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Suicide Gankers
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Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#101 - 2017-02-14 14:24:03 UTC
Previous poster.

It's a common theme amongst carebears to not know how things work before crying about them.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
radkid10
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2017-02-14 17:01:05 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Dude... EVE is a dystopia.

As in... everything is "dysfunctional" on some level.


and that's what makes this game great ;3
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#103 - 2017-02-14 17:58:58 UTC
GROUND XERO wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
GROUND XERO wrote:
And as a known criminal the sec forces are waiting you to do it again! So they are just watching! I can see that your point of view "gankers view" is different but this is ok and of course i won´t call you dumb Blink.

So if we for example introduce a police force, who proactively hunt players with negative sec status, would that fix the game for you?


nope because they can just buy tags!


Yeah, and how much does that cost? You make it sound like it is nothing. Seriously tell us the cost to avoid being chased by the faction police.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#104 - 2017-02-14 18:02:44 UTC
GROUND XERO wrote:

No matter what would help to stop ppl doing it again and again that easy would be a good point! And as you said you can´t fix it with sec status!

And for the other question if i have something to proof that this has an impact on new players .... guess there isn´t any real one or you wouldn´t have offered to stop!

But if there would be some sort of evaluation why ppl are leaving i´m still thinking ganking, scamming can flipping, stealing mission iteams and all the rude stuff has an impact esp. when it is happening in high!
And the disvalue of other ppl and it is nothing else when ppl are saying others are dumb because they don´t get meachanics right... might an other reason!
But there are too many mights and ifs and stuff like that in my post!

So if you don´t want to see it as a problem you don´t need to! But everytime i´m warping of gate under gate gun fire just to warp back to avoid it and everytime i see these highsec ganking stuff i´m at least thinking it is broken!



Why aren't you pissed at the dummy who puts 7 billion ISK into his cargo and then gets ganked? He took on too much risk.

What would you say to the guy who takes all of his money, all of it. His retirement money, took out a loan on his house. Emptied his bank accounts and goes to Vegas and puts it all on 6 at the roulette table? He is an idiot, right?

Why is it any different when he does basically the same thing in game with a freighter?

You act like there should be no repercussions for being a complete fool.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#105 - 2017-02-14 18:06:26 UTC
Owen Levanth wrote:
Olleg wrote:
As I see EVE is still invaded by Suicide Gankers. Developers do nothing because this is not conflict with game mechanic. But, lets look from other side. There are NPC empires. And there are constantly repeated crime. What will do a real empire in this case? It will change law. What can be changed? For instance. If someone blow property of other player in empire space he will lost not only security standing, but also he will owe money to the property owner. And before he return the dept he will wear status "outlaw". This will not give problem in case of engaging by mistake, on one hand, but on other professional suicide gankers will get feeling of real outlaw and civil force will have fair chance to protect honest traders.


That's already in the game, if your security standing drops too much you are an outlaw. It doesn't help. As long as stupid players exist, suicide gankers will be there to take advantage.

The only way to stop is would be to transform EVE Online into a completely different game, which wouldn't be EVE anymore. Let's call this hypothetical game BORE Online and now let's stop thinking about this.


What this guy says!

I have been beating this drum for ages.

Freighter ganking exists for two reasons. Both reasons are necessary for freighter ganking.

1. The freighter pilot takes on too much risk.
2. Players take advantage of players in 1 above.

Every person who is anti-suicide ganking of freighters. Every. Last. One. Of. Them. Puts all the blame on the suicide gankers. When if people flew their freighters prudently suicide ganking of freighters would largely disappear.

In other words, the freighter pilot himself has very simple means to make himself safer.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#106 - 2017-02-14 18:07:19 UTC
I want to repeat this for the current crop of Bads™

The freighter pilot himself has very simple means to make himself safer.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
IvanPetrovich Ivanov
Miners commune Red Dawn
#107 - 2017-02-14 18:26:25 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:

If you think there's something wrong with that, you're not playing the right game.

Eve gives players the freedom so they can shoot you for whatever reason they want. They can wardec you for whatever reason they like. Steal if they want. Scam if they want. Waste as many catalysts on you as they want.

Players come to eve because there is no where else you can get this freedom.


It is not a question of gameplay freedom, it is a question of game balance. Freedom to 1 button destroyer riders = no freedom to miners. I think that ganker's life is too simple. F1 - Alt-Tab-"loot all"-15 minutes in station - F1 - ... May be gate guards should shoot them? (In case killright is activated with this option) May be they would had to infiltrate in system through WH, but Concord would react longer? Simple gameplay is worse than sofisticated one, isn't it? Especially when you harm to other players. "Criminals" that have no restrictions are boring and senseless. Paper tigers that are allowed to be "criminals".
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#108 - 2017-02-14 18:28:38 UTC
GROUND XERO wrote:


nice judgment! I don´t carebear at all :-)!!!


Carebear is a mindset, and you sir are a carebear.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#109 - 2017-02-14 18:32:40 UTC
IvanPetrovich Ivanov wrote:


It is not a question of gameplay freedom, it is a question of game balance. Freedom to 1 button destroyer riders = no freedom to miners. I think that ganker's life is too simple. F1 - Alt-Tab-"loot all"-15 minutes in station - F1 - ... May be gate guards should shoot them? (In case killright is activated with this option) May be they would had to infiltrate in system through WH, but Concord would react longer? Simple gameplay is worse than sofisticated one, isn't it? Especially when you harm to other players. "Criminals" that have no restrictions are boring and senseless. Paper tigers that are allowed to be "criminals".


I'm -8, so I'm not even as low as most of the big scawy gankers you people are crying about.

Faction police chase me wherever I go in highsec. Other players are free to engage me at any time. If I fly something that can't get off gate bloody quickly, I will absolutely 100% die there.

If I were to go ganking, I would be in an organised fleet with ~a dozen other players, who have things like scouts, co-ordination, ship caches, an FC and need to know what they are doing if they want to nuke a freighter and make a profit.

Why should one player who is either AFK, or deliberately chose to fit their ship badly and overload it's cargobay be able to ignore the efforts of twelve or more who have put the effort in?

Similarly, why should a miner who can't be bothered to fit a tank or pay attention be immune to a ship fit specifically to kill people who can't be bothered to tank or pay attention?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#110 - 2017-02-14 18:35:41 UTC
GROUND XERO wrote:

And for the evaluation they just checked killstats... first 15 days!
So if you would ask ppl who are leaving after a short time.... i´m still thinking all the "rude" stuff together have an impact! And this ganking stuff is a part of it!


No! You are wrong.

Here I’ll run through it for you:

1. CCP grabs 80,000 accounts.
2. CCP tries to weed out alt accounts somehow.
3. CCP then looks for people killed in their first 15 days.
4. CCP then categorizes players in the following manner:
5. Killed illegal in their first 15 days—i.e. suicide ganked.
6. Killed legally in their first 15 days—e.g. killed in a war dec.
7. Not killed at all in their first 15 days.
8. Then CCP looked at how long people played the game.
9. Those killed illegally played the longest.
10. Those killed legally played slight less long.
11. Those not killed at all left the game the soonest.
12. Conclusion: suicide ganking of new players is not a retention problem, in fact it is a retention enhancer.
There you go, the presentation in 12 steps.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Black Pedro
Mine.
#111 - 2017-02-14 18:36:55 UTC
IvanPetrovich Ivanov wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:

If you think there's something wrong with that, you're not playing the right game.

Eve gives players the freedom so they can shoot you for whatever reason they want. They can wardec you for whatever reason they like. Steal if they want. Scam if they want. Waste as many catalysts on you as they want.

Players come to eve because there is no where else you can get this freedom.


It is not a question of gameplay freedom, it is a question of game balance. Freedom to 1 button destroyer riders = no freedom to miners. I think that ganker's life is too simple. F1 - Alt-Tab-"loot all"-15 minutes in station - F1 - ... May be gate guards should shoot them? (In case killright is activated with this option) May be they would had to infiltrate in system through WH, but Concord would react longer? Simple gameplay is worse than sofisticated one, isn't it? Especially when you harm to other players. "Criminals" that have no restrictions are boring and senseless. Paper tigers that are allowed to be "criminals".

Criminals have pretty much all the restrictions already. A career criminal is permanently chased by NPC police which prevents them from doing anything in highsec but constantly moving around in a quick-aligning ship and shoot another player for 20s or so before being inevitably exploded. They are also free to shoot to any player who thus beats them by simply landing a point. Anyone who claims outlaws have no restrictions has never played the game as a criminal.

That said, I once thought that more complex interactions with CONCORD would be a good thing and create more uncertainty for both the criminal and the victim and make a more interesting game. Now though, I think the whole DPS race mechanic is irredeemable. There is no point in spending any time on it. If development time exists, I would rather CCP toss the whole thing out and try again to make a criminal-victim-vigilante system that supports real player interaction and provides for the possibility of escalation.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#112 - 2017-02-14 18:39:03 UTC
IvanPetrovich Ivanov wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:

If you think there's something wrong with that, you're not playing the right game.

Eve gives players the freedom so they can shoot you for whatever reason they want. They can wardec you for whatever reason they like. Steal if they want. Scam if they want. Waste as many catalysts on you as they want.

Players come to eve because there is no where else you can get this freedom.


It is not a question of gameplay freedom, it is a question of game balance. Freedom to 1 button destroyer riders = no freedom to miners. I think that ganker's life is too simple. F1 - Alt-Tab-"loot all"-15 minutes in station - F1 - ... May be gate guards should shoot them? (In case killright is activated with this option) May be they would had to infiltrate in system through WH, but Concord would react longer? Simple gameplay is worse than sofisticated one, isn't it? Especially when you harm to other players. "Criminals" that have no restrictions are boring and senseless. Paper tigers that are allowed to be "criminals".


Several of these things have actually been implemented. CONCORD response times have been increased. CONCORD has been made invincible (my understanding was early on, yes CONCORD could be destroyed). Evading CONCORD is a bannable offense. Guess what…ganking is still here and bad players like you are still whining and the number of players logging in is declining.

Good job.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#113 - 2017-02-14 18:41:48 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
IvanPetrovich Ivanov wrote:


It is not a question of gameplay freedom, it is a question of game balance. Freedom to 1 button destroyer riders = no freedom to miners. I think that ganker's life is too simple. F1 - Alt-Tab-"loot all"-15 minutes in station - F1 - ... May be gate guards should shoot them? (In case killright is activated with this option) May be they would had to infiltrate in system through WH, but Concord would react longer? Simple gameplay is worse than sofisticated one, isn't it? Especially when you harm to other players. "Criminals" that have no restrictions are boring and senseless. Paper tigers that are allowed to be "criminals".


I'm -8, so I'm not even as low as most of the big scawy gankers you people are crying about.

Faction police chase me wherever I go in highsec. Other players are free to engage me at any time. If I fly something that can't get off gate bloody quickly, I will absolutely 100% die there.

If I were to go ganking, I would be in an organised fleet with ~a dozen other players, who have things like scouts, co-ordination, ship caches, an FC and need to know what they are doing if they want to nuke a freighter and make a profit.

Why should one player who is either AFK, or deliberately chose to fit their ship badly and overload it's cargobay be able to ignore the efforts of twelve or more who have put the effort in?

Similarly, why should a miner who can't be bothered to fit a tank or pay attention be immune to a ship fit specifically to kill people who can't be bothered to tank or pay attention?


This! Here we see a group of players from a dozen to 40 or even 50, who have done all of the above…yet they are to be foiled by some guy not even at his keyboard? Sorry, that is just nonsense and you don’t understand the core nature of the game.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#114 - 2017-02-14 19:49:25 UTC
IvanPetrovich Ivanov wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:

If you think there's something wrong with that, you're not playing the right game.

Eve gives players the freedom so they can shoot you for whatever reason they want. They can wardec you for whatever reason they like. Steal if they want. Scam if they want. Waste as many catalysts on you as they want.

Players come to eve because there is no where else you can get this freedom.


It is not a question of gameplay freedom, it is a question of game balance. Freedom to 1 button destroyer riders = no freedom to miners. I think that ganker's life is too simple. F1 - Alt-Tab-"loot all"-15 minutes in station - F1 - ... May be gate guards should shoot them? (In case killright is activated with this option) May be they would had to infiltrate in system through WH, but Concord would react longer? Simple gameplay is worse than sofisticated one, isn't it? Especially when you harm to other players. "Criminals" that have no restrictions are boring and senseless. Paper tigers that are allowed to be "criminals".


You do realize you can shoot the gankers right? You can counter their player action with your won player action?

This is of course forgetting all the other options not involving shooting them.

I'm pretty sure I made a short list earlier in this very thread.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#115 - 2017-02-14 19:52:51 UTC
IvanPetrovich Ivanov wrote:


It is not a question of gameplay freedom, it is a question of game balance. Freedom to 1 button destroyer riders = no freedom to miners. I think that ganker's life is too simple. F1 - Alt-Tab-"loot all"-15 minutes in station - F1 - ... May be gate guards should shoot them? (In case killright is activated with this option) May be they would had to infiltrate in system through WH, but Concord would react longer? Simple gameplay is worse than sofisticated one, isn't it? Especially when you harm to other players. "Criminals" that have no restrictions are boring and senseless. Paper tigers that are allowed to be "criminals".



You have no grasp of what balance is.


- It takes a decent size group of characters dedicated to ganking (they can do little else) and hours of effort to gank freighters (i like how you completely ignore all the logistic work involved. Very dishonest of you) and when they do they roll the dice as to whether they get paid or even succeed.

- It takes one guy with a couple webs to make a freighter ungankable.



For every thousand freighter trips, there are two failures. These failures may not even be from ganks. You say ganking is easy, but you could never pull it off. Where as everyone who isn't a complete dumb ass can save their freighter.

You are either completely ignorant, or hideously dishonest.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#116 - 2017-02-14 19:58:45 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
IvanPetrovich Ivanov wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:

If you think there's something wrong with that, you're not playing the right game.

Eve gives players the freedom so they can shoot you for whatever reason they want. They can wardec you for whatever reason they like. Steal if they want. Scam if they want. Waste as many catalysts on you as they want.

Players come to eve because there is no where else you can get this freedom.


It is not a question of gameplay freedom, it is a question of game balance. Freedom to 1 button destroyer riders = no freedom to miners. I think that ganker's life is too simple. F1 - Alt-Tab-"loot all"-15 minutes in station - F1 - ... May be gate guards should shoot them? (In case killright is activated with this option) May be they would had to infiltrate in system through WH, but Concord would react longer? Simple gameplay is worse than sofisticated one, isn't it? Especially when you harm to other players. "Criminals" that have no restrictions are boring and senseless. Paper tigers that are allowed to be "criminals".


You do realize you can shoot the gankers right? You can counter their player action with your won player action?

This is of course forgetting all the other options not involving shooting them.

I'm pretty sure I made a short list earlier in this very thread.


Most ganking is done for profit. That profit comes from over-filling one's freighter. Not over-filling one's freighter means you are unlikely to get ganked. The act of over-filling your frieghter is basically taking on too much risk. Complaining about having too much risk when it is something based on your own actions is just pure stupidity.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
IvanPetrovich Ivanov
Miners commune Red Dawn
#117 - 2017-02-14 20:56:03 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


You do realize you can shoot the gankers right? You can counter their player action with your won player action?

This is of course forgetting all the other options not involving shooting them.

I'm pretty sure I made a short list earlier in this very thread.


Answer is no.
Problem is that you can not shoot the ganker. It is not possible in the game. I really should explain why? Gank-alts, low possibility to find him, low chance to catch before he warps, e.t.c.. Yes, I tried. I could shoot only pods of AFK alts. And scanners at the gates few times. How I can catch a ganker if I am luck to find him? He doesn't use autopilot. It is a one-way street. May be I am not smart enough? Can you show me your kills of code or other gankers?

2-nd answer is also no.
There are options to minimize your losses and maximize their. But as they gank for trollling, but not for gameplay reasons, it doesn't work:

- I had insurance and lost only 6 mils. You and your friend lost 20 mils. Why?
- Ha ha I don't care about isks. Suffer you carebear!

May be cost of t2 Catalyst is too small?

It is like teamkilling in other games. It has no sense, but some sort of players enjoy it very much because it hurts people. Non-gameplay motivation, to troll.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#118 - 2017-02-14 23:34:07 UTC
During a gank you and your friends have 20 seconds to kill (or jam) as many catalysts as you can. You don't have to kill them all. Just enough to leave the freighter with one ore more hp. Or you can just web a freighter into warp with one friend and never be ganked again.

And you can't find them? Even though the vast majority of freighter ganks happen in maybe 4 systems? Have you even tried?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Amojin
Doomheim
#119 - 2017-02-14 23:56:24 UTC
Olleg wrote:
As I see EVE is still invaded by Suicide Gankers. Developers do nothing because this is not conflict with game mechanic. But, lets look from other side. There are NPC empires. And there are constantly repeated crime. What will do a real empire in this case? It will change law. What can be changed? For instance. If someone blow property of other player in empire space he will lost not only security standing, but also he will owe money to the property owner. And before he return the dept he will wear status "outlaw". This will not give problem in case of engaging by mistake, on one hand, but on other professional suicide gankers will get feeling of real outlaw and civil force will have fair chance to protect honest traders.



This is not the room with hot cocoa and the little train set. Gankers are little asshats, yes. But they DO operate on a system of economics. If you are not WORTH blowing up, they won't. And, in English, Petronius said, the world desires to be deceived. Therefore, LET it be deceived. Sun Tzu? All warfare is based on deception.

If you can, and you can, delay the realization, that 'hey, this stupid **** is not just part of the background,' you can win, in an engagement that is not TOO expansive...
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#120 - 2017-02-15 00:05:22 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
During a gank you and your friends have 20 seconds to kill (or jam) as many catalysts as you can. You don't have to kill them all. Just enough to leave the freighter with one ore more hp. Or you can just web a freighter into warp with one friend and never be ganked again.

And you can't find them? Even though the vast majority of freighter ganks happen in maybe 4 systems? Have you even tried?


He is talking about miner ganking. If you are in anything other than a procuror or skiff you are in trouble. Why he isn't in a procuror IDK.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online