These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Suicide Gankers

Author
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#21 - 2017-02-08 19:48:02 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Dr'Laaq wrote:
Wolfgang Jannesen wrote:
Surviving a suicide gank is the best way to combat them, if it isn't profitable it isn't worth doing.


I was in a Charon, shitload of HP's but vs 60 a 70 Catalysts and 3 bcs? The ship will go down.


Was the blueprint a copy or a BPO?

You anti-tanked your freighter by using a nanofiber btw.


Goons don't usually gank for ***** and giggles, they do it for profit. My money is one a T2 BPO.


Especially in 1.0 sec systems.

The problem is not how easy it is to kill a freighter but why did OP use a Charon to haul a single blueprint.


Imprudence.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Black Pedro
Mine.
#22 - 2017-02-08 19:48:05 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Quote:
The losses being made on their side , they even MAKE a profit with the insurrance. It's a WIN WIN for them.

Gankers do not get insurance.

They pay the full price of their ship and the modules on it... whether the gank is successful or not.
In fact, even though this gank was successful, the T2 BPO did not drop. That means almost 60 players, a significant number of which were flying Taloses and Stealth Bombers, lost at least a billion ISK worth of ships with nothing to show for it. So much for those claims ganking is risk free?

So OP, take solace in that fact. Even though you made a mistake and were out-played, the loot fairy had your back and stuck it to those nasty pirates who tried to hijack your BPO.

I see no feature or idea here that needs discussion though. Everything is working as intended. Perhaps this thread should be locked then?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#23 - 2017-02-08 19:50:57 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Quote:
The losses being made on their side , they even MAKE a profit with the insurrance. It's a WIN WIN for them.

Gankers do not get insurance.

They pay the full price of their ship and the modules on it... whether the gank is successful or not.
In fact, even though this gank was successful, the T2 BPO did not drop. That means almost 60 players, a significant number of which were flying Taloses and Stealth Bombers, lost at least a billion ISK worth of ships with nothing to show for it. So much for those claims ganking is risk free?


Great point.

Quote:
I see no feature or idea here that needs discussion though. Everything is working as intended. Perhaps this thread should be locked then?


Agreed. Duplicate thread that has been discussed to death.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#24 - 2017-02-08 19:53:34 UTC
It was a BPO.

OP, why do you feel that you, moving solo and taking literally zero precautions of any description, should be immune to the 56 pilots on your mail, let alone the 70 you're claiming? There are people who move freighters through ganking hotspots literally every day and never lose them, because they fly sensibly. You did not fly sensibly, and paid the price.
Starrakatt
Celtic Anarchy
Dead Terrorists
#25 - 2017-02-09 11:18:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Starrakatt
Dr'Laaq wrote:


Thus when i stay in highsec concord garantees my safety.
CONCORD doesn't protect, CONCORD punish.

Quote:
Since recently i lost my freighter, full set of highgrades and my pod ofcourse.. thanks to 60 or 70 t1 destroyers.


Logging off was a bad idea, that's a pod killer. You do realize that setting your ship - any ship - on Autopilot is a risk multiplier.

Well, you paid for your imprudence and/or laziness.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#26 - 2017-02-09 13:41:57 UTC
Quote:
Highsec should be safe,


Nope. The whole point of eve is that everywhere is a pvp zone. Read section 7 of the faq. Or the golden rules of eve. Or the falcon punch.

You are playing a pvp game. Get used to it or gtfo.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#27 - 2017-02-09 14:02:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Dr'Laaq wrote:
Highsec should be safe
It is, when you put some effort in to your game play.

Mechanically highsec is safer than the other types of space in New Eden due to the penalties imposed for unsanctioned aggression there, which are more than adequate at deterring the vast majority of highsec players from instigating it. If you wish to deter those that accept those penalties as a cost then you need to put some effort in, just as they do.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#28 - 2017-02-09 14:36:36 UTC
One of the things that it is important to do when you are a grown up is look at things you don't like, understand WHY you don't like them, and try to develop a more honest view of the situation by forcing yourself to see why others see the same thing as good (or at least ok).

Suicide ganking in EVE is one such thing. Personally, I don't care for the activity, I've participated in exactly one gank fleet with my corp mates and I don't find it to be fun (side note, I feel the same way about "Hot Dropping", sit on a bridging ship, jump when told to jump, hope to get on the killmail after you land and then warp off, not my idea of a good time). The activity does nothing for me so I don't do it..

But, I see that others enjoy it for various reasons.

And I see that it's within the well established rules of the game. AND i see that it has various positive benefits, not the least of which is that it creates a sense of dread (and thus awareness) in the part of EVE space where it's easy to totally zone out (zoning out is bad, it leads to boredom, and boredom is death for a video game). Suicide gankers give some people an Enemy, and those people NEED an enemy to stand against in order to enjoy anything.

And it gives players like me (who don't need an enemy but do like a challenge) something to gives value to our experience. Surviving and evading ganks is the mark of a good player and a pro-PVE jock.

The people like the OP who try to get CCP to change or remove suicide ganking don't really understand the benefits of the thing they want removed. In the same way that the people who whined for years about 'safety' didn't understand that danger was the thing drawing peopel to EVE. Notice how CCP increase the relative amount of safety we can attain in EVE, and how EVE was way more popular before they started doing that.

I suggest people stop thinking emotionally about suicide ganks and gankers and see the bigger picture. Suicide ganking (like hot dropping, awoxxing, scamming and all the rest) is a valuable part of this games Ecosystem, and something that mostly should not be screwed with.
Starrakatt
Celtic Anarchy
Dead Terrorists
#29 - 2017-02-09 15:34:48 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
...AND i see that it has various positive benefits, not the least of which is that it creates a sense of dread (and thus awareness) in the part of EVE space where it's easy to totally zone out (zoning out is bad, it leads to boredom, and boredom is death for a video game). Suicide gankers give some people an Enemy, and those people NEED an enemy to stand against in order to enjoy anything.

And it gives players like me (who don't need an enemy but do like a challenge) something to gives value to our experience. Surviving and evading ganks is the mark of a good player and a pro-PVE jock.
Before I even started playing I actually read about EVE, and about pvp and Hisec ganking.

When I actually started playing, I was actually terrified of ganking and losing my ships/pods, ISKless that I was and every other player ship looked like a threat to me, especially since I didn't actually grasp exactly what was suicide ganking yet.

I adored that feeling of insecurity. And still do.
Siginek
Perun Inc.
#30 - 2017-02-10 11:42:26 UTC
suicide ganking isnt problem ... problem is that suicide gankers are untouchable ... their ships cost is close to none and they are ignored by most npc so they can freely roam trough space ... i dont mind suicide gankers but i think their actiosn shouldnt be free as they are now ... ATM you can **** off many players and it costs you nothing now adn nothing to future becasue you have nothign to lose ... this should change ... gankers shouldnt be allowed into npc stations and their ships should be much more expensive (maybe few sec invulnerability after you get attacked by ganker so he has to build ship that can survive long enough so you get out of your invul timer) ... basically - if you wanna pirate in zone that should be safe for everyone, you should pay for it big price and not be untouchable as it is now
Wolfgang Jannesen
Line Ark Security Service Incorperated
#31 - 2017-02-10 13:16:34 UTC
Dr'Laaq wrote:
Wolfgang Jannesen wrote:
Surviving a suicide gank is the best way to combat them, if it isn't profitable it isn't worth doing.


I was in a Charon, shitload of HP's but vs 60 a 70 Catalysts and 3 bcs? The ship will go down.


A suicide gank like that is already site a huge loss of isk that it's tough to feel bad about, that's a lot of effort to not just set up in lowsec with that many pilots. Are you sure you're not exaggerating by a lot?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#32 - 2017-02-10 13:29:48 UTC
Siginek wrote:
suicide ganking isnt problem ... problem is that suicide gankers are untouchable ... their ships cost is close to none and they are ignored by most npc so they can freely roam trough space ... i dont mind suicide gankers but i think their actiosn shouldnt be free as they are now ... ATM you can **** off many players and it costs you nothing now adn nothing to future becasue you have nothign to lose ... this should change ... gankers shouldnt be allowed into npc stations and their ships should be much more expensive (maybe few sec invulnerability after you get attacked by ganker so he has to build ship that can survive long enough so you get out of your invul timer) ... basically - if you wanna pirate in zone that should be safe for everyone, you should pay for it big price and not be untouchable as it is now


Yes it does carry costs. That you're saying it doesn't shows how full of **** you are. And its already been nerfed to the point that almost no one does it anymore.

Not only the cost of the ship but the cost of sec status and kill rights. A ganking character can do little else than fly around in small ships and do more ganking. If they did try anything else: (mining, mission running or flying an orca in one case), they would be hunted by players and npc's endlessly. And as pointed out in this very thread, every time they gank they are rolling the dice as to whether they even get paid or not.

Read my previous post. High sec is NOT safe nor should it be. HTFU or GTFO.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#33 - 2017-02-10 14:12:14 UTC
Siginek wrote:
suicide ganking isnt problem ... problem is that suicide gankers are untouchable ... their ships cost is close to none and they are ignored by most npc so they can freely roam trough space ... i dont mind suicide gankers but i think their actiosn shouldnt be free as they are now ... ATM you can **** off many players and it costs you nothing now adn nothing to future becasue you have nothign to lose ... this should change ... gankers shouldnt be allowed into npc stations and their ships should be much more expensive (maybe few sec invulnerability after you get attacked by ganker so he has to build ship that can survive long enough so you get out of your invul timer) ... basically - if you wanna pirate in zone that should be safe for everyone, you should pay for it big price and not be untouchable as it is now


There is no need for that. If you want to engage gankers, you already can and killing their ships increase the cost of ganks since they have to account for lost DPS if you manage to burn one or more of them. They can adapt by adding more man power to their gank fleet but so can you in your anti gank fleet. The "problem" is always the same, too few people are actually willing to do the "hard" work of trying something. Catalyst aren't exactly tanky so burning them down is not super hard.

Lugh Crow-Slave
#34 - 2017-02-10 14:38:47 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Siginek wrote:
suicide ganking isnt problem ... problem is that suicide gankers are untouchable ... their ships cost is close to none and they are ignored by most npc so they can freely roam trough space ... i dont mind suicide gankers but i think their actiosn shouldnt be free as they are now ... ATM you can **** off many players and it costs you nothing now adn nothing to future becasue you have nothign to lose ... this should change ... gankers shouldnt be allowed into npc stations and their ships should be much more expensive (maybe few sec invulnerability after you get attacked by ganker so he has to build ship that can survive long enough so you get out of your invul timer) ... basically - if you wanna pirate in zone that should be safe for everyone, you should pay for it big price and not be untouchable as it is now


There is no need for that. If you want to engage gankers, you already can and killing their ships increase the cost of ganks since they have to account for lost DPS if you manage to burn one or more of them. They can adapt by adding more man power to their gank fleet but so can you in your anti gank fleet. The "problem" is always the same, too few people are actually willing to do the "hard" work of trying something. Catalyst aren't exactly tanky so burning them down is not super hard.




Some how ppl think it's unbalanced of they lose 30+ to one
Siginek
Perun Inc.
#35 - 2017-02-10 14:44:25 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Siginek wrote:
suicide ganking isnt problem ... problem is that suicide gankers are untouchable ... their ships cost is close to none and they are ignored by most npc so they can freely roam trough space ... i dont mind suicide gankers but i think their actiosn shouldnt be free as they are now ... ATM you can **** off many players and it costs you nothing now adn nothing to future becasue you have nothign to lose ... this should change ... gankers shouldnt be allowed into npc stations and their ships should be much more expensive (maybe few sec invulnerability after you get attacked by ganker so he has to build ship that can survive long enough so you get out of your invul timer) ... basically - if you wanna pirate in zone that should be safe for everyone, you should pay for it big price and not be untouchable as it is now


There is no need for that. If you want to engage gankers, you already can and killing their ships increase the cost of ganks since they have to account for lost DPS if you manage to burn one or more of them. They can adapt by adding more man power to their gank fleet but so can you in your anti gank fleet. The "problem" is always the same, too few people are actually willing to do the "hard" work of trying something. Catalyst aren't exactly tanky so burning them down is not super hard.




Some how ppl think it's unbalanced of they lose 30+ to one


no, soem ppl think its unbalanced when ganker can kill 50+ with ship that costs oen and you just cant effectively punish him for that even if you had all time for that ... because one gank can feed ganker with another 20+ ships ... and if he sees you want to kill him he can just dock and you cant do anything about it ... gl trying to kill one ganker 50 times to make it worth not to mention how many of them is there
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#36 - 2017-02-10 15:31:35 UTC
Siginek wrote:
suicide ganking isnt problem ... problem is that suicide gankers are untouchable ... their ships cost is close to none and they are ignored by most npc so they can freely roam trough space ... i dont mind suicide gankers but i think their actiosn shouldnt be free as they are now ... ATM you can **** off many players and it costs you nothing now adn nothing to future becasue you have nothign to lose ... this should change ... gankers shouldnt be allowed into npc stations and their ships should be much more expensive (maybe few sec invulnerability after you get attacked by ganker so he has to build ship that can survive long enough so you get out of your invul timer) ... basically - if you wanna pirate in zone that should be safe for everyone, you should pay for it big price and not be untouchable as it is now


My sec status is -8.4 or something. Please explain why it should be much, much harder for me to accomplish anything at all in game than for my alt with +.02

Now, please explain why a player who takes zero precautions and doesn't bother flying sensibly should be immune to twenty prepared players flying ships well suited to what they're trying to do.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#37 - 2017-02-10 16:28:44 UTC
Quote:
no, soem ppl think its unbalanced when ganker can kill 50+ with ship that costs oen and you just cant effectively punish him for that even if you had all time for that ... because one gank can feed ganker with another 20+ ships ... and if he sees you want to kill him he can just dock and you cant do anything about it ... gl trying to kill one ganker 50 times to make it worth not to mention how many of them is there

Yeaaaaaaah.... about that....

That isn't just a High-sec thing... that is a gamewide thing.

If 50 frigates descend on a solo capital ship, then the captial ship is going to die.

If 50 battleships attack a solo Titan, the Titan is going to die.


Bigger or more expensive, it doesn't matter. If you are outnumbered and do not have a plan, you WILL die regardless of whatever ship you are in.


And if you think that, "I can punish people for attacking me outside of high-sec, so that sort of thing is okay" then you need to go out and live outside of high-sec.

More often than not, you need to track down the people who attacked you, find out where they live, what they do, how they do it, if they have any assets, and if you have a reasonable chance of even being able to anything at all.

Your success in getting revenge is not guaranteed.
Avoiding danger is not gauranteed.

Likewise, success for the ganker is not gauranteed.
Being able to get the loot is not gauranteed.
Selling the loot at a reasonable price is not guaranteed.

But the gankers know and understand the mechanics. And they team up with each other to stack the odds in their favor.

Why should any one person be given immunity from dozens of people who know more, plan more, and operate together?


And no... high-sec is NOT MEANT TO BE SAFE.
At all.

Even the DEVs have said this.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#38 - 2017-02-10 17:11:08 UTC
Siginek wrote:
suicide ganking isnt problem ... problem is that suicide gankers are untouchable ... their ships cost is close to none and they are ignored by most npc so they can freely roam trough space ... i dont mind suicide gankers but i think their actiosn shouldnt be free as they are now ... ATM you can **** off many players and it costs you nothing now adn nothing to future becasue you have nothign to lose ... this should change ...


They are fairly easy to catch if you try.
Gank talos costs 85-90 mil a go. Bomber costs 40-45 mil. Not small sums of money when you need a fleet of them.
Most gankers are attacked by gate guns, station guns and faction NPC navies.
Ganking is by far the most punished activity in EVE
Gankers lose their ship every time no matter if they kill the target or not.

Siginek wrote:

gankers shouldnt be allowed into npc stations and their ships should be much more expensive (maybe few sec invulnerability after you get attacked by ganker so he has to build ship that can survive long enough so you get out of your invul timer) ... basically - if you wanna pirate in zone that should be safe for everyone, you should pay for it big price and not be untouchable as it is now


And here is the demand to kill ganking.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#39 - 2017-02-10 20:12:28 UTC
Siginek wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Siginek wrote:
suicide ganking isnt problem ... problem is that suicide gankers are untouchable ... their ships cost is close to none and they are ignored by most npc so they can freely roam trough space ... i dont mind suicide gankers but i think their actiosn shouldnt be free as they are now ... ATM you can **** off many players and it costs you nothing now adn nothing to future becasue you have nothign to lose ... this should change ... gankers shouldnt be allowed into npc stations and their ships should be much more expensive (maybe few sec invulnerability after you get attacked by ganker so he has to build ship that can survive long enough so you get out of your invul timer) ... basically - if you wanna pirate in zone that should be safe for everyone, you should pay for it big price and not be untouchable as it is now


There is no need for that. If you want to engage gankers, you already can and killing their ships increase the cost of ganks since they have to account for lost DPS if you manage to burn one or more of them. They can adapt by adding more man power to their gank fleet but so can you in your anti gank fleet. The "problem" is always the same, too few people are actually willing to do the "hard" work of trying something. Catalyst aren't exactly tanky so burning them down is not super hard.




Some how ppl think it's unbalanced of they lose 30+ to one


no, soem ppl think its unbalanced when ganker can kill 50+ with ship that costs oen and you just cant effectively punish him for that even if you had all time for that ... because one gank can feed ganker with another 20+ ships ... and if he sees you want to kill him he can just dock and you cant do anything about it ... gl trying to kill one ganker 50 times to make it worth not to mention how many of them is there


Each gank in high sec cost at least one ship and often more. You can also prevent gank in many way that have been, in most case, repeated a few hundred time on these very boards. The "problem" come from the people getting ganked who seem to absolutely refuse to even try defending himself in way of similar effort as the gankers go through.

Gankers assemble fleets to do their job while also organizing a "network" of alt to scan ship for potential lucrative marks and bumpers. This, in the grand scheme of things, if replicated by the target, would represent a few logi around you and scouts to spot the bumpers in advance. For every time someone said logi didn't work in gank, there has been 0 person to ever effectively try to equate the manpower/cost of the gank fleet in rep fleet. Nobody ever tried how effective 5 Osprey + 5 Augoror perform against 15 catalyst.

If you don't want to go the rep way, you have the gun way. Instead of fitting 10 logi cruisers to follow your freighter around, go with 5 Oracles and lock any ganker coming. If they are already flashy red from low sec status, shhot away. If they are not, wait for the first shot and then shoot away. At this point look at how many extra Catalyst they need since you surely will burn some down before the freighter die or CONCORD arrive on site and finish the job for you.

If this is all too much effort because you feel you should not need a fleet to counter another fleet (WTF???!?!?!?!), then go the 1 alt options. A single webber will render your freighter extremely hard to catch of you web it into warp.

If this is also too hard, then there is the final way. The money way. This one is often overlooked but I don't really know why. Seem to be an attachment many players have to being proud of doing things themselves. Well, if you allow yourself to walk a bit over your ego, you can pay someone to move your stuff for you. It even come with arrangement to insure your stuff while it is not in your hands in case of theft or piracy preventing it from reaching it's destination. Some people have gotten really good at moving stuff so hiring them for it is an available solution.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#40 - 2017-02-10 20:25:20 UTC
Siginek wrote:
suicide ganking isnt problem ... problem is that suicide gankers are untouchable ... their ships cost is close to none and they are ignored by most npc so they can freely roam trough space ... i dont mind suicide gankers but i think their actiosn shouldnt be free as they are now ... ATM you can **** off many players and it costs you nothing now adn nothing to future becasue you have nothign to lose ... this should change ... gankers shouldnt be allowed into npc stations and their ships should be much more expensive (maybe few sec invulnerability after you get attacked by ganker so he has to build ship that can survive long enough so you get out of your invul timer) ... basically - if you wanna pirate in zone that should be safe for everyone, you should pay for it big price and not be untouchable as it is now


Here is a hint: don't be an imprudent idiot and you'll pretty much never get ganked.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online