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UI Scaling For 4K

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Author
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#21 - 2017-02-02 15:56:59 UTC
I think people are describing the 2D sprite layer as the problem. You can think of the client as having three main layers when you're in space. The deepest layer is the one that contains the 3D models of your ships, stations, asteroids. The worldspace. The intermediate layer is also 3D, and it's mainly the range bubble of the tactical overlay. It reacts to the 3D environment according to rotation and distance.

The topmost, flat layer contains the neocom and the tables of the game. It doesn't react to the 3D environment. This is fine for displaying square tables and text, but using it for representing the worldspace is kinda backwards. HUD-type elements should be in the intermediate, reactive layer along with the range bubble.

high pixel density displays are still elective, so this scaling issue is still an outlier case. But maybe five years from now it will have to be addressed. I really hope when icons are reconsidered, they will be moved out of the 2D sprite layer.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#22 - 2017-02-02 15:59:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
hey Darwin I didn't know you posted heh. funny how we both mentioned the low adoption rate... for now.

are there plans to rework the icon system
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#23 - 2017-02-02 16:08:24 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
are there plans to rework the icon system

I don't have a well-informed answer for you on that, unfortunately.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins

Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#24 - 2017-02-02 16:58:02 UTC
Thanks Darwin. PS the heading indicators are cool.

I think scaling is sort of important beyond looks because EVE depends on tables so heavily. It would help playability to have more screen space.
Brigadine Ferathine
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2017-02-03 01:48:16 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
As a general rule, you're a lot more likely to get a developer response about your feature requests if you post in the appropriate forum.

That said, there was a recent thread here which has some information in it about where we are currently on this issue.

TLDR: The graphics team tests against high res monitors to make sure the game functions, but as far as adding additional support, adoption rates of 4k monitors are so far fairly low. We're keeping an eye on it, however.

Thank you for the response. I hate to be that guy but maybe adoption is low/slow because its not supported ;) I mean lets be honest, 4k, 8k and beyond isn't going stay on the DL forever. Would be nice to be prepared. Anywho thanks again. This is a big deal to some people and the future.
mkint
#26 - 2017-02-03 01:58:47 UTC
So, this had me baffled in the other thread as well: is the UI scaling feature pre rendered or something? You'd think there'd just be a variable to change. Like maybe if you got into the settings files you'd be able to change it to a specific "unsupported" scaling. If that's not an option, and it's pre rendered in some weird way... isn't that terrible design? WTF, amiright?

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#27 - 2017-02-03 10:45:07 UTC
mkint wrote:
is the UI scaling feature pre rendered or something? You'd think there'd just be a variable to change.

That's pretty much how it works. The UI scale is capped, however, to keep it in a range that works well, and the cap varies based on device resolution. Most of the work with increasing the cap would be a matter of verifying that all the features in the game work at the new cap, and resolving any issues we find. There could be quite a lot of issues, though.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins

Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2017-02-03 16:19:00 UTC
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
CCP Darwin wrote:
As a general rule, you're a lot more likely to get a developer response about your feature requests if you post in the appropriate forum.

That said, there was a recent thread here which has some information in it about where we are currently on this issue.

TLDR: The graphics team tests against high res monitors to make sure the game functions, but as far as adding additional support, adoption rates of 4k monitors are so far fairly low. We're keeping an eye on it, however.

Thank you for the response. I hate to be that guy but maybe adoption is low/slow because its not supported ;) I mean lets be honest, 4k, 8k and beyond isn't going stay on the DL forever. Would be nice to be prepared. Anywho thanks again. This is a big deal to some people and the future.


From the Steam hardware survey, which is probably the best source you could get on adoption rate of new tech into gaming systems. This is the January 2017 results for main monitor.

1024 x 768 1.66% -0.02%
1280 x 720 1.50% -0.17%
1280 x 768 0.35% 0.00%
1280 x 800 0.70% 0.00%
1280 x 960 0.21% +0.01%
1280 x 1024 4.05% -0.17%
1360 x 768 2.92% -0.07%
1366 x 768 25.50% +0.05%
1440 x 900 3.75% +0.07%
1536 x 864 4.06% -0.62%
1600 x 900 6.26% +0.01%
1600 x 1200 0.21% -0.01%
1680 x 1050 3.56% 0.00%
1920 x 1080 39.90% +0.92%
1920 x 1200 1.08% -0.08%
2560 x 1080 0.49% +0.02%
2560 x 1440 1.58% 0.00%
3440 x 1440 0.21% +0.21%
3840 x 2160 0.21% +0.21%
Other 1.81% -0.35%

Yes 4k is coming but not that fast.
mkint
#29 - 2017-02-03 17:02:42 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
CCP Darwin wrote:
As a general rule, you're a lot more likely to get a developer response about your feature requests if you post in the appropriate forum.

That said, there was a recent thread here which has some information in it about where we are currently on this issue.

TLDR: The graphics team tests against high res monitors to make sure the game functions, but as far as adding additional support, adoption rates of 4k monitors are so far fairly low. We're keeping an eye on it, however.

Thank you for the response. I hate to be that guy but maybe adoption is low/slow because its not supported ;) I mean lets be honest, 4k, 8k and beyond isn't going stay on the DL forever. Would be nice to be prepared. Anywho thanks again. This is a big deal to some people and the future.


From the Steam hardware survey, which is probably the best source you could get on adoption rate of new tech into gaming systems. This is the January 2017 results for main monitor.

1024 x 768 1.66% -0.02%
1280 x 720 1.50% -0.17%
1280 x 768 0.35% 0.00%
1280 x 800 0.70% 0.00%
1280 x 960 0.21% +0.01%
1280 x 1024 4.05% -0.17%
1360 x 768 2.92% -0.07%
1366 x 768 25.50% +0.05%
1440 x 900 3.75% +0.07%
1536 x 864 4.06% -0.62%
1600 x 900 6.26% +0.01%
1600 x 1200 0.21% -0.01%
1680 x 1050 3.56% 0.00%
1920 x 1080 39.90% +0.92%
1920 x 1200 1.08% -0.08%
2560 x 1080 0.49% +0.02%
2560 x 1440 1.58% 0.00%
3440 x 1440 0.21% +0.21%
3840 x 2160 0.21% +0.21%
Other 1.81% -0.35%

Yes 4k is coming but not that fast.

Is this a measure of what the OS is set for, the games are being set at, or what the hardware itself is?

I don't have a 4k monitor. I have a crappy laptop monitor, so I don't really have a dog in this race, but I am more interested in good software design. A player can set the resolution to whatever they want, so there's already a form of half-assed but flexible UI scaling, I don't understand why the same flexibility isn't just built into the UI scaling feature itself, even in a technically-unsupported-edit-some-settings-files manner. Allowing that kind of flexibility when possible doesn't hurt Bethesda after all.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#30 - 2017-02-03 20:05:20 UTC
mkint wrote:
I I am more interested in good software design. A player can set the resolution to whatever they want, so there's already a form of half-assed but flexible UI scaling, I don't understand why the same flexibility isn't just built into the UI scaling feature itself, even in a technically-unsupported-edit-some-settings-files manner. Allowing that kind of flexibility when possible doesn't hurt Bethesda after all.

yea, when it comes to customization the EVE UI has been rather lacking. At least you can move most of the windows around now :<

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Brigadine Ferathine
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2017-02-04 00:02:36 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
mkint wrote:
I I am more interested in good software design. A player can set the resolution to whatever they want, so there's already a form of half-assed but flexible UI scaling, I don't understand why the same flexibility isn't just built into the UI scaling feature itself, even in a technically-unsupported-edit-some-settings-files manner. Allowing that kind of flexibility when possible doesn't hurt Bethesda after all.

yea, when it comes to customization the EVE UI has been rather lacking. At least you can move most of the windows around now :<

That will always be a gripe for me. if excel was a pdf. That is eves UI.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#32 - 2017-02-04 04:16:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
Here's an explanation of what icons are and the problem they present with scaling for high res displays.

http://i.imgur.com/2VgrRZj.jpg

restricting magnifications to 2x and 4x makes sense because that's also the multiplier between 1080p, 4k, and 8k.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#33 - 2017-02-04 04:22:32 UTC
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
mkint wrote:
I I am more interested in good software design. A player can set the resolution to whatever they want, so there's already a form of half-assed but flexible UI scaling, I don't understand why the same flexibility isn't just built into the UI scaling feature itself, even in a technically-unsupported-edit-some-settings-files manner. Allowing that kind of flexibility when possible doesn't hurt Bethesda after all.

yea, when it comes to customization the EVE UI has been rather lacking. At least you can move most of the windows around now :<

That will always be a gripe for me. if excel was a pdf. That is eves UI.

that's actually false. the UI is worse because the preferred image format for PDFs is vector. "The whole point" of the PDF document format is consistency across hardware and resolutions, and EVE's UI breaks because it is raster (not vector).

anyway. I really feel like icons in the space viewport is a travesty.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#34 - 2017-02-04 04:33:54 UTC
Everyone realizes, though, if you get a 4k display and then also double the dimensions of your icons, you've negated the benefit of a higher pixel density display.
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#35 - 2017-02-04 16:21:04 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
As a general rule, you're a lot more likely to get a developer response about your feature requests if you post in the appropriate forum.

That said, there was a recent thread here which has some information in it about where we are currently on this issue.

TLDR: The graphics team tests against high res monitors to make sure the game functions, but as far as adding additional support, adoption rates of 4k monitors are so far fairly low. We're keeping an eye on it, however.



i have a 4k monitor....

All my views are my own - never be afraid to post with your main, unless you're going to post some dumb shit

Brigadine Ferathine
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2017-02-04 19:07:06 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Everyone realizes, though, if you get a 4k display and then also double the dimensions of your icons, you've negated the benefit of a higher pixel density display.

Not really. The textures still look better. Troll
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#37 - 2017-02-04 21:04:11 UTC
I suppose I should have said in the case of icons. I wasn't trolling but I happen to disagree with your assertion that EVE textures look better on a 4k display.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#38 - 2017-02-04 21:26:04 UTC
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
Everyone realizes, though, if you get a 4k display and then also double the dimensions of your icons, you've negated the benefit of a higher pixel density display.

Not really. The textures still look better. Troll

quoting because I get the feeling you might edit this out.

You could look at it another way. If you get a 4k display and then wish for bigger anything, do you think maybe the 4k display wasn't the best idea in this case
Haraldhardrade
Pax Amarr
#39 - 2017-02-04 21:41:53 UTC
I got my desktop connected to my "43" TV and I lie down in the couch to play games with wireless keyboard/controller. But the sidebar and text in EVE is too small Straight
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#40 - 2017-02-04 22:25:13 UTC
Haraldhardrade wrote:
I got my desktop connected to my "43" TV and I lie down in the couch to play games with wireless keyboard/controller. But the sidebar and text in EVE is too small Straight


You do realize what you are saying is essentially "CCP didn't make a system that fit my special snowflake setup" right?
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