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Brawling Improvement?
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Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#1 - 2017-02-09 15:44:42 UTC
Being scrammed should remove a pilot's eligibility as a valid "Warp To" target.

This kind of change could boost the state of brawling a bit, and possibly create some other interesting tactical options.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2017-02-09 17:30:46 UTC
It also however prevents a rescue team from escalating the engagement

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Cade Windstalker
#3 - 2017-02-09 17:35:09 UTC
Why should this be the case? Why do you feel this improves brawling at all? What's wrong with brawling currently that this fixes?

My immediate thought is "this is a buff to snipers" since you can now mix a long-scram ship or two into your sniping fleet and now tackle trying to burn into you can't be warped to by the close range brawling ships that can't shoot back effectively from range.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#4 - 2017-02-09 17:44:56 UTC
why?

learn to manage your range better and kill your target before you go beyond 150km

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#5 - 2017-02-10 02:27:20 UTC
Straight
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:

This kind of change could boost the state of brawling a bit, and possibly create some other interesting tactical options.


Care to fill us in on these improvements and new tactics?

This seems more like a stealth buff to solo that should never happen.


EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2017-02-10 02:29:26 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Why should this be the case? Why do you feel this improves brawling at all? What's wrong with brawling currently that this fixes?

My immediate thought is "this is a buff to snipers" since you can now mix a long-scram ship or two into your sniping fleet and now tackle trying to burn into you can't be warped to by the close range brawling ships that can't shoot back effectively from range.

Also sniping ships could be scrambled by their own teammates to make it so they could be warped to by enemies or does it not work like that?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#7 - 2017-02-10 04:05:02 UTC
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Why should this be the case? Why do you feel this improves brawling at all? What's wrong with brawling currently that this fixes?

My immediate thought is "this is a buff to snipers" since you can now mix a long-scram ship or two into your sniping fleet and now tackle trying to burn into you can't be warped to by the close range brawling ships that can't shoot back effectively from range.

Also sniping ships could be scrambled by their own teammates to make it so they could be warped to by enemies or does it not work like that?



i think he is only talking about fleet warps maybe?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#8 - 2017-02-14 22:11:39 UTC
In faction warfare lowsec space, you can fight at facilities colloquially called "plexes" by players. While fighting on "the outside" of these facilities, you can not warp directly to fleet members who are at the site; you instead need to warp to the facility at a certain distance and then burn to help your ally.

If the engagement isn't occurring directly on the acceleration gate this may place some spacing between a defender and oncoming reinforcements. The extreme popularity of brawling in in FW space is directly related to this and the nature of the FW complexes in general.

The idea is to give brawling a similar appeal in other areas of space by giving it the potential to enforce these same types of positional advantages in other areas than lowsec without necessarily using interdiction. It would mean that reinforcing pilots would need to warp to the site to escalate rather than directly to their comrades. Which is a buff to brawling.

Currently EVE moves at an incredibly fast pace, with a wide variety of ships being able to cross significant distances easily; whether that be on or off grid. Kiting is extremely popular because whenever you engage a target, you do not need to be committed to the target in order to engage; which makes the prospect of engaging more palatable in the case that the target is reinforced and escalates. When you are a brawling ship this option is not available to you, and in a game where literally anything can happen at any time. Many people aren't privy to this option.
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#9 - 2017-02-14 22:14:45 UTC
Simply put, the idea is just to simulate the environment of the lowsec FW complex somewhere not in a lowsec FW complex.
Amojin
Doomheim
#10 - 2017-02-14 23:20:31 UTC
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
Being scrammed should remove a pilot's eligibility as a valid "Warp To" target.

This kind of change could boost the state of brawling a bit, and possibly create some other interesting tactical options.


So, you want to artificially constrain the most vulnerable target you have, to receiving no help?

Hmm... Let's see - someone is being flagged as the main enemy, the **** we hate more than anyone else. Yes, I know, stop me from warping to him and helping.
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#11 - 2017-02-14 23:25:44 UTC
No, that isn't the case at all. You can still warp to him, but you would need to coordinate where he is relative to you, in order for you to land as close to him as possible, instead of directly on his position, with no effort or thought at all.
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#12 - 2017-02-14 23:27:01 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
Being scrammed should remove a pilot's eligibility as a valid "Warp To" target.

This kind of change could boost the state of brawling a bit, and possibly create some other interesting tactical options.


So, you want to artificially constrain the most vulnerable target you have, to receiving no help?

Hmm... Let's see - someone is being flagged as the main enemy, the **** we hate more than anyone else. Yes, I know, stop me from warping to him and helping.


And by what definition is that artificial again?
Amojin
Doomheim
#13 - 2017-02-14 23:31:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Amojin
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
No, that isn't the case at all. You can still warp to him, but you would need to coordinate where he is relative to you, in order for you to land as close to him as possible, instead of directly on his position, with no effort or thought at all.



Why? How does his 'brawling situation' disrupt my navigation? If I can land at zero, wherever I choose, otherwise, why is this situation special. If you don't like what I am doing, and you probably won't, then blow me up, too, if I can't escape, which I always do...

I'm only starting in pvp in any sense on this game, and I SUCK at dps, doing damage. But a remote armor booster? Tossing some ECM drones at someone to get the guy a break? I can do that.

Well, not if I can't warp to him. I have to admit to noobie confusion, here, then. Stop me from warping to him, but 'No, that isn't the case at all...'

Uh?
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#14 - 2017-02-15 00:52:15 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
No, that isn't the case at all. You can still warp to him, but you would need to coordinate where he is relative to you, in order for you to land as close to him as possible, instead of directly on his position, with no effort or thought at all.



Why? How does his 'brawling situation' disrupt my navigation? If I can land at zero, wherever I choose, otherwise, why is this situation special. If you don't like what I am doing, and you probably won't, then blow me up, too, if I can't escape, which I always do...

I'm only starting in pvp in any sense on this game, and I SUCK at dps, doing damage. But a remote armor booster? Tossing some ECM drones at someone to get the guy a break? I can do that.

Well, not if I can't warp to him. I have to admit to noobie confusion, here, then. Stop me from warping to him, but 'No, that isn't the case at all...'

Uh?


You can still warp to the site he is in, whether it be a belt or wherever; at whatever range that you please. It would disallow you from warping directly to "him" on zero exactly, or from using "him" as a range reference point. You are misunderstanding, what you are mentioning is not hindering you at all.
Amojin
Doomheim
#15 - 2017-02-15 00:57:50 UTC
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
No, that isn't the case at all. You can still warp to him, but you would need to coordinate where he is relative to you, in order for you to land as close to him as possible, instead of directly on his position, with no effort or thought at all.



Why? How does his 'brawling situation' disrupt my navigation? If I can land at zero, wherever I choose, otherwise, why is this situation special. If you don't like what I am doing, and you probably won't, then blow me up, too, if I can't escape, which I always do...

I'm only starting in pvp in any sense on this game, and I SUCK at dps, doing damage. But a remote armor booster? Tossing some ECM drones at someone to get the guy a break? I can do that.

Well, not if I can't warp to him. I have to admit to noobie confusion, here, then. Stop me from warping to him, but 'No, that isn't the case at all...'

Uh?


You can still warp to the site he is in, whether it be a belt or wherever; at whatever range that you please. It would disallow you from warping directly to "him" on zero exactly, or from using "him" as a range reference point. You are misunderstanding, what you are mentioning is not hindering you at all.



Ok. That's not unexpected.

You said 'Being scrammed should remove a pilot's eligibility as a valid "Warp To" target.'

If I can still Warp to him and use logistics and ECM, then what are you stopping, exactly?
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#16 - 2017-02-15 01:05:43 UTC
Warping directly to him and blobbing whoever he is fighting.
Amojin
Doomheim
#17 - 2017-02-15 01:09:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Amojin
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
Warping directly to him and blobbing whoever he is fighting.


Ok, I get it. You are going to make me 'warp to' something similar like a mission beacon, then? Where I'm within about 50k?

If that is what you mean, I can see how it would let you win, maybe. Because I'm going to burn towards him fast, and my drone control range seems to never be less than 57k, even without mods...

All you're going to do, is beat the hell out of someone, solo, who was solo, really, to begin with, right? If he has help, they seem to still be able to get there in time, and if he never did, your concern is nothing, and he's still dead, because you just outclass him, right?
Cade Windstalker
#18 - 2017-02-15 02:36:27 UTC
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
In faction warfare lowsec space, you can fight at facilities colloquially called "plexes" by players. While fighting on "the outside" of these facilities, you can not warp directly to fleet members who are at the site; you instead need to warp to the facility at a certain distance and then burn to help your ally.

If the engagement isn't occurring directly on the acceleration gate this may place some spacing between a defender and oncoming reinforcements. The extreme popularity of brawling in in FW space is directly related to this and the nature of the FW complexes in general.

The idea is to give brawling a similar appeal in other areas of space by giving it the potential to enforce these same types of positional advantages in other areas than lowsec without necessarily using interdiction. It would mean that reinforcing pilots would need to warp to the site to escalate rather than directly to their comrades. Which is a buff to brawling.

Currently EVE moves at an incredibly fast pace, with a wide variety of ships being able to cross significant distances easily; whether that be on or off grid. Kiting is extremely popular because whenever you engage a target, you do not need to be committed to the target in order to engage; which makes the prospect of engaging more palatable in the case that the target is reinforced and escalates. When you are a brawling ship this option is not available to you, and in a game where literally anything can happen at any time. Many people aren't privy to this option.


Your logic here is missing a few pieces here...

For a start the only reason this works well in Faction Warfare is because of the other conditions the sites are under. You have a static objective that you need to take and you have severe ship restrictions on most sites. Both compress the fight naturally and work against sniping or kiting fleet setups, which this would buff massively.

On top of that you seem to be forgetting things like corp bookmarks, probes, and the fact that many many many engagements happen with one side jumping or bridging into the other. On top of that we now have Command Destroyers, which can jump enemies away further helping you dictate range.

Overall this would have almost exactly the opposite effect from what you're looking for compared to today.

If you want to buff brawling then I suggest going out and getting a Command Destroyer and practicing jumping people out 100km where they can't be warped to and most heavy hitting ships will be slow to reach them.
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#19 - 2017-02-15 03:12:30 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
In faction warfare lowsec space, you can fight at facilities colloquially called "plexes" by players. While fighting on "the outside" of these facilities, you can not warp directly to fleet members who are at the site; you instead need to warp to the facility at a certain distance and then burn to help your ally.

If the engagement isn't occurring directly on the acceleration gate this may place some spacing between a defender and oncoming reinforcements. The extreme popularity of brawling in in FW space is directly related to this and the nature of the FW complexes in general.

The idea is to give brawling a similar appeal in other areas of space by giving it the potential to enforce these same types of positional advantages in other areas than lowsec without necessarily using interdiction. It would mean that reinforcing pilots would need to warp to the site to escalate rather than directly to their comrades. Which is a buff to brawling.

Currently EVE moves at an incredibly fast pace, with a wide variety of ships being able to cross significant distances easily; whether that be on or off grid. Kiting is extremely popular because whenever you engage a target, you do not need to be committed to the target in order to engage; which makes the prospect of engaging more palatable in the case that the target is reinforced and escalates. When you are a brawling ship this option is not available to you, and in a game where literally anything can happen at any time. Many people aren't privy to this option.


Your logic here is missing a few pieces here...

For a start the only reason this works well in Faction Warfare is because of the other conditions the sites are under. You have a static objective that you need to take and you have severe ship restrictions on most sites. Both compress the fight naturally and work against sniping or kiting fleet setups, which this would buff massively.

On top of that you seem to be forgetting things like corp bookmarks, probes, and the fact that many many many engagements happen with one side jumping or bridging into the other. On top of that we now have Command Destroyers, which can jump enemies away further helping you dictate range.

Overall this would have almost exactly the opposite effect from what you're looking for compared to today.

If you want to buff brawling then I suggest going out and getting a Command Destroyer and practicing jumping people out 100km where they can't be warped to and most heavy hitting ships will be slow to reach them.


Perhaps you are right about the flaws of the idea, but your solution is not a creative or good one.
Cade Windstalker
#20 - 2017-02-15 03:15:00 UTC
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
Perhaps you are right about the flaws of the idea, but your solution is not a creative or good one.


Doesn't have to be creative, just needs to work, and it does work.

"Creative" is often functional shorthand for over complicated.
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