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Jump Fatigue?
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Zen Dijun
Absolute Order XVIII
Absolute Will
#1 - 2017-02-12 23:26:02 UTC
Been a while since I've played. That jump fatigue seems like another broken mechanic for the sake of a mechanic. Please tell me it's going away for logistics? Please? Transfer the penalties to the combat ships or something, but that is an awful game mechanic.
Dark Lord Trump
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#2 - 2017-02-12 23:37:48 UTC
It's there so PL can't jump across the map in 15 minutes and drop on you every time you so much as think about capitals. All industrial ships have a 90% reduction to effective distance traveled anyway.

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!
Zen Dijun
Absolute Order XVIII
Absolute Will
#3 - 2017-02-12 23:43:42 UTC
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
It's there so PL can't jump across the map in 15 minutes and drop on you every time you so much as think about capitals. All industrial ships have a 90% reduction to effective distance traveled anyway.


I get the force projection stuff....but not logistics. Ships should have a travel mode (disable combat capabilities etc...). Either way, it just becomes another irritant for no good reason. I suppose if you run a ton of jump alts, it probably doesn't matter. As for some of us who enjoy logistics and use a single toon, it's just stupid.

Throwing logistics a bone of 90% reduction is better than a poke in the eye, but it's just poorly thought out mechanic and it feels made up for no good reason.

They should work on other methods of countering force projection rather than just a wide brush stroke to everyone using jump ships. I would think CCP was a bit more capable and creative.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#4 - 2017-02-12 23:59:17 UTC
Jump Freighters, Bowheads and industrials receive a 90% reduction in the effects of jump fatigue. You can jump about every 15 minutes with no fatigue.

Of course, Bowheads can't jump on their own and need a bridge, however if you want to use a Carrier to move fitted ships, the better approach is to make a courier contract with them and take them in a Jump Freighter, or the best approach being to repackage, sacrifice the rigs, courier them in a jump freighter and then refit at the destination.

CCP adjusted their original jump fatigue plans when it was introduced in 2014, specifically so it didn't hurt logistics too much.
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#5 - 2017-02-13 00:19:20 UTC
Zen Dijun wrote:
Throwing logistics a bone of 90% reduction is better than a poke in the eye, but it's just poorly thought out mechanic and it feels made up for no good reason.


It was introduced for very good reasons. Previously, you could move a supercapital fleet across the galaxy as fast as you could get the cyno chain in place. This was A Bad Thing(tm) for any number of valid reasons. Jump Fatigue is an annoying mechanic, but then, so is having a supercap blob dopped on top of you every time you undocked a capital.

FYI: Black Ops battleships get a fatigue reduction, as do cloaky ships using a BLOPS bridge.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#6 - 2017-02-13 00:26:03 UTC
Zen Dijun wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
It's there so PL can't jump across the map in 15 minutes and drop on you every time you so much as think about capitals. All industrial ships have a 90% reduction to effective distance traveled anyway.


I get the force projection stuff....but not logistics. Ships should have a travel mode (disable combat capabilities etc...). Either way, it just becomes another irritant for no good reason. I suppose if you run a ton of jump alts, it probably doesn't matter. As for some of us who enjoy logistics and use a single toon, it's just stupid.

Throwing logistics a bone of 90% reduction is better than a poke in the eye, but it's just poorly thought out mechanic and it feels made up for no good reason.

They should work on other methods of countering force projection rather than just a wide brush stroke to everyone using jump ships. I would think CCP was a bit more capable and creative.


And how do you plan on enforcing this without people just using logistics ships to travel back and forth to avoid the jump fatigue timers? There are alliances and organizations rich enough to keep a stock of capital ships on call in pretty much every region. Especially now with Keepstars everywhere.
Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2017-02-13 00:27:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausend
Yeah, it took me pretty much the whole sunday last week to move an old and rusty carrier home. That's two characters not making ISK or doing something fun for a day. In hindsight, it would have probably been better to just firesell it, fighters and all and afk rat on those two characters instead. Jump fatigue, although I understand why it has been implemented is just tedious. One of those hastily implemented hotfixes for problems they could have seen coming for years.


Ptraci wrote:
And how do you plan on enforcing this without people just using logistics ships to travel back and forth to avoid the jump fatigue timers? There are alliances and organizations rich enough to keep a stock of capital ships on call in pretty much every region. Especially now with Keepstars everywhere.

If they have a stock of caps in the destination area anyway, they can just fly over there in quick aligning, warp speed rigged interceptors. That doesn't take much longer than a pre-Phoebe cap move op either.
Zen Dijun
Absolute Order XVIII
Absolute Will
#8 - 2017-02-13 02:18:32 UTC
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Zen Dijun wrote:
Throwing logistics a bone of 90% reduction is better than a poke in the eye, but it's just poorly thought out mechanic and it feels made up for no good reason.


It was introduced for very good reasons. Previously, you could move a supercapital fleet across the galaxy as fast as you could get the cyno chain in place. This was A Bad Thing(tm) for any number of valid reasons. Jump Fatigue is an annoying mechanic, but then, so is having a supercap blob dopped on top of you every time you undocked a capital.

FYI: Black Ops battleships get a fatigue reduction, as do cloaky ships using a BLOPS bridge.



Totally good with some kind of jump attrition for combat... just leave the logistics alone... it's already painful, plentifully painful, enough.
Zen Dijun
Absolute Order XVIII
Absolute Will
#9 - 2017-02-13 02:20:33 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
Yeah, it took me pretty much the whole sunday last week to move an old and rusty carrier home. That's two characters not making ISK or doing something fun for a day. In hindsight, it would have probably been better to just firesell it, fighters and all and afk rat on those two characters instead. Jump fatigue, although I understand why it has been implemented is just tedious. One of those hastily implemented hotfixes for problems they could have seen coming for years.


Ptraci wrote:
And how do you plan on enforcing this without people just using logistics ships to travel back and forth to avoid the jump fatigue timers? There are alliances and organizations rich enough to keep a stock of capital ships on call in pretty much every region. Especially now with Keepstars everywhere.

If they have a stock of caps in the destination area anyway, they can just fly over there in quick aligning, warp speed rigged interceptors. That doesn't take much longer than a pre-Phoebe cap move op either.


Absolutely agree... hasty, stupid fix. They should figure out ways to deal with combat force projection through tactics like cyno disruption rather than some puerile mechanic.

Jump "Fatigue" just needs to be scrapped and more creative solutions need to come forth.
Zen Dijun
Absolute Order XVIII
Absolute Will
#10 - 2017-02-13 02:24:38 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
Zen Dijun wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
It's there so PL can't jump across the map in 15 minutes and drop on you every time you so much as think about capitals. All industrial ships have a 90% reduction to effective distance traveled anyway.


I get the force projection stuff....but not logistics. Ships should have a travel mode (disable combat capabilities etc...). Either way, it just becomes another irritant for no good reason. I suppose if you run a ton of jump alts, it probably doesn't matter. As for some of us who enjoy logistics and use a single toon, it's just stupid.

Throwing logistics a bone of 90% reduction is better than a poke in the eye, but it's just poorly thought out mechanic and it feels made up for no good reason.

They should work on other methods of countering force projection rather than just a wide brush stroke to everyone using jump ships. I would think CCP was a bit more capable and creative.


And how do you plan on enforcing this without people just using logistics ships to travel back and forth to avoid the jump fatigue timers? There are alliances and organizations rich enough to keep a stock of capital ships on call in pretty much every region. Especially now with Keepstars everywhere.


I thought the issue was with force projection? Having logistics resupply is a good thing for keeping the battle going. To your point though, things like cyno disruptors (causes jump ships to end up in random systems)... Just a little brainstorming should produce some much better alternatives to jump fatigue which seems like that took no thought at all.
Cade Windstalker
#11 - 2017-02-13 03:04:55 UTC
Zen Dijun wrote:
Been a while since I've played. That jump fatigue seems like another broken mechanic for the sake of a mechanic. Please tell me it's going away for logistics? Please? Transfer the penalties to the combat ships or something, but that is an awful game mechanic.


The penalties are significantly reduced for Jump Freighters and Rorquals, so if you're talking Logistics as in moving things then that's already pretty much factored in. If you're saying you want to move your Carrier from Period Basis to Branch in an hour then... that's the point? That you can't do that anymore?
Zen Dijun
Absolute Order XVIII
Absolute Will
#12 - 2017-02-14 00:47:22 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Zen Dijun wrote:
Been a while since I've played. That jump fatigue seems like another broken mechanic for the sake of a mechanic. Please tell me it's going away for logistics? Please? Transfer the penalties to the combat ships or something, but that is an awful game mechanic.


The penalties are significantly reduced for Jump Freighters and Rorquals, so if you're talking Logistics as in moving things then that's already pretty much factored in. If you're saying you want to move your Carrier from Period Basis to Branch in an hour then... that's the point? That you can't do that anymore?


Actually, my point is that jump fatigue is a stupid mechanic for the sake of a mechanic.
Putting a carrier in travel mode (disables combat) should allow me to use it for logistics without using it for combat.
There should be better ways to deal with force projection than some stupid excuse for "Your pilot got dizzy... needs to take a break!".
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2017-02-14 01:17:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Zen Dijun wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Zen Dijun wrote:
Been a while since I've played. That jump fatigue seems like another broken mechanic for the sake of a mechanic. Please tell me it's going away for logistics? Please? Transfer the penalties to the combat ships or something, but that is an awful game mechanic.


The penalties are significantly reduced for Jump Freighters and Rorquals, so if you're talking Logistics as in moving things then that's already pretty much factored in. If you're saying you want to move your Carrier from Period Basis to Branch in an hour then... that's the point? That you can't do that anymore?


Actually, my point is that jump fatigue is a stupid mechanic for the sake of a mechanic.
Putting a carrier in travel mode (disables combat) should allow me to use it for logistics without using it for combat.
There should be better ways to deal with force projection than some stupid excuse for "Your pilot got dizzy... needs to take a break!".


I'm not getting it. How much jumping are you doing? All you have to do is wait until your fatigue is below 10 minutes and then jump again. You want to avoid when fatigue become multiplicative...so wait a few minutes between jumps. Unless you are trying to make lots of jumps super quickly it isn't that much of an extra burden.

And no it is not a mechanic for the sake of a mechanic. It was to put an end to power projection.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Sir BloodArgon Aulmais
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2017-02-14 03:43:39 UTC
Zen Dijun wrote:

Actually, my point is that jump fatigue is a stupid mechanic for the sake of a mechanic.
Putting a carrier in travel mode (disables combat) should allow me to use it for logistics without using it for combat.
There should be better ways to deal with force projection than some stupid excuse for "Your pilot got dizzy... needs to take a break!".


You keep saying disables combat. How do you plan to do that? How does the carrier turn back to combat mode? And what stops people abusing the hell out of that? How do you use them for combat effectively? Theres no reason to jump in a ship to a battle that cant fight.

You want an easy-pass to capital ownership. What you want for your own convenience, got abused to hell and like many people stated, is what led to mass-supercaps.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#15 - 2017-02-14 04:06:13 UTC
Zen Dijun wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Zen Dijun wrote:
Been a while since I've played. That jump fatigue seems like another broken mechanic for the sake of a mechanic. Please tell me it's going away for logistics? Please? Transfer the penalties to the combat ships or something, but that is an awful game mechanic.


The penalties are significantly reduced for Jump Freighters and Rorquals, so if you're talking Logistics as in moving things then that's already pretty much factored in. If you're saying you want to move your Carrier from Period Basis to Branch in an hour then... that's the point? That you can't do that anymore?


Actually, my point is that jump fatigue is a stupid mechanic for the sake of a mechanic.
Putting a carrier in travel mode (disables combat) should allow me to use it for logistics without using it for combat.
There should be better ways to deal with force projection than some stupid excuse for "Your pilot got dizzy... needs to take a break!".


Disable combat for how long? What exactly is disabled? How does it come back to normal? Is the ship affected or the character? Someone proved caps unlimited moves were kinda broken when they made the equivalent of a 99 system jump trip in 7 minutes using a carrier. To compare to other things, the same trip in a super taxi inty with warp speed implants to be sure it was as fast as possible took ~55 minutes. If you don't think that was broken, there is no way you will ever understand why jump fatigue was implemented.
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#16 - 2017-02-14 04:26:37 UTC
OP took a break and came back an EvE expert, bravo!

Just Add Water
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#17 - 2017-02-14 04:28:25 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
There are alliances and organizations rich enough to keep a stock of capital ships on call in pretty much every region. Especially now with Keepstars everywhere.


Setting up a Dreadbomb cache is one thing. Financing multiple caches of supercaps is something else entirely.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Atomic Virulent
Embargo.
#18 - 2017-02-14 05:44:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Atomic Virulent
Whew! We've been waiting for your input on this... OK GUYS, let's revert back to before 'Phoebe'...

No, kid... The 'broken mechanic' was the ability to bring a fleet of hundreds of Titans, Super Carriers and Not-So-Super Carriers across the entirety of New Eden (ie. Cobalt Edge to Period Basis) in under 10 minutes to hotdrop a single ratting carrier just because.
Commander Spurty
#19 - 2017-02-14 12:39:25 UTC
I'd sign up for it [fatigue] being removed if:
- Contents of ship is locked. You can not access it for 5~7 days after last jump.
- Ship and contents explodes if it undocked or attempted to use an offensive / defensive module for 5~7 days after last jump.
- POD pilot is free to leave ship and contents and go do something else for 5~7 days after last jump.

Anything else = you have no idea how this will be abused at all and you have no business suggesting changes.

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#20 - 2017-02-14 13:41:05 UTC
Zen Dijun wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
It's there so PL can't jump across the map in 15 minutes and drop on you every time you so much as think about capitals. All industrial ships have a 90% reduction to effective distance traveled anyway.


I get the force projection stuff....but not logistics. Ships should have a travel mode (disable combat capabilities etc...). Either way, it just becomes another irritant for no good reason. I suppose if you run a ton of jump alts, it probably doesn't matter. As for some of us who enjoy logistics and use a single toon, it's just stupid.

Throwing logistics a bone of 90% reduction is better than a poke in the eye, but it's just poorly thought out mechanic and it feels made up for no good reason.

They should work on other methods of countering force projection rather than just a wide brush stroke to everyone using jump ships. I would think CCP was a bit more capable and creative.



Force projection IS logistics.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
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