on the pilots and not the ships.

On the other end, I'd like it if someone would explain to me why you would repackage a cap now. I'm gonna guess it involve storage space in POS...


Wouldn't that be easily fixed by not allowing the ship to be sold/repackaged/messed with until the timer dropped? Doesn't sound that difficult ;)
Zen Dijun
Absolute Order XVIII
Absolute Will
#34 - 2017-02-16 01:01:16 UTC
Nat Silverguard wrote:
Zen Dijun wrote:
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:
Zen Dijun wrote:
Been a while since I've played. That jump fatigue seems like another broken mechanic for the sake of a mechanic. Please tell me it's going away for logistics? Please? Transfer the penalties to the combat ships or something, but that is an awful game mechanic.


Thank you very much for bringing this up. Because there hasn't been any discussion about the subject since you have left. But, now you have returned, we can finally debate these issues.


Don't you have something better to do? Apparently, not.

; )


pot calling kettle black, lel.

just play the damn game and stop crying! Lol


Trying to play sir, trying. Hard to do when stupid mechanics mess things up.
Thank you for the advice though to "stop crying" ;)
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