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Tornado or Oracle? And why?
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Aamrr
#21 - 2012-01-19 20:56:57 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I looked at this last night and I feel that the Tornado wins because its:
- Faster
- Better tracking
- Num mids >= 4

-Liang


I thought tracking didn't matter on tier-3's? Big smile
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#22 - 2012-01-19 23:41:40 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Spitfire
Aamrr wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
I looked at this last night and I feel that the Tornado wins because its:
- Faster
- Better tracking
- Num mids >= 4

-Liang


I thought tracking didn't matter on tier-3's? Big smile


You got me ****** up for someone else bro. I was the one that was patiently explaining how the tracking deficiency (which truthfully has more to do with sig resolution than raw tracking) can be mitigated - not how it doesn't matter in the first place. Honestly I don't know how you can watch my videos and conclude that tracking doesn't matter.

But yes, there are ways to mitigate the problem - and after a certain point extra tracking isn't as useful as extra range or extra DPS. But we aren't talking about that here.

*snip* Please keep it civil. Spitfire

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#23 - 2012-01-20 00:20:45 UTC  |  Edited by: m0cking bird
Liang Nuren wrote:
Aamrr wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
I looked at this last night and I feel that the Tornado wins because its:
- Faster
- Better tracking
- Num mids >= 4

-Liang


I thought tracking didn't matter on tier-3's? Big smile


You got me ****** up for someone else bro. I was the one that was patiently explaining how the tracking deficiency (which truthfully has more to do with sig resolution than raw tracking) can be mitigated - not how it doesn't matter in the first place. Honestly I don't know how you can watch my videos and conclude that tracking doesn't matter.

But yes, there are ways to mitigate the problem - and after a certain point extra tracking isn't as useful as extra range or extra DPS. But we aren't talking about that here.

Any other "cute" questions to ask or are you done being a ******* moron?

-Liang


Have to say your statements are boss and badass. I laughed really hard.

Oracle is better with Pulses compared to auto-cannons period... Alpha goes to the Tornado, but the Oracle comes close. The Oracle is very well rounded and I would give it to the Oracle. I've also said the Talos was better than the Naga not to long after it hit Tranq and I flew them both. So, take what I have to say with a grain of salt. Many believe the Naga is better than a Talos


- proxyyyy
Aamrr
#24 - 2012-01-20 00:23:48 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Aamrr wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
I looked at this last night and I feel that the Tornado wins because its:
- Faster
- Better tracking
- Num mids >= 4

-Liang


I thought tracking didn't matter on tier-3's? Big smile


You got me ****** up for someone else bro. I was the one that was patiently explaining how the tracking deficiency (which truthfully has more to do with sig resolution than raw tracking) can be mitigated - not how it doesn't matter in the first place. Honestly I don't know how you can watch my videos and conclude that tracking doesn't matter.

But yes, there are ways to mitigate the problem - and after a certain point extra tracking isn't as useful as extra range or extra DPS. But we aren't talking about that here.

Any other "cute" questions to ask or are you done being a ******* moron?

-Liang


It was a joke. Considering all the rage that went on in that thread, I figured we could use some levity. Lighten up and find some common decency for once.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#25 - 2012-01-20 00:24:35 UTC
m0cking bird wrote:


Have to your statements are boss and badass. I laughed really hard.

Oracle is better with Pulses compared to auto-cannons period... Alpha goes to the Tornado, but the Oracle comes close. The Oracle is very well rounded and I would give it to the Oracle. I've also said the Talos was better than the Naga not to long after it hit Tranq and I flew them both. So, take what I have to say with a grain of salt. Many believe the Naga is better than a Talos


- proxyyyy


Thanks :D

As to the Tornado vs Oracle: I just don't see a way to make my Tier 3 play style work on a ship without 4 mids. I tried really hard and it just didn't seem to pan out in EFT. I should probably just sack up and try it out on TQ though.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#26 - 2012-01-20 00:50:22 UTC  |  Edited by: m0cking bird
Oracle
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Warp Disruptor II

Mega Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency L

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I



Oracle
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I
Fourier Transform Tracking Program
Fourier Transform Tracking Program
Power Diagnostic System II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Invulnerability Field II

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I



-proxyyyy
drdxie
#27 - 2012-01-20 01:59:49 UTC
Garr Earthbender wrote:
well by the time this post got rezzed, I trained T2 large pulse lasers to 4.

My setup that's currently working is 535 DPS and 2714 Alpha at 58 km with tracking of .037.

My buddy runs an alpha Nado that does 649 DPS and 10761 Alpha at 15+53 KM and a tracking of .023

For me, I always wanna do my best deeps, and I think the Oracle does that better at a farther range. However, if you absolutely positively have to get that falcon or blackbird down with 1 shot, then look no further than the Nado.

Alphawtfpwning a Falcon


You put large pulses on an Oracle Shocked make me want to Cry. When you properly trained and have mega pulses you will be doing over 900DPS, and I still have some training to do. Maybe the large T2 was a typo and you didn't fit Heat sinks.. which is maybe not as bad.. but still makes me want to CryLol

Caldari Loving needed.. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1608277&#post1608277
Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2012-01-20 04:23:31 UTC
drdxie wrote:
Garr Earthbender wrote:
well by the time this post got rezzed, I trained T2 large pulse lasers to 4.

My setup that's currently working is 535 DPS and 2714 Alpha at 58 km with tracking of .037.

My buddy runs an alpha Nado that does 649 DPS and 10761 Alpha at 15+53 KM and a tracking of .023

For me, I always wanna do my best deeps, and I think the Oracle does that better at a farther range. However, if you absolutely positively have to get that falcon or blackbird down with 1 shot, then look no further than the Nado.

Alphawtfpwning a Falcon


You put large pulses on an Oracle Shocked make me want to Cry. When you properly trained and have mega pulses you will be doing over 900DPS, and I still have some training to do. Maybe the large T2 was a typo and you didn't fit Heat sinks.. which is maybe not as bad.. but still makes me want to CryLol


Might be because I'm on a tracking kick. Knowing that I face battlecruisers and smaller for the most part, and knowing that I'll be moving more often than not, I want more tracking. Even WITH 3 heat sink, Scorch will only do 719 DPS for me (not all lvl 5 *GASP*). This BC isn't made for close combat, so I'm gonna make sure I can hit from around 60 KM. So I put tracking enhancers in the lows with 1 heat sink.

And yes, I can get 900 DPS with 3 heat sinks and IN Multifreq.

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#29 - 2012-01-20 20:21:19 UTC
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui wrote:
Tornado: better alpha (passive targeter + 1400s + speedy ship = win?), quite workable with meta4 guns.
Oracle: better DPS, but you need T2 lasers (esp. in pulse fits) to get full performance out of it.

This.

Liang Nuren wrote:

I looked at this last night and I feel that the Tornado wins because its:
- Faster
- Better tracking
- Num mids >= 4

Also this.

It is worth noting that the Oracle is the tankiest tier 3 BC. It also has horrible, horrible, tracking but at least it's tanky.

Also, when thinking about DPS, keep in mind that in short fights, alpha affects "effective DPS" quite a lot.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2012-01-20 21:20:44 UTC
Yup. I read that Alpha thread. It makes total sense. I'm probably defending the Oracle a bit much since I fly Amarr mainly. That and the fact it's the most effective nano BC that they have now. It out damages, out ranges, and out speeds the Harbinger, with the drawbacks being tracking, EHP, and no drones.

I fly with a nano drake gang, so there's plenty of points and webs to go around. Also, I tend to go pie here and there, so the extra EHP is worth it. Either way, here's my fit:

[Oracle, Effective Nano Oracle]
Heat Sink II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II
Tracking Enhancer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I

Or you could replace the invuln field for a point. Don't go pie on a gate though!!!

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#31 - 2012-01-20 21:25:11 UTC
Yeah I'm not sold on that Inv. It just sits there and sucks capacitor when you aren't even being shot most of the time. I took the Invuln off my Talos and replaced it with a web.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Diomidis
Pod Liberation Authority
Kingless.
#32 - 2012-01-20 21:48:14 UTC
It's the same old-story with all of these ships (weapon platforms) guys...

IMHO, the bigger the gang, the more advantageous is the Pulse Oracle over the AC Tornado.

Tornado is better for small gangs as it can effectively field a point, BS class DPS and HAC agility/speed/tank.

Oracle with Pulses has GREATLY better dmg projection beyond point range (aka, when you are thinking of it as a pure dmg dealer). Tracking might be worse as a base stat, but the extra effective range can mitigate that. Shield buffer tanked (with no point) is still fast enough to control range and transversal.

The arty Tornado plays another game, and it's effectiveness is far greatly dependent on the support it gets (unless the application is alpha poppin things on bubbles and stations, or suicide ganking).

"War does not determine who is right - only who is left." -- Bertrand Russell

Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2012-01-20 22:17:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Garr Earthbender
THIS JUST IN!!!!

Oracle beats Drake in major plex! (with stabber fleet holding epic point....)

BAM

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper
Christina Trild
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-01-20 22:42:36 UTC
Tornado is a gankers heaven and can put out More alpha then a oracle if thats what you need them for Twisted
Diomidis
Pod Liberation Authority
Kingless.
#35 - 2012-01-20 23:09:06 UTC
Garr Earthbender wrote:
THIS JUST IN!!!!

Oracle beats Drake in major plex! (with stabber fleet holding epic point....)

BAM


Wow, I am so proud of you...this was quite an achievement, and I hope you feel relieved now that you could share it with us.

"War does not determine who is right - only who is left." -- Bertrand Russell

Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2012-01-20 23:16:17 UTC
Just trying to say that the Oracle is a decent ship that can put out the deeps. I never got into long point range. As a matter of fact, the closest I got was 50 KM. I guess I'm wondering if the nado could keep up the same damage at the same range? I was also primary for 1/2 the engagement. Shield kept up for the whole time. No invuln on it this time. Long point instead.

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#37 - 2012-01-20 23:20:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Garr Earthbender wrote:
Just trying to say that the Oracle is a decent ship that can put out the deeps. I never got into long point range. As a matter of fact, the closest I got was 50 KM. I guess I'm wondering if the nado could keep up the same damage at the same range? I was also primary for 1/2 the engagement. Shield kept up for the whole time. No invuln on it this time. Long point instead.


Eh, I'd say that the Tornado and Oracle aren't really in competition for the same role. The Oracle is very much the hang out at 30-60km guy while the Tornado and Talos should be hanging out much closer to the fight. It means they have to be more on their toes but as a rule it seems to work out so far.

-Liang

Ed: Also, I know everyone is all lusty over Scorch but I don't think I'd be using it on an Oracle. I get extremely skittish about not having a drone bay.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Diomidis
Pod Liberation Authority
Kingless.
#38 - 2012-01-20 23:35:22 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
[quote=Garr Earthbender]Ed: Also, I know everyone is all lusty over Scorch but I don't think I'd be using it on an Oracle. I get extremely skittish about not having a drone bay.


It's the way to go actually...just like Null is a must have for the talos that works it's way and doesn't straight gank loners, the Scorch works for you in pretty much any situation Tier 3s are shining.

Tracking is crap against frigs, but that's true with faction ammo with ALL the large guns - even with tracking bonuses, the enemy frig has to pay no attention to transversal, and even then it will be hard to land good shots on it. Ofc lucky (or stupid, depends on the side you are on) volleys on straight - approach-MWDing frigs can be devastating, but most of the times you have more to win than lose using T2 long range ammo with all "Short-range" turrets and Tier 3 DCs - with the Tornado being the exception maybe, as with 2x TEs shoots pretty far with faction.

In a nut-shell: Scorch and Null ftw.

"War does not determine who is right - only who is left." -- Bertrand Russell

Suleiman Shouaa
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#39 - 2012-01-21 02:46:37 UTC
Oracle puts down better DPS than the Nado at every applicable range due to it possessing more lows for Heat Sinks & Lasers doing more damage than ACs straight off the shelf, neglecting falloff/optimal. I've put Oracles at 20km from the primary in order to really lay down the pain with Conflag on anything Cruiser size and above and the DPS coming out is pretty amazing, especially since you can pull out to 60km if needed and still retain most of it.

Reg: tracking, fact of the matter is that any decent frigate pilot will not get nailed by any of the new Tier 3s at close range - they HAVE to pull out to hit them in reality in an actual challenging fight where it can't linger for vital seconds to line up that shot.

Nado for small gangs for the fact it can actually fit a point, Oracle for DPS.

Solo Oracle is also viable (true solo - without links, snakes etc.) but more so than with the other Tier 3s you have to be extremely careful of frigates due to it having the worst tracking.
Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2012-01-30 19:56:06 UTC
I'm still going with nado for alphawtfpwn and oracle for DPS/longer engagment stuff.

I've been enjoying the quick ammo swap when burning from gate. Jump in, uncloak, use IN multifreq until 20KM out, then switch to Scorch afterwards. Keep at range of 60, and you've got 40KM to GTFO or burn away. Range as 'tank' works pretty well.

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper
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