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Delaying local in eve in NS/LS
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#21 - 2017-02-06 17:29:54 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
lol


"Remove local it will add pvp"

sure it will maybe increase the number of ratters and miners you kill but it will drastically lower good fights. I can't tell you how many fights we got because we were able to see the name of some one or a group we knew would be up for it.


Elita is correct there is an area of space you can play in if you do not want local. Eve is great that way it gives you many rule sets to play in. we don't need to make all areas the same


that said i would like to see sov null require a structure to gain local with a deploy-able to block it. a good way for that would be if you put it within 30km of a mobile scan inhib it stopped working



WH space has proven over and over that all kinds of fights happen all the time in space that has no local. What removing local from null will do is limit the further encroachment of risk averse players. If you're risk averse - stay in HS/LS - I'll just assume that local is concord controlled, so anywhere they have influence - local exists.

Taking local away from null will have the same impact that warp to zero did. Not much. True story here: If you want to rat in Null w/ local you find a dead end system, bubble the crap out of it and rat in relative peace. If you want to rat in Null w/out local you find a dead end system, bubble the crap out of it, station a scout to watch/listen for gate fire and rat in relative peace. Taking away null just means true bears will have to have an account (if only CCP had made some sort of free disposable account) on the gate for the same effect.

The ONLY farmers that would be adversely affected by taking out local in null would be the afk farmers. I am and will always be OK with that. Alpha gate scout isn't even a big deal at this point. Macros miners would also take a beating because they can't program off of the local chat box, so macro operators would also be upset. Actual for real miners should be pushing the removal of local because they are actively playing the game and the alpha scout thing would be a no brainer for them.

You still have HS incursions if you need 100% risk free farming. Of course incursions aren't afk things, so.... there is that.


NOW is the time to remove local from null. Other than AFK/macro styles of play - farming can easily be secured with an alpha gate scout. NOW is the time!!!!
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#22 - 2017-02-06 17:39:30 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

wut?

if you were locked down to one region or system this would make scene but you're not. like i said finding fights is different.

not only that but the lack of individual areas being low on kills is not do to there being no local but rather do to there being far fewer people

And there being fewer people is because, in large parts, of no local. This circumstance alone is too much to handle for most people, which in turn reduces the population and keeps content and PVP low.




Have you ever tried to live in wh? The population is low because it's hard to live their. Logistics and navigating are not as simple as k-space. You need to learn entire new skill sets and get familiar with using differant tools both in game and out. You seem to be taking rather great leaps in logic with no real reasoning





I love you bunches Lugh, but really? Arguing with this guy? He doesn't get it, doesn't want to get it and never will get it. He's locked into one play style with blinders gorilla glued to his head. You are having a debate with a brick wall (google IQ of a brick for some hahaha results).

He may not be able to get his arms around how many of those low / null km he speaks of are wh player generated. He may not understand the WH folk aggressively seek out pvp in all parts of space. He may only see just one thing.

I enjoy having intelligent discussion and disagreement with you, but I feel no joy in watching you struggle against an immovable object.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#23 - 2017-02-06 18:29:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Serendipity Lost wrote:
NOW is the time to remove local from null. Other than AFK/macro styles of play - farming can easily be secured with an alpha gate scout. NOW is the time!!!!

I enjoy you calling me immovable object ... however ... suggesting to put an alpha player on a gate/several gates all day long just to give intel is a bit of a harsh fate for a player, don't you think? Roll I mean, of course you can have a PC running for omega clients and one for an alpha client, but that's quite a lot of effort and expenditures, isn't it? And having alpha chars and omega chars logged in at the same time on the same computer is not allowed. Or do you really suggest people clumping together in a system and then take gate watching shifts? Would require a complete 180 in how things are done, but you could make it work. And most people probably can't imagine a more fulfilling way to spend my time.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#24 - 2017-02-06 19:51:51 UTC
The lower population of wh space has more to do with the logistical nightmare of living there than local.

That's how these threads happen at all, there are people who want to live without local (because it's kinda broken) but without playing eve on 'ultimate survival mode'.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Cade Windstalker
#25 - 2017-02-06 20:45:29 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
WH space has proven over and over that all kinds of fights happen all the time in space that has no local. What removing local from null will do is limit the further encroachment of risk averse players. If you're risk averse - stay in HS/LS - I'll just assume that local is concord controlled, so anywhere they have influence - local exists.

Taking local away from null will have the same impact that warp to zero did. Not much. True story here: If you want to rat in Null w/ local you find a dead end system, bubble the crap out of it and rat in relative peace. If you want to rat in Null w/out local you find a dead end system, bubble the crap out of it, station a scout to watch/listen for gate fire and rat in relative peace. Taking away null just means true bears will have to have an account (if only CCP had made some sort of free disposable account) on the gate for the same effect.

The ONLY farmers that would be adversely affected by taking out local in null would be the afk farmers. I am and will always be OK with that. Alpha gate scout isn't even a big deal at this point. Macros miners would also take a beating because they can't program off of the local chat box, so macro operators would also be upset. Actual for real miners should be pushing the removal of local because they are actively playing the game and the alpha scout thing would be a no brainer for them.

You still have HS incursions if you need 100% risk free farming. Of course incursions aren't afk things, so.... there is that.


NOW is the time to remove local from null. Other than AFK/macro styles of play - farming can easily be secured with an alpha gate scout. NOW is the time!!!!


Couple of problems with this.

First off, holding up Wormholes as an example. While good fights do happen in wormholes they're not really common by the standards of the rest of Eve, they're more "oh hey, we found someone's home and they appear to be site running, let's go mess them up!" If you want a good fight right now you basically roll your hole until you find a Null connection and go roaming in K-space because that's where most of the people are and where you can actually find a fight. Emphasis on find.

Second issue, equating removing local with removing Warp to Zero. One here, is something that most people out in null already had workarounds for in the form of gate bookmarks. If you weren't out of your own space and therefore probably spoiling for a fight you just warped to your insta-jump BM and called it a day. Local has no equivalent work around here.

Also you can't have an Alpha Clone alt online at the same time as your main without tricking the client, something that's against ToS and bannable, which is not something CCP should be encouraging people to do as a work around for one of their changes.

In fact it's almost like CCP restricted Alpha log-ins for exactly this reason...

So what you've actually done here is restricted low/null activity to people who can afford a second computer or one that's powerful enough to run Eve in a VM.

Do I need to point out why this would be a bad state of affairs or does it just kind of explain itself like I think it does?
Cade Windstalker
#26 - 2017-02-06 20:47:14 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
The lower population of wh space has more to do with the logistical nightmare of living there than local.

That's how these threads happen at all, there are people who want to live without local (because it's kinda broken) but without playing eve on 'ultimate survival mode'.


I mean, there are a ton of reasons WH space is how it is, and a lot of them boil down to "because it's WH space" but that's horribly reductive.

At the end of the day local in WHs is not a good model for what restricting or removing local anywhere else would get us as an environment, there are too many other factors in place that can't be separated from each other.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#27 - 2017-02-07 01:00:17 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
... there are people who want to live without local (because it's kinda broken) ....


It is not broken, keyboards and paranoia made people broken. If used properly you can talk to someone you didn't know before.

Sorry I mentioned it.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Mordachai
Eternal Darkness.
#28 - 2017-02-07 13:08:11 UTC
If you want to play eve without local.... WH space is only a wormhole away...
id sa no to removing local.
Wolfgang Jannesen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2017-02-07 13:24:13 UTC
There isn't a gameplay issue to argue here, just someone who would rather not have people know they've showed up in system.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#30 - 2017-02-07 15:53:44 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
NOW is the time to remove local from null. Other than AFK/macro styles of play - farming can easily be secured with an alpha gate scout. NOW is the time!!!!

I enjoy you calling me immovable object ... however ... suggesting to put an alpha player on a gate/several gates all day long just to give intel is a bit of a harsh fate for a player, don't you think? Roll I mean, of course you can have a PC running for omega clients and one for an alpha client, but that's quite a lot of effort and expenditures, isn't it? And having alpha chars and omega chars logged in at the same time on the same computer is not allowed. Or do you really suggest people clumping together in a system and then take gate watching shifts? Would require a complete 180 in how things are done, but you could make it work. And most people probably can't imagine a more fulfilling way to spend my time.



Yes that's all good stuff. People clumping together and working together - what a great concept. So let's look at the alpha. It's pretty easy to leave your old computer (you know the one you used 2 years ago before you upgraded) as an alpha scout. Does everyone need to do it??? No, just one of the guys. So for 5 different players - 1 guy still having his old computer functional for scout duty isn't exactly a stretch. I'm not asking everyone to go out and purchase and additional computer just for scouting. Be reasonable. There are more than enough spare / old computers scattered across the eve player base that this isn't a death sentence. As far as boring duty - Gates make activation sounds - you can literally be 3 rooms away from your computer and hear someone coming. Implying that someone has to be 100% focused and spamming d-scan is not a logical argument. WH folk have been surviving on a tabbed out wh cloaky scout for years. It ain't difficult.

The guys this wouldn't work for??? The solo MMO player, the macro operator that relies on local, the afk farmer, and maybe the active player running 20 mining accounts. I'm OK with who it wouldn't work for.

This would be a change that would have a lot of folks up in arms initially, but it would quickly fade as folks realize just how easy it is to be accountable for their own farming safety. As the guy stated previously "That's how these threads happen at all, there are people who want to live without local (because it's kinda broken) but without playing eve on 'ultimate survival mode'. " All I'm hearing from you is "Null in general is full of lazy farmers that can't survive without the crutch of local. My null corp and alliance isn't good enough or strong enough to be accountable for our undocked space activities." or "I can't AFK macro without local"

That's all I really hear from you. (OK, sometimes it comes through as "I'm scared", but not usually)
Eye-Luv-Girls wDaddyIssues
Hookers N' Blow
#31 - 2017-02-07 16:03:43 UTC
The delay is a pretty good idea, and agree the guys jumping in get delayed as well.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#32 - 2017-02-07 16:10:43 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
The lower population of wh space has more to do with the logistical nightmare of living there than local.

That's how these threads happen at all, there are people who want to live without local (because it's kinda broken) but without playing eve on 'ultimate survival mode'.


I mean, there are a ton of reasons WH space is how it is, and a lot of them boil down to "because it's WH space" but that's horribly reductive.

At the end of the day local in WHs is not a good model for what restricting or removing local anywhere else would get us as an environment, there are too many other factors in place that can't be separated from each other.



MOST of wh being wh is based on changing connections that are mass and time limited that need to be scanned and scouted to be used.

No local is the gift that makes all that bother and work OK.
Cade Windstalker
#33 - 2017-02-07 18:55:35 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
MOST of wh being wh is based on changing connections that are mass and time limited that need to be scanned and scouted to be used.

No local is the gift that makes all that bother and work OK.


A bit simplistic but yes. There are a lot of other factors as well though, like the money you can make there, the different way structures and living in WHs work, the logistics, and a ton of details that get glossed over in "changing connections that are mass and time limited", like the fact that everyone is potentially 2-3 jumps from High Sec, but also potentially 2-3 jumps from a huge neighbor that wants them dead.
Cade Windstalker
#34 - 2017-02-07 19:25:43 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Yes that's all good stuff. People clumping together and working together - what a great concept. So let's look at the alpha. It's pretty easy to leave your old computer (you know the one you used 2 years ago before you upgraded) as an alpha scout. Does everyone need to do it??? No, just one of the guys. So for 5 different players - 1 guy still having his old computer functional for scout duty isn't exactly a stretch. I'm not asking everyone to go out and purchase and additional computer just for scouting. Be reasonable. There are more than enough spare / old computers scattered across the eve player base that this isn't a death sentence. As far as boring duty - Gates make activation sounds - you can literally be 3 rooms away from your computer and hear someone coming. Implying that someone has to be 100% focused and spamming d-scan is not a logical argument. WH folk have been surviving on a tabbed out wh cloaky scout for years. It ain't difficult.

The guys this wouldn't work for??? The solo MMO player, the macro operator that relies on local, the afk farmer, and maybe the active player running 20 mining accounts. I'm OK with who it wouldn't work for.

This would be a change that would have a lot of folks up in arms initially, but it would quickly fade as folks realize just how easy it is to be accountable for their own farming safety. As the guy stated previously "That's how these threads happen at all, there are people who want to live without local (because it's kinda broken) but without playing eve on 'ultimate survival mode'. " All I'm hearing from you is "Null in general is full of lazy farmers that can't survive without the crutch of local. My null corp and alliance isn't good enough or strong enough to be accountable for our undocked space activities." or "I can't AFK macro without local"

That's all I really hear from you. (OK, sometimes it comes through as "I'm scared", but not usually)


The base assumption that people have older computer that can play Eve is flawed from the start. I can currently run 2-3 clients on my main computer, but that's literally all I have because my old computer got upgraded into my current one. Even if we assume that the ratio you pulled out of thin air is accurate, that 1 in 5 people have a second computer that can run a cut down 1-screen Alpha for scouting, those people aren't going to be evenly distributed so some people are going to be out of luck.

That in and of itself makes this a bad idea.

On top of that CCP have explicitly stated that they don't want older players abusing alpha accounts, and that they may further restrict them if they see this happening and there are certainly things they could do to make it hard to run an Alpha in the same house as an Omega, which would be bad for legitimate Alpha players.

So now we're talking about CCP creating a situation that incentivizes something they've said they don't want, and the likely fixes probably seriously inconvenience legitimate alpha players.

Also that wormhole comparison is grossly inaccurate. Quite often the scout in a Wormhole is an active player focused on that account and at best may be running the salvage side of the operation as well. In return they get a cut of the money earned by the fleet. They also have more to do than just watch a single in-gate to see if anyone uses it, they're generally running probes, watching D-Scan, and checking for new site spawns.

None of that works in Null as things stand currently because most PvE is a solo affair and watching a single gate as a primary activity is mind numbingly boring. On a related note, that means that your "people it wouldn't work for" list includes the vast majority of Null Sec PvE. If Null PvE was changed to be much more group focused (which I'm in favor of) then paying scouts and giving them more to do might work, but right now you're assuming alts for all of this to work, which is bad design.

As to the rest, if that's all you're hearing then I'm not sure you understand how the average player in Null plays and the direction the game design, for PvE especially, funnels people in out there. Never mind how it works in WHs and why things like scouting just work better out there than they do in Null as engaging activities.
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