These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Large Hybrids: Target Painter or Third Tracking Computer?

Author
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1 - 2017-02-12 17:07:31 UTC
I was just curious why other players' experience has been with large hybrid weapons (specifically rails, but also blasters). Is a target painter more or less effective than a third tracking computer (tracking-speed scripted)?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2017-02-12 17:37:18 UTC
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Turret_damage#Hit_chance_formula

there you go Blink

at first sight i would say that a single target painter is better than a third tracking computer.
you need to consider the stacking penalties of the third one against the 0 penalty of the single target painter.
play with numbers and you'll know the answer
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3 - 2017-02-12 18:02:40 UTC
Appreciated, thanks. Looks like I have my reading cut out for me...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#4 - 2017-02-12 19:08:26 UTC
With Blasters, you'll want a web over either choice you listed.

And I've never done the math, but my gut says a TP is a better choice than a third module with stacking penalties.
Rails would indicate that your target is at some range, probably a range where a third TC isn't a huge help.

Also, a Target Painter expands the target so that your whole fleet gets the bonus.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#5 - 2017-02-12 23:52:38 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
With Blasters, you'll want a web over either choice you listed.

And I've never done the math, but my gut says a TP is a better choice than a third module with stacking penalties.
Rails would indicate that your target is at some range, probably a range where a third TC isn't a huge help.

Also, a Target Painter expands the target so that your whole fleet gets the bonus.

It's mainly for PvE, and I've found I basically need 2 webs to shoot orbiting frigates or drones - which kind of messes with my existing setup. A sensor booster to lock them before they can close range is actually more effective (at least in PvE).

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#6 - 2017-02-13 14:14:02 UTC
If you can't track 'em, you only need moar range.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#7 - 2017-02-13 14:18:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
elitatwo wrote:
If you can't track 'em, you only need moar range.

I added a pair of T2 Tracking Enhancers instead along with the pair of range-scripted T2 Tracking Computers. With the +8% tracking speed booster that gives me a +27% boost to tracking speed plus a token amount of range. The scan-scripted T2 Sensor Booster is a must-have so you can quickly lock and blap frigates and drones.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#8 - 2017-02-13 22:06:05 UTC
Generally if you a packing large blasters you want a grappler.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#9 - 2017-02-13 22:08:14 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Generally if you a packing large blasters you want a grappler.

Agreed (and a stasis web). I miss the 90% web bonus of the Kronos...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#10 - 2017-02-13 22:38:55 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
If you can't track 'em, you only need moar range.

I added a pair of T2 Tracking Enhancers instead along with the pair of range-scripted T2 Tracking Computers. With the +8% tracking speed booster that gives me a +27% boost to tracking speed plus a token amount of range. The scan-scripted T2 Sensor Booster is a must-have so you can quickly lock and blap frigates and drones.


Agreed on the sensor booster. Now what ship are we talking about?

The Naga is a nice long range railgun platform. The Rokh has some mobility issues.

I didn't like the Megathron as rail-platform and the Hyperion is probably a better blaster platform.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#11 - 2017-02-13 23:13:11 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Agreed on the sensor booster. Now what ship are we talking about?
The Naga is a nice long range railgun platform. The Rokh has some mobility issues.
I didn't like the Megathron as rail-platform and the Hyperion is probably a better blaster platform.

Sorry, was referring to my Kronos.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#12 - 2017-02-16 13:12:11 UTC
So if you're in a rail BS and a frigate is approaching - which is better (painter or tracking computer).

1. Frigate is 90km and burning in w/ a mwd - painter
2. Frigate is 20km and burning in w/ an AB - tracking computer


The answer is it depends on a couple of things.

Ship type coming at you (inty mwd bonus for example)
Prop mod being used
Range


If you're just shooting npcs - who cares
If you're solo pvp - blasters/grappler
If you're long distance solo rail sniping - Probably doesn't matter much either way
If you're in a gang - painter (you're helping everyone shooting the guy, so net effect - painter)

Just some thoughts. It's a complex game. There are sooo many variables every time you undock. Best is relative at best Big smile
Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2017-02-16 13:47:50 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
So if you're in a rail BS and a frigate is approaching - which is better (painter or tracking computer).

1. Frigate is 90km and burning in w/ a mwd - painter
2. Frigate is 20km and burning in w/ an AB - tracking computer


The answer is it depends on a couple of things.

Ship type coming at you (inty mwd bonus for example)
Prop mod being used
Range


If you're just shooting npcs - who cares
If you're solo pvp - blasters/grappler
If you're long distance solo rail sniping - Probably doesn't matter much either way
If you're in a gang - painter (you're helping everyone shooting the guy, so net effect - painter)

Just some thoughts. It's a complex game. There are sooo many variables every time you undock. Best is relative at best Big smile


you forgot to mention that if the frigate is "approaching" you.... then you need nothing to one shot it Cool
FC what is transversal?
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#14 - 2017-02-16 14:19:12 UTC
From what I've been able to figure out a pair of tracking enhancers seems to work best.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Gregorius Goldstein
Queens of the Drone Age
#15 - 2017-02-20 12:15:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregorius Goldstein
Don't forget that web/grappler/target painter will help your Drones too and a tracking computer/enhancer won't.

(While running the Gala event I noticed that web/target painter increases the damage of my 5 T2 Warriors to elite frigates quite a lot.)
Patrice Macmahon
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2017-02-20 15:04:08 UTC
The solution for rail guns is neither web nor tracking computer, It's your MWD.

With Two tracking scripted TC's and Javelin ammo you are able to blap frigs from the 25km-100km range. There are only two major pockets off the top of my head that are -difficult- due to the warp in location - Stop the Thief (Pocket 2 Doesn't agro unless you fly into their aggression zones easy peasy to burn off), and Worlds collide, Sansha Base (This one the only real solution is to get lucky and pray they bounce off station, or cycle drones on them)

If a Mission frig gets too close, MWD and burn away, your 1000 m/s speed will get them to trail behind you at around 13-15km which will let you two shot them each in turn. As soon as the frigs are down, drop bastion and blap everything on grid. Same thing works for blaster. It's the trailing behind you that lets you pop em, and you can bring a different module. The MWD also cuts down on gate transversal. I usually run 3 mag stabs and an inertia stabilizer to make gate transversals and align times a lot easier (and getting that fat boat up to speed to trail frigs).


The thing that lets you blap all the frigs on grid first with rails is that you aren't having to close range to agro multiple pockets at once, and you have the option to fight further back. Safer IMOP.

 "Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki." 

The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
Mean Coalition
#17 - 2017-02-20 20:42:25 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
A painter will be always more effective then a 3. TC since it is not affected by stacking penalty of the TCs and provides a bigger benefit in case of total tracking improvements then a TC would. However cycle time makes it tricky to line it up properly with hybrids(in comparison to like Tachs or CMs where it works without any issue by the higher cycle time).

I for myself never used one on turret ships for L4 missions since you can migrate nearly all the issues of time wasted on frigs by better positioning with a mwd on grid. However they are incredible on mixed weapon platforms as a Fleetphoon or a Rattlesnake because they work for all weapon systems.

For pure static shooting like in VG Incursions 1 TC, 2 RF painters(full fleet boosts + max skills) and 1 Web was the most effective mix on a 4 med slot hull without the web bonus(I missed my old pala, nearly every time I flown it after the changes) like my Pala.
While a 2. web is more effective that only comes into play once the targets are nearly fully affected by the slow down(takes time) while 2 painters help to apply damage in practice quicker and smother to small targets since you do not have to wait for the full slow down effect of the web and even 2 glancing hits to kill it are better then one hit after 3-4 cycles when the two webs full slowed it down.

However it is far more draining to use in the long run, what might or might not be a reason why it is not used more often outside of missile specific hulls.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#18 - 2017-02-20 21:16:11 UTC
The Djego wrote:
A painter will be always more effective then a 3. TC since it is not affected by stacking penalty of the TCs and provides a bigger benefit in case of total tracking improvements then a TC would. However cycle time makes it tricky to line it up properly with hybrids(in comparison to like Tachs or CMs where it works without any issue by the higher cycle time).

I for myself never used one on turret ships for L4 missions since you can migrate nearly all the issues of time wasted on frigs by better positioning with a mwd on grid. However they are incredible on mixed weapon platforms as a Fleetphoon or a Rattlesnake because they work for all weapon systems.

For pure static shooting like in VG Incursions 1 TC, 2 RF painters(full fleet boosts + max skills) and 1 Web was the most effective mix on a 4 med slot hull without the web bonus(I missed my old pala, nearly every time I flown it after the changes) like my Pala.
While a 2. web is more effective that only comes into play once the targets are nearly fully affected by the slow down(takes time) while 2 painters help to apply damage in practice quicker and smother to small targets since you do not have to wait for the full slow down effect of the web and even 2 glancing hits to kill it are better then one hit after 3-4 cycles when the two webs full slowed it down.

However it is far more draining to use in the long run, what might or might not be a reason why it is not used more often outside of missile specific hulls.

I guess it really depends on how much medium slot real estate you have to work with.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
Mean Coalition
#19 - 2017-02-20 22:08:45 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
True.

It also kind of depends on how often you run into issues with a frig for example.

This is a few years old and I think Sentry got some nerfs since then but I guess it kind of illustrates it well enught:

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1404/TFI_vs_Blockade(Angels).wmv

1 frig kill with light drones, all other killed with turrets and sentry drones out of web range, so it does not really make sense to use a web on the hull. On the Kronos I always used a web with the 90% web bonus since you could use 3 sentry drones that way and it made rails nearly as good as puls lasers in the ability to hit everything between 5 to 100km for good damage, what is very nice for most pve applications.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread