These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Citadel Asset Management service
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2017-02-03 00:53:45 UTC
Market service functionality could be useful in many ways to a corp, but the fuel cost is unjustifiable for a full market.

I propose a new kind of service module: Asset Management Systems.

Limited AMS:

Provides market services at 1/3 fuel cost. This is balanced by only having Corp visibilty and having much higher pg and cpu cost. This is due to using Citadel power, computing and maintenance systems to cut down fuel requirements. Basically if this is fitted the Citadel must sacrifice how many services it can run or how much defence it can mount.

Can only be fitted on Astrahaus.

Advanced AMS:

Provides market services at 2/3 fuel costs, pg and cpu impact is correspondingly lower.

Alliance wide visibilty

Can only be fitted on Fortizar or Keepstar

Full market service module remains the same.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#2 - 2017-02-03 01:25:24 UTC
if you are too small to justify the market just use corp contracts

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2017-02-03 06:38:19 UTC
These do work fine but they are clunky. I believe the options above would give better flexibilty at corp and alliance level using the already existing market module code.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#4 - 2017-02-03 07:42:11 UTC
all i see is you providing a significantly cheaper market option for null sec alliances


how exact;y are contracts clunky?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2017-02-03 09:06:47 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
all i see is you providing a significantly cheaper market option for null sec alliances


how exact;y are contracts clunky?


This isn't intended to make life simpler for Nullsec, they can more easily source fuel as they have access to the isotope rich ice varieties in their areas of relative safety.

This is aimed at giving a QoL improvement to smaller corps in hisec, lose and WH without giving he logistics folks a hernia.

As for contracts they are asynchronous. When dealing with just 10 people for materials, ships, modules etc it becomes onerous to set up contracts and then wait for them to be accepted. When there are dozens to hundreds across different TZ's it becomes an instant migraine. It can be and is worked around via a lot of organizational effort but a corp wide market space would greatly enhance the QoL for small to medium entities.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#6 - 2017-02-03 09:19:14 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
how exact;y are contracts clunky?

Let's see:

  • no price refresh without resetting the entire contract and thus paying full taxes over and over again
  • no possibility to buy custom amounts of a thing because contracts can only be bought full or not at all
  • duration of max 2 weeks
  • contract search is as far from being convenient and easy to use as the sun is from being a habitable planet
  • Multiple Items show Multiple Items and not what is in them in the search results (which is obviously understandable but makes it harder to find the right contract)

To name a few things...

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#7 - 2017-02-03 11:08:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
how exact;y are contracts clunky?

Let's see:

  • no price refresh without resetting the entire contract and thus paying full taxes over and over again
  • no possibility to buy custom amounts of a thing because contracts can only be bought full or not at all
  • duration of max 2 weeks
  • contract search is as far from being convenient and easy to use as the sun is from being a habitable planet
  • Multiple Items show Multiple Items and not what is in them in the search results (which is obviously understandable but makes it harder to find the right contract)

To name a few things...



all things that are not much of an issue when just dealing with a corp to small to afford the market mod


FFs its 30 blocks an hour that is cheaper than a large faction POS

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugh Crow-Slave
#8 - 2017-02-03 11:09:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:


This isn't intended to make life simpler for Nullsec.



intent is irrelevant



outside of truly pub markets this is what would happen


(lets assume this some how didn't become alliance wide)


every alliance would just set up a corp inside it for people to put an alt in to do their shopping

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#9 - 2017-02-03 12:14:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
how exact;y are contracts clunky?

Let's see:

  • no price refresh without resetting the entire contract and thus paying full taxes over and over again
  • no possibility to buy custom amounts of a thing because contracts can only be bought full or not at all
  • duration of max 2 weeks
  • contract search is as far from being convenient and easy to use as the sun is from being a habitable planet
  • Multiple Items show Multiple Items and not what is in them in the search results (which is obviously understandable but makes it harder to find the right contract)

To name a few things...



all things that are not much of an issue when just dealing with a corp to small to afford the market mod


FFs its 30 blocks an hour that is cheaper than a large faction POS

Point 1 and 3 are especially an issue for small corps because their turn-around rate is ridiculously small. Even in my big alliance I have contracts sitting around for more than 2 weeks and have had to renew them 3 times by now in some cases.

30 Blocks times 22k makes 600k ISK spent per hour just on the market service, expenses that you cannot get back in a small group's market activity (which is another reason why citadels are unsuitable for small groups).

Having said that, I am not really sure if limited market services can improve that. All I am saying is that corp contracts are a terrible way to circumvent the shortcoming of already terrible structures. Sure enough, if you only provide fitted ships in the corp contracts and put ammo to restock in a corp-wide accessible hangar, you could avoid the market entirely, but it also leaves you wide open for thieves to grab the multi-billion ISK ammo stash ... unless you only put smaller quantities in that hangar from a restricted access hangar, which in turn increases workload and how cumbersome the system is for leadership. All in all, not really a satisfying situation. vOv

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#10 - 2017-02-03 12:35:40 UTC
I can see a corporation restricted market being extremely useful as a commodity exchange for industrial corporations. A place where people who make stuff can place buy orders for materials harvested by corpmates who mine/mission or PI and others can sell materials not available locally to keep the wheels of industry turning. I expect it would be most useful as an engineering service module perhaps with the same fuel requirements as a regular market but qualify for the EC fuel economy bonus.

Whether it would be useful enough to justify adding it to the game, I'm not sure. You can accomplish the same job with a regular market - as long as you're willing to pay the fuel bill.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#11 - 2017-02-03 13:21:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
how exact;y are contracts clunky?

Let's see:

  • no price refresh without resetting the entire contract and thus paying full taxes over and over again
  • no possibility to buy custom amounts of a thing because contracts can only be bought full or not at all
  • duration of max 2 weeks
  • contract search is as far from being convenient and easy to use as the sun is from being a habitable planet
  • Multiple Items show Multiple Items and not what is in them in the search results (which is obviously understandable but makes it harder to find the right contract)

To name a few things...



all things that are not much of an issue when just dealing with a corp to small to afford the market mod


FFs its 30 blocks an hour that is cheaper than a large faction POS

Point 1 and 3 are especially an issue for small corps because their turn-around rate is ridiculously small. Even in my big alliance I have contracts sitting around for more than 2 weeks and have had to renew them 3 times by now in some cases.

30 Blocks times 22k makes 600k ISK spent per hour just on the market service, expenses that you cannot get back in a small group's market activity (which is another reason why citadels are unsuitable for small groups).

Having said that, I am not really sure if limited market services can improve that. All I am saying is that corp contracts are a terrible way to circumvent the shortcoming of already terrible structures. Sure enough, if you only provide fitted ships in the corp contracts and put ammo to restock in a corp-wide accessible hangar, you could avoid the market entirely, but it also leaves you wide open for thieves to grab the multi-billion ISK ammo stash ... unless you only put smaller quantities in that hangar from a restricted access hangar, which in turn increases workload and how cumbersome the system is for leadership. All in all, not really a satisfying situation. vOv


If you're doing this to turn a profit I have no sympathy the module was never intended for it to be profitable with a small market only with large ones. In fact it was limited intentionally by restricting it to only L and XL along with the higher fuel cost so that you couldn't make an easy profit

The structures are great not sure why you seem so hard on them, definitely a vast improvement over posted.

If your contacts are up over two weeks sell something else and considering the low competition you should not be needing to keep changing the price

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#12 - 2017-02-03 17:13:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Which in turn begs the question what small groups are supposed to do... If I remember correctly, someone in another thread said that they are great for small groups as well. Roll

No price changes, but resetting, which costs the same.

I do not see an improvement over, let's say, outposts for small groups or large. So far, everything you can do in a citadel, an outpost can do better and is more convenient to use. Astrahus? Without market and fuel wasting services? Fortizar? Same just with a market. Refining in them? You don't even know what you can refine unless you test it, whereas you can refine everything at full yield in a Minmatar outpost or station. Engineering complexes? Same story and in addition, you need to have several of them in order to benefit from their bonuses for a wider variety of things. I mentioned overview clutter in a different thread, didn't I? Roll Producing in them? To get your jobs aborted by destruction and your BPO put into lockdown and then you need to pay for their retrieval, which slows down the return on investment on them even more? Not to mention that you can't get people as easily to deliver to or even picking up if it's in low sec from your new and shiny production place as you could before because most of them are rightfully very wary about picking up or delivering a contract because they can get shut out and shot to death easily. A Keepstar? If you are lucky and no one notices you anchoring and onlining one, you have then painted a huge bull's eye onto your group for some fun time. Not to mention that most groups who own supers or titans cannot afford a Keepstar or are not lucky enough to anchor, online and keep one for a prolonged period of time. Those people are screwed royally after POS are gone.

Care to enlighten me about what has gotten better? Being able to put a cheap Astrahus into a once stationless system, which then retains nearly the same uselessness, is so far the only thing that could be classified as an advantage if you ignore all the shortcomings.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2017-02-04 01:57:28 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:


If you're doing this to turn a profit I have no sympathy the module was never intended for it to be profitable with a small market only with large ones. In fact it was limited intentionally by restricting it to only L and XL along with the higher fuel cost so that you couldn't make an easy profit

The structures are great not sure why you seem so hard on them, definitely a vast improvement over posted.

If your contacts are up over two weeks sell something else and considering the low competition you should not be needing to keep changing the price


Actually I like the structures so far. However I don't intend this idea to turn a profit as such. It is about exactly the name I used. Asset Manegement. The ability for a corp to place buy and sell orders internally, to properly run the corp, to easily apply corp taxes to goods and transactions. All the things that would make being in a good player corp an improvement over NPC.

Also if each corp creates an alt to trade in an astrahaus with an ASM it's putting all their eggs in one fitting gimped basket, whilst pushing each individual corp back into corp contract pain. Lets simplify the idea down to only one module for the Astrahaus, the corp wide ASM. Make it use half the fuel so that an alliance of more than two corps would be better served and protected by a full public market.

The code for the market module exists and the new structures are fif like ships so having a corp wide visibilty module thaf only fits Astras and has drawbacks on cpu anx pg should hopefully be achievable. This would increase viabilty and importantly managabilty of small and medium corps.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#14 - 2017-02-04 02:23:29 UTC
but again if a corp of 5 people were able to fund a large tower (10 blocks more than the market) no corp that can't afford this is to big just to use contracts. the price of a clonebay + market is less then we used to be paying for just a tower

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2017-02-04 07:57:52 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
but again if a corp of 5 people were able to fund a large tower (10 blocks more than the market) no corp that can't afford this is to big just to use contracts. the price of a clonebay + market is less then we used to be paying for just a tower


This would be useful fo groups of 10's of players or more to co-ordinate. As you say it's the sama as a large tower, but that's on top of every other service you ae using for defence and manufacture. Add in drilling platforms later and you have even more fuel burden.

The ASM would be a huge benefit to snall and medium groups as they are the ones who will already have very stretched logistics. This at lesst would trade some of the effort involved in hauling the extra fuel for some of the time taken in clunky contract management. This would come at an Isk price and an assset that needs defending.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#16 - 2017-02-04 08:09:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
You don't pay fuel for any defence and you will not be paying extra fuel with drilling platform unless you begin to use a new service with it. Unless you are using every single service out atm you are probably paying less than or just slightly more than the large tower.not to mention this is an added service over what the towers are able to do so you're actually getting more bang for your buck then you were

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2017-02-04 12:48:27 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
You don't pay fuel for any defence and you will not be paying extra fuel with drilling platform unless you begin to use a new service with it. Unless you are using every single service out atm you are probably paying less than or just slightly more than the large tower.not to mention this is an added service over what the towers are able to do so you're actually getting more bang for your buck then you were


My point is that for a smaller scale corp the functionality ir required and already coded but 'Just another faction large tower' worth of fuel is actually a larger hit on the logistics guys than it is for large groups.

Small corps will still require several services if they are doing anything more than just using an Astrahaus as a safe haven. For those corps it is not 'just another' 30 blocks per hour. These structures were supposed to be for every scale of corp but fuel logistics can rapidly become a limiting factor. Trading another asset in space (Atrahaus market) as a fixed up front cost for more utility but greater risk seems fair to me.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#18 - 2017-02-04 12:58:38 UTC
... but it's not required 14 years of eve showed just how not required it is...


And it is the module that brings the price back up to the cost of a large pos not an additional pos running refining manufacturing and a market is only a bit more than a large tower was

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#19 - 2017-02-04 14:51:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Yep, 1 single service module already costs more than a large tower's fuel consumption. Add Reprocessing, Industry, Cloning, soon intel and what not else to the mix and you have unsustainable costs ... unless you are a big group or have lots of public traffic.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#20 - 2017-02-04 15:24:58 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Yep, 1 single service module already costs more than a large tower's fuel consumption. Add Reprocessing, Industry, Cloning, soon intel and what not else to the mix and you have unsustainable costs ... unless you are a big group or have lots of public traffic.



what module cost more exactly?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
12Next page