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can we please address the issue!?

Author
DHB WildCat
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-01-20 21:56:41 UTC
Hi all, now for a story.

3 of us in alts were out looking for a fight 8). We jump into a low sec system where we find a bellicose, tornado, and arazu just off grid. We three are hurricane / drake / harb. We decide sure we'll go for it, might not get there but what the hey.

We engage the arazu. the tornado runs to range and hits us hard. the bellicose and arazu launch full flights of light ecm drones. Drake perma jammed. Hurricane scrammed at 20k no mwd. harb still fighting strong. Soon 6 more enemy land on us.... meh whatever we knew it was a hard fight from the beginning. Maybe we can take down something with us. So 2 tempests, drake, and few other things land. All launch light ecm drones, my overview flood with them. 30 Ish in total. Roughly ten on us each. All three of us now perma jammed. Literally, Perma jammed but light ECM drones.

I dont mind dieing, I dont mind being ganked if I can fight back and go down swinging. However this rash of ECM needs to be addressed please!

I dont care how it is handled, stacking penalties / strength reduced / speed reduced on drones so they cant catch moving targets........

Whatever the idea I am begging CCP to look into ecm. It is completely ruining the fun of this game. Everything else in game has a counter other than ecm. ECCM does not work.

Thank you,

Wild
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#2 - 2012-01-20 22:05:15 UTC
I think its worth mentioning that all other ewar has counters that happen after the fight starts:
- Against Optimal TDs, you can move closer.
- Against Tracking TDs, you can manipulate transversal in a variety of ways
- Against Neuts, you can cap boost
- Against Damps, you can move closer or simply wait (because you WILL eventually lock)
- Against Scrams and Webs you can just avoid going into range, or alternatively you can fit them yourself for added personal benefits.
- Against ECM? Well, fit ECCM. Or else.

Furthermore, ECM not only gives you a 20 second reprieve from their weaponfire - but also prevents them from tackling you. ECM drones are strong enough that they're going to score a jam in any smallish gang fight - and that jam will either let you outright win the fight or let you run away from an obviously losing fight.

ECM drones have too much utility - even wholly disregarding how broken the ECM mechanic itself is.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Hanoch Wheel
Free Wheeling Industries
#3 - 2012-01-20 22:12:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Hanoch Wheel
Liang Nuren wrote:
I think its worth mentioning that all other ewar has counters that happen after the fight starts:
- Against Optimal TDs, you can move closer.
- Against Tracking TDs, you can manipulate transversal in a variety of ways
- Against Neuts, you can cap boost
- Against Damps, you can move closer or simply wait (because you WILL eventually lock)
- Against Scrams and Webs you can just avoid going into range, or alternatively you can fit them yourself for added personal benefits.
- Against ECM? Well, fit ECCM. Or else.

Furthermore, ECM not only gives you a 20 second reprieve from their weaponfire - but also prevents them from tackling you. ECM drones are strong enough that they're going to score a jam in any smallish gang fight - and that jam will either let you outright win the fight or let you run away from an obviously losing fight.

ECM drones have too much utility - even wholly disregarding how broken the ECM mechanic itself is.

-Liang


Out of curiosity since I've not tried it, how do FOF missiles do in PVP?

I would think they deserve mention as a counter to ECM. We use them to counter ECM rats in PVE.

I can think of some good defenses that players could use, like rotating ranges to spread out the damage, but think they'd still be useful under these circumstances.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#4 - 2012-01-20 22:16:01 UTC
Hanoch Wheel wrote:

Out of curiosity since I've not tried it, how do FOF missiles do in PVP?

I would think they deserve mention as a counter to ECM. We use them to counter ECM rats. I can think of some good defenses that players could use, like rotating ranges to spread out the damage, but think they'd still be useful under these circumstances.


FOF missiles attack the nearest non-friendly item in space. This means that they may attack drones. I'd hesitate to call them a "counter" - because they clearly aren't. And if they were, they're restricted to a very small number of ships. Hell, FOF missiles used to attack people that were RRing you. They may still do it for all I know. -_-

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

vorneus
Hub2
#5 - 2012-01-20 22:31:10 UTC
I have two main issues with ECM, and Liang has more or less touched on both of them.

1.) There is no way to completely counter it, only to reduce the probability of it happening. I can name several occasions where I have been jammed by 5 light ECM drones while in a Domi with 2 ECCMs or 1 ECCM which was overheated; on all such occasions I was mad, bro - and why shouldn't I be? Fitting 2 ECCMS is a considerable fitting sacrifice to make and to be jammed in a BS hull by an unbonused set of light drones is a real kick in the teeth.

2.) The effect of being jammed is greater than that of all other types of EWAR. Not only this, but it's by a considerable margin as well. Neuts can be crippling to some ships, sure, but they still don't prevent you from firing cap-independant weapons at your aggressor(s).

Solutions? Not sure, but reduction in the amount of time spent jammed would be a start, even if it's just scaled so that light drones jam for less time, mediums for longer, large drones for longer still and specific ECM boats for the longest.

Or something.

I dunno.

-Ed

This one time, I like, totally did some stuff.

X Gallentius
Easy Eight
#6 - 2012-01-20 22:44:25 UTC
lol, i like how you can warp back to station, fit up a cap booster and go out and fight a neuting ship, but you can't dock up and fit an eccm to fight an ecm boat. ec-drones are THAT powerful!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#7 - 2012-01-20 22:48:11 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
lol, i like how you can warp back to station, fit up a cap booster and go out and fight a neuting ship, but you can't dock up and fit an eccm to fight an ecm boat. ec-drones are THAT powerful!


A cap booster and a nos both have utility aside from merely countering neuts. ECCM doesn't, Furthermore, ECM prevents far more than neuts ever thought of.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Muad 'dib
The Nine Nine
#8 - 2012-01-20 23:00:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Muad 'dib
drone choice is:

warriors or ecm for 25m3
warriors and ecm for 50 m3
warriors, med ecm for 75m3
hammers warriors and ecm for 100 m3
ogres for 125 m3 (or hammers, med ecm, and warriors)
etc notice a trend here?

never sd, never td, never tp, never wb just warriors and up for damage and light ecm to med for anything with more space.

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.

Reppyk
The Black Shell
#9 - 2012-01-20 23:09:19 UTC
Use a ******* smartbomb.

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !

Cyzlaki
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2012-01-20 23:29:55 UTC
The whole ECM mechanic is a broken pile of sh!t that needs to be removed entirely. Just make ECM like a lockbreaker. Drops lock but let's you re-lock without a stupid timer
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#11 - 2012-01-20 23:30:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Destination SkillQueue
vorneus wrote:
I have two main issues with ECM, and Liang has more or less touched on both of them.

1.) There is no way to completely counter it, only to reduce the probability of it happening. I can name several occasions where I have been jammed by 5 light ECM drones while in a Domi with 2 ECCMs or 1 ECCM which was overheated; on all such occasions I was mad, bro - and why shouldn't I be? Fitting 2 ECCMS is a considerable fitting sacrifice to make and to be jammed in a BS hull by an unbonused set of light drones is a real kick in the teeth.

2.) The effect of being jammed is greater than that of all other types of EWAR. Not only this, but it's by a considerable margin as well. Neuts can be crippling to some ships, sure, but they still don't prevent you from firing cap-independant weapons at your aggressor(s).

Solutions? Not sure, but reduction in the amount of time spent jammed would be a start, even if it's just scaled so that light drones jam for less time, mediums for longer, large drones for longer still and specific ECM boats for the longest.

Or something.

I dunno.

-Ed


Well one simple solution might be to simply alter the effect, so it no longer prevents you from locking targets for the entire duration. One alternative might be to make it so, that it has a chance of making the target lose all target locks with a slight delay before they can start relocking. The chance of the delock effect and/or the duration of the relock block timer could be influenced by relationship of jamming strength vs sensor strenght. You could even make it so, that an ECCM unit outright removes the relock delay.

The main positives of such a change would be that ECM in general becomes much more reliable and predictable, the affected player can hope to do something even when under the effects of ECM and relatively weak jamming strenght becomes a manageable minor annoyance instead of a RNG game changer. It would also provide a mechanism where stacking penalty can be applied to it just like with most other EW and allow ease of tweaking, since using ECM is no longer a all or nothing proposition.
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-01-20 23:49:05 UTC
Cyzlaki wrote:
The whole ECM mechanic is a broken pile of sh!t that needs to be removed entirely. Just make ECM like a lockbreaker. Drops lock but let's you re-lock without a stupid timer

p. much this, although the OP's problem could have been solved by having the cane fit one or two smartbombs and clustering up on it so it could obliterate the drone swarm.
Aamrr
#13 - 2012-01-21 00:22:41 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
lol, i like how you can warp back to station, fit up a cap booster and go out and fight a neuting ship, but you can't dock up and fit an eccm to fight an ecm boat. ec-drones are THAT powerful!


A cap booster and a nos both have utility aside from merely countering neuts. ECCM doesn't, Furthermore, ECM prevents far more than neuts ever thought of.

-Liang


There's also a very considerable difference in the range of that ewar. A medium neut functions at approximately web range. A heavy neut barely reaches out to point range. A Falcon, on the other hand, can jam you out to 66+54km. And that's the short-range version. A blackbird will do it (less effectively but much more cheaply) from 103+77km. That is frankly absurd.

And of course, even ECM drones will function out to your drone control range.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-01-21 01:46:30 UTC
Reppyk wrote:
Use a ******* smartbomb.


I hate ecm drones, and they need to be nerfed, but smartbombs do work.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!

VinroC
HotelCalifornia
#15 - 2012-01-21 02:10:56 UTC
Reppyk wrote:
Use a ******* smartbomb.


not on gates or near stations but aprt from that 2 cycles of a med smart bomb does it
snake03
#16 - 2012-01-21 02:11:41 UTC
Hrett wrote:
[quote=Reppyk]Use a ******* smartbomb.


I hate ecm drones, and they need to be nerfed, but smartbombs do work.[/quote




No nerfbat needed, "adapt overcome improvise."Attention


Clint Eastwood heartbreak ridge

I'm just a modern day caveman in search of a bigger club.

astara989
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-01-21 13:14:57 UTC
Aamrr wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
lol, i like how you can warp back to station, fit up a cap booster and go out and fight a neuting ship, but you can't dock up and fit an eccm to fight an ecm boat. ec-drones are THAT powerful!


A cap booster and a nos both have utility aside from merely countering neuts. ECCM doesn't, Furthermore, ECM prevents far more than neuts ever thought of.

-Liang


There's also a very considerable difference in the range of that ewar. A medium neut functions at approximately web range. A heavy neut barely reaches out to point range. A Falcon, on the other hand, can jam you out to 66+54km. And that's the short-range version. A blackbird will do it (less effectively but much more cheaply) from 103+77km. That is frankly absurd.

And of course, even ECM drones will function out to your drone control range.


Although correct, you are missing the fact that a Falcon/Blackbird pretty much lose all there tank to fit ECM mods wheres fitting a nuet to most ships does not, hence why ECM ships need a long range.
DarkAegix
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2012-01-21 13:23:40 UTC  |  Edited by: DarkAegix
Maelstrom 1 is being
-Neuted
-Tracking disrupted
-Dampened
-Long pointed
-Long webbed
-Target painted
by 3 ewar cruisers (Amarr, Gallente, Minmatar). It can still fire its guns on close targets, point things and command its drones, doing minimal damage.

Maelstrom 2 is being
-ECM jammed
by 1 ewar cruiser (Caldari). It can't do a single thing.


ECM has significant issues.
Vandir Rael
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2012-01-21 13:51:30 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
Maelstrom 1 is being
-Neuted
-Tracking disrupted
-Dampened
-Long pointed
-Log webbed
-Target painted
by 3 ewar cruisers (Amarr, Gallente, Minmatar). It can still fire its guns on close targets, point things and command its drones, doing minimal damage.

Maelstrom 2 is being
-ECM jammed
by 1 ewar cruiser (Caldari). It can't do a single thing.


ECM has significant issues.


A dampened BS against a cruiser won't be able to hit it, unless the cruiser is really stupid.

And when you are ECM jammed you can use your drones, just put them on aggressive Roll
Mysa
EVIL PLANKTON
#20 - 2012-01-21 13:58:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Mysa
Why not change some base stats of ecm drones? they would still be effective but if you decrease range and activation time they would be more a defence option and not as op as ecm ships ecm modules that requiers 3 diffrent skills and force recon skill levels whilst ecm drones require just one.
They would still work but as they are now i dont know why all three drones have the same activation time, it just dont make any sense when every other stat is diffrent..

Ec-300: Activation Proximity 4000m. Accuracy falloff 2500m. Optimal range 2500. Activation time/duration 5.00s Max velocity 3750 m/sec

Ec-600: Activation Proximity 4000m. Accuracy falloff 6500m. Optimal range 6500. Activation time/duration 10.00s. Max velocity 2750 m/sec

Ec-900: Activation Proximity 6000m. Accuracy falloff 9500m. Optimal range 9500. Activation time/duration 20.00s Max velocity 1750 m/sec

Might be an option?
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