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Crime & Punishment

 
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Incursions: CCP is too slow - now we will act

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Sin Istersly
Meat Locker
#541 - 2012-01-20 23:50:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Sin Istersly
Lysaeus wrote:
Sin Istersly wrote:
I've actually seen one of those self entitled brats mouth off to the wrong person and get his head blown off. It was quite horrific while at the same time frighteningly satisfying.


So you find the deaths of others satisfying?


Do you find the meaning inbetween 'frighteningly' and the end of the sentence without reading the whole thing? Or do you just like to cut and paste others words to make them mean what you want? I said it was horrific, try reading it again, this time slowly, you might actually understand it this time.
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#542 - 2012-01-20 23:57:43 UTC
I find the deaths of others satisfying

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny
Hoxothul
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#543 - 2012-01-20 23:58:27 UTC
Sin Istersly wrote:
Lysaeus wrote:
Sin Istersly wrote:
I've actually seen one of those self entitled brats mouth off to the wrong person and get his head blown off. It was quite horrific while at the same time frighteningly satisfying.


So you find the deaths of others satisfying?


Do find the meaning inbetween 'frighteningly' and the end of the sentence without reading the whole thing? Or do you just like to cut and paste others words to make them mean what you want? I said it was horrific, try reading it again, this time slowly, you might actually understand it this time.



So much back peddling!
Findail
Quid Plorus
#544 - 2012-01-21 00:07:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Findail
Andy Kusoni wrote:



Moon minerals and wormhole loot aren't raw isk. They are used in producing modules and ships that are generally beneficial and fun to use for the entire eve playerbase.

Raw isk is PvE content that gives you a bounty payout, not an item payout. We dislike PvE that does not provide a service other than direct isk reward.

IMO, there shouldn't be very few bounties at all in this game. Income from PvE should be in the form of things that drop and can be sold (eg: salvage, modules, ammo, BPCs).


So, things that would be beneficial changes:

1. Remove bounties (bit rough on new players though. Player base will most likely decline)
2. Moon mining depletes ore (mimics actual mining operations. Only moons are exempt from this basic rule)
3. w-space balancing - maybe have npc motherships randomly spawn and attack player owned pos's, forcing the players to either defend or lose all assets stored there.
4. Buff exploration sites with random chance of t3 items, or only spawn certain items in those sites

I'm sure there's a lot more that could be done, but whining because hisec players form up to run incursions is ludicrous.
Especially when you look at the antics of some alliances in the past e.g. http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=626
Sin Istersly
Meat Locker
#545 - 2012-01-21 00:11:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Sin Istersly
Hoxothul wrote:
Sin Istersly wrote:
Lysaeus wrote:
Sin Istersly wrote:
I've actually seen one of those self entitled brats mouth off to the wrong person and get his head blown off. It was quite horrific while at the same time frighteningly satisfying.


So you find the deaths of others satisfying?


Do find the meaning inbetween 'frighteningly' and the end of the sentence without reading the whole thing? Or do you just like to cut and paste others words to make them mean what you want? I said it was horrific, try reading it again, this time slowly, you might actually understand it this time.



So much back peddling!


Backpeddling would imply I took back something I said. I didnt change a damn thing. Do you guys even speak English (Fixed) or is it a second language to you? Once again, try reading it over, more slowly, maybe even google the big words you dont understand.
Hoxothul
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#546 - 2012-01-21 00:13:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Hoxothul
Findail wrote:
So, things that would be beneficial changes:

1. Remove bounties (bit rough on new players though. Player base will most likely decline)
2. Moon mining depletes ore (mimics actual mining operations. Only moons are exempt from this basic rule)
3. w-space balancing - maybe have npc motherships randomly spawn and attack player owned pos's, forcing the players to either defend or lose all assets stored there.
4. Buff exploration sites with random chance of t3 items, or only spawn certain items in those sites

I'm sure there's a lot more that could be done, but whining because hisec players form up to run incursions is ludicrous.
Especially when you look at the antics of some alliances in the past e.g. http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=626





Wow, you are completely and utterly missing the point, impressive!
Poloturion
Genco Pura Olive Oil Company.
#547 - 2012-01-21 00:54:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Poloturion
Findail wrote:

So, things that would be beneficial changes:

1. Remove bounties (bit rough on new players though. Player base will most likely decline)
2. Moon mining depletes ore (mimics actual mining operations. Only moons are exempt from this basic rule)
3. w-space balancing - maybe have npc motherships randomly spawn and attack player owned pos's, forcing the players to either defend or lose all assets stored there.
4. Buff exploration sites with random chance of t3 items, or only spawn certain items in those sites

I'm sure there's a lot more that could be done, but whining because hisec players form up to run incursions is ludicrous.
Especially when you look at the antics of some alliances in the past e.g. http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=626


The only item you mention even close to being related to what was said was the removal of bounties, which I agree is likely a bad idea and it seems fairly well balanced between the different areas of space.

The other changes you mentioned are not means of getting isk directly and unrelated to what is being discussed. Moon goo needs to be reacted into other things and moved somewhere to be worth anything (I think, never mined a moon before). Anything you get in wspace needs to be protected until you can safely build t3 components with it and/or can get it to known space to sell. You already can get special stuff in exploration sites like invention items.

Also, who is whining that people form up for incursions? That people form up and learn fleet tactics is great! That they get liquid isk directly as their primary payment is not. Mission runners have salvage and items as a large portion of their reward and miners have to build stuff with what they get and both play the market game to be paid. The recommendation for moving more of the payment from incursions to LP brings incursions in line with these other forms of PvE while providing a possible service to the rest of the community beyond being a source of tears.

Finally, I fail to see how your link is relevant. That discussed an issue with an exploit, whereas the issue here is a broken mechanic.

Also, please fix POS.
Crazy Jakk
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#548 - 2012-01-21 01:29:23 UTC
Sin Istersly wrote:
Hoxothul wrote:
Sin Istersly wrote:
Lysaeus wrote:
Sin Istersly wrote:
I've actually seen one of those self entitled brats mouth off to the wrong person and get his head blown off. It was quite horrific while at the same time frighteningly satisfying.


So you find the deaths of others satisfying?


Do find the meaning inbetween 'frighteningly' and the end of the sentence without reading the whole thing? Or do you just like to cut and paste others words to make them mean what you want? I said it was horrific, try reading it again, this time slowly, you might actually understand it this time.



So much back peddling!


Backpeddling would imply I took back something I said. I didnt change a damn thing. Do you guys even speak enligsh or is it a second language to you? Once again, try reading it over, more slowly, maybe even google the big words you dont understand.


My favorite bit was when he said "enligsh". You know Enligsh is meant to have a capital letter, right?
Lysaeus
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#549 - 2012-01-21 01:49:07 UTC
Yeah, I'm having enough fun with him saying he beats kids and enjoys when people die to bother myself with something so petty as a spelling mistake. I like to think I'm not that much of a pedant.
Findail
Quid Plorus
#550 - 2012-01-21 01:52:10 UTC
Poloturion wrote:


The only item you mention even close to being related to what was said was the removal of bounties, which I agree is likely a bad idea and it seems fairly well balanced between the different areas of space.

The other changes you mentioned are not means of getting isk directly and unrelated to what is being discussed. Moon goo needs to be reacted into other things and moved somewhere to be worth anything (I think, never mined a moon before). Anything you get in wspace needs to be protected until you can safely build t3 components with it and/or can get it to known space to sell. You already can get special stuff in exploration sites like invention items.

Also, who is whining that people form up for incursions? That people form up and learn fleet tactics is great! That they get liquid isk directly as their primary payment is not. Mission runners have salvage and items as a large portion of their reward and miners have to build stuff with what they get and both play the market game to be paid. The recommendation for moving more of the payment from incursions to LP brings incursions in line with these other forms of PvE while providing a possible service to the rest of the community beyond being a source of tears.

Finally, I fail to see how your link is relevant. That discussed an issue with an exploit, whereas the issue here is a broken mechanic.


The point is that you're whining about what you perceive as a "broken mechanic" when it doesn't appear to be, then you defend the unbalanced nature of moon mining or wormholes as being ok.

So it's very much a case of wanting stuff that doesn't directly affect you nerfed, while leaving your own income source alone, even though it could be balanced out a lot better than it currently is. Sounds like the hisec mission rewards whine all over again.

Pretty funny really, considering the t3 market has exploded because of incursion runners. They sure buy a LOT of t3 ships. So what you're really saying is that you want the income of wormhole corps drastically reduced.

While I'd agree that it's currently out of proportion to the risk, that move might be too drastic to allow them all to survive.

But if market injection of isk is REALLY what concerns you, what about faction items? They too are "created" items, that don't rely on market mechanics to produce. Same goes for faction blueprints. To switch to a purely player driven market would have quite an impact on the game. It would create new career options for invention, but the whining from 0.0 alliances wanting to faction fit cap ships would be huge. Though having to invent faction items would certainly place industrial characters on a much higher standing in alliances than they currently enjoy.
Findail
Quid Plorus
#551 - 2012-01-21 01:56:47 UTC
Crazy Jakk wrote:

My favorite bit was when he said "enligsh". You know Enligsh is meant to have a capital letter, right?


I don't think "Enligsh" is even a word.

Guess it is now - you just invented it. Wish I could invent a word Lol
KrakizBad
Section 8.
#552 - 2012-01-21 02:00:34 UTC
Ah, the USTZ bears are logging on now and the tears are flowing anew. Twisted
Poloturion
Genco Pura Olive Oil Company.
#553 - 2012-01-21 02:16:45 UTC
Findail wrote:
The point is that you're whining about what you perceive as a "broken mechanic" when it doesn't appear to be, then you defend the unbalanced nature of moon mining or wormholes as being ok.

So it's very much a case of wanting stuff that doesn't directly affect you nerfed, while leaving your own income source alone, even though it could be balanced out a lot better than it currently is. Sounds like the hisec mission rewards whine all over again.

Pretty funny really, considering the t3 market has exploded because of incursion runners. They sure buy a LOT of t3 ships. So what you're really saying is that you want the income of wormhole corps drastically reduced.

While I'd agree that it's currently out of proportion to the risk, that move might be too drastic to allow them all to survive.

But if market injection of isk is REALLY what concerns you, what about faction items? They too are "created" items, that don't rely on market mechanics to produce. Same goes for faction blueprints. To switch to a purely player driven market would have quite an impact on the game. It would create new career options for invention, but the whining from 0.0 alliances wanting to faction fit cap ships would be huge. Though having to invent faction items would certainly place industrial characters on a much higher standing in alliances than they currently enjoy.


You say the mechanic isn't broken, then say things are out of balance compared to risk further on ... Shocked

I don't think isk rewards should be removed entirely from incursions, just swung in the other directions so it is a secondary reward to something creating game-play like LP markets.

You don't get it do you? Faction item drops or BPCs are not isk injections. It still requires the movement of expensive items in potentially risky situations to markets where the player has to then sell the item.

Also, please fix POS.
Endeavour Starfleet
#554 - 2012-01-21 02:47:55 UTC
The BTL leadership decided that they didn't like people pointing out their utter failure to defend incursions and calls for new leadership and is issuing bans.

BTL needs to be replaced. Or it's leadership removed. And I hope these interdiction efforts continue until they are forced to.
Llyona
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#555 - 2012-01-21 03:45:48 UTC
I did some investigation earlier today and I have come to the conclusion that this is a poorly thought out campaign and I will explain why I think this.

Essentially the main gripe seems to be that High sec incursions should not be as lucrative as they are.

Some solutions suggested for CCP to apply to the current incursion system were:

  • Have high sec isk payouts reduced
  • Replace isk payouts with another form of compensation
  • Moving incursions out of high sec entirely


Now, whether you agree with these solutions or not is immaterial, as they are already happening. Essentially the current campaign's goal of having CCP reduce or move incursions has already been accomplished by the actions of the participants themselves.

Shutting down high sec incursion sites once the mothership appears, effectively reduces the amount of isk that can be farmed from a constellation. This is especially true since a new incursion will not take place for up to 24 hours after it's predecessor closes, thus only allowing low/null sec incursions to continue operating.

This only validates the sentiment that the current incursion system is operating as designed and need not be repaired by CCP, since any group of players of sufficient size can effectively end an incursion once the mothership appears.

EVE is an illness, for which there is no cure.
Theodoric Darkwind
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#556 - 2012-01-21 03:45:51 UTC
drdxie wrote:
Tian Nu wrote:
OldMan Gana wrote:
They should move incursions to npc null or at the very least- 0.2 system.

Those of us who live in NPC null run the odd angel mission here and there, have one eye on the mission and a bigger eye on local, and there's folks in hi sec running isk farming machines risk free from any hassle?
Don't think so.


this made me lol if you dont make huge isk in null quit now.


There are incursion in lower sec areas.. no one runs them cause you wouldn't be able to trust your own fleet as you all in it for the easy KM.. LolLolLolLolLol and that's why you messing with the carebears cause finally they have a way to make easy isk like all the null corps... your just jealous... Blink


Some of us do run low/null incursions, and get payouts that the highseccers can only dream ofTwisted. No trust issues when the entire fleet is alliancemates or blues.

nice to see NO ACTIVE HIGHSEC INCURSIONS Pirate
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#557 - 2012-01-21 04:33:32 UTC
Theodoric Darkwind wrote:
drdxie wrote:
Tian Nu wrote:
OldMan Gana wrote:
They should move incursions to npc null or at the very least- 0.2 system.

Those of us who live in NPC null run the odd angel mission here and there, have one eye on the mission and a bigger eye on local, and there's folks in hi sec running isk farming machines risk free from any hassle?
Don't think so.


this made me lol if you dont make huge isk in null quit now.


There are incursion in lower sec areas.. no one runs them cause you wouldn't be able to trust your own fleet as you all in it for the easy KM.. LolLolLolLolLol and that's why you messing with the carebears cause finally they have a way to make easy isk like all the null corps... your just jealous... Blink


Some of us do run low/null incursions, and get payouts that the highseccers can only dream ofTwisted. No trust issues when the entire fleet is alliancemates or blues.

nice to see NO ACTIVE HIGHSEC INCURSIONS Pirate


The bears decided to head out to a 0.0 incursion while we were in the process of shutting them down... apparently they all died horribly Pirate

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny
Keith Planck
Hi-Sec Huggers
#558 - 2012-01-21 05:44:00 UTC
I got a Q train going...

Aoki Katsumoto > [05:39:29] Ortan Murdak > Keith Planck > KingCepheus > Katen Love > Keith Planck > Jeune > Keith Planck > Me of Course > [05:35:37] Keith Planck > fridayx13th > Keith Planck > Jubis Moonjuice > [05:34:42] Keith Planck...

"so i gues the brick squad was serious" <-- original

Curse you CCP and your character limits!!!
You still havn't convinced the incursion leaders though, they've seen this kind of **** go on for several months xD

http://mlfw.info/f/192/ still waiting for that secret plan darius

♞
Daisai
Daisai Investments.
#559 - 2012-01-21 08:46:06 UTC
Krissada wrote:
Before words ----
Yes, it's this thread again. No, it's not just empty words.
This was posted many days ago, but I decided to take it down to have some chats with a few selected people before finalizing everything.


_____________________

We have come to the conclusion that even though blackbird suicide ganking is a profitable and very fun activity it only limits the Incursion Bear activities by some degree.
If we are to end their reign once and for all which has lasted for almost a year it is time we do it now.

We would like to announce the creation of a wonderful and most generous channel named: "Grief the Bears" with the sole purpose of taking down all motherships in highsec as soon as they appear and end the incursion just like CCP intended....
We shall put an end to this inhuman farming and abuse of game mechanics. We have to put a gag to this ISK faucet and shake up those bears.
If they wanna do incursions they can go to lowsec or nullsec. Pirate

What do we require and why do we need you?


  • 30-40 bodies to effectively fight off the site and finish it.
  • Armor buffer fit battleships and a handful subbattleships.
  • T2 logistic ships.
  • Empty tear jars.

So join us at the channel ----> Grief the Bears
and let us finally put an end to all this.

Once all the highsec incursions are down they will not respawn for another 24+ hours. When that one will spawn it will only take the bears 4-5 hours to make the mothership appear and then we shall sweep in yet again and finish it.

Can you imagine highsec where the bears only get to incursion 15-20 hours for a whole week?
I can and it is filled with tears....


PS: Beware that extracting a sufficient amount of tears will result in merc wardecs hired by rich bears. I see this as a side bonus!

_______________


Above is the simple plan. We cannot keep on waiting and whining to CCP. We are taking matters into our own hands with or without you.
If you want to join, feel free to. If you rather not that is fine too.
But if you want to whine and complain because we are stopping the ISK faucet then make sure you are crying into one of our jars.

Fly much reckless Twisted


Gl trying to get people to fly with someone like you.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#560 - 2012-01-21 11:05:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Findail wrote:

But if market injection of isk is REALLY what concerns you, what about faction items? They too are "created" items, that don't rely on market mechanics to produce. Same goes for faction blueprints. To switch to a purely player driven market would have quite an impact on the game. It would create new career options for invention, but the whining from 0.0 alliances wanting to faction fit cap ships would be huge. Though having to invent faction items would certainly place industrial characters on a much higher standing in alliances than they currently enjoy.


For what I recall there were three and only three ISK faucets left:

1) Bounties (missioning + ratting + exploration)
2) NPC buy orders for commodities
3) Insurance

As of now it is more like:

1) Bounties (incursions + missioning + ratting + exploration + anoms)
2) Very few NPC buy orders left
3) Insurance has been nerfed

In the future CCP seems to replace drones mineral drops with more ISK, further augmenting 1)


Everything else, EVERYTHING is an ISK sink.
This includes

- faction modules (LP + ISK get sunk),
- PI (zero ISK created, fees visibly sink ISK)
- mining (zero ISK created, fees at refining (if not optimal) + fees when selling sink ISK)
- moon mining (zero ISK created, fees for upkeeping sov or to pay charters => ISK sink)
- trading (zero ISK created, fees at every transaction sink ISK)

Therefore even the "big money makers" like trading and moon mining don't ruin the EvE economy, because (huge) amounts of ISK only switch hands, they don't get created out of thin air.


Considering how:

- missioning has been nerfed like 3 times in the last years
- ratting income is an o(missioning) and the possible faction / officer drops are not an ISK faucet,
- exploration is mostly blitzed (little ISK faucet)
- anomalies have been nerfed to the point that CCP reconsidered the nerf.

What's left out that could be hit by a nerf?
You guessed it, incursions.

Since CCP has the statistics about hi / low and null sec game features in the form of ISK:EHP they may decide which of them to nerf and how.

The first change that comes to mind is indeed to slow them down and force the end boss to be killed.

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