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Kronos Level IV's - Blasters Or Rails
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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#41 - 2017-01-30 22:03:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
hmskrecik wrote:
Web. I haven't found better solution. The good news is having slot for that is easy on Kronos.

Yes, you can run a stasis web. That still won't let you hit frigates and seems a bit of a waste just to be able to hit the occasional cruiser that ventures too close.

Blasters. Maybe on a Vindicator you need the extra range to tank. The Kronos doesn't have that problem.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#42 - 2017-01-30 23:41:01 UTC
I'm back on the blasters bandwagon for the Kronos. There are just too few missions where you need an 80km+ weapon and quite a few more where you need to be able to easily hit cruiser size targets at ranges less than 25km. Switching to 350mm rails helps, but then you might as well be running blasters anyway with the DPS drop. With three range-scripted tracking computers you can easily hit out to 76km, which is more than enough for insta-blapping frigates and destroyers. 40-60km seems to be the 'sweet' spot for blasters when using Null. Void is excellent against those persistent enemies as well as those NPCs that like to close to point-blank range.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#43 - 2017-01-30 23:50:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Double post.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Patrice Macmahon
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2017-01-31 15:08:30 UTC
Did LOT of shooting this weekend...

Rails are significantly safer, and you are much less likely to agro the full room due to positioning. Blaster Kronos can shoot out a full room of agro fairly quickly, but you are burning through cap boosters to keep the tank on in certain rooms. I also found I was having to leave the bastion Module off to control range and get DPS consistantly higher than what I was getting off a Javelin Rail fit.

So unfortunately it comes down to role.

Full Room Clears and Safety - Rail Kronos with MWD.

Blitzing and Damn the Cap Boosters - Blasters. - But at this point why are you not running a Vindicator?

 "Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki." 
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#45 - 2017-01-31 17:04:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
If you run missions often enough you know which NPCs not to trigger. I've never had to run cap boosters on any of my Kronos fits, and I manage just fine with a 2-slot tank (damage control and large armor repairer). In Bastion my Kronos can strike out to 79km, which is usually enough to smite frigates and turrets. If I need to pull 10-15km range that's what the MWD is for. There are only three missions I've found where NPCs will not close distance on you: "Assault", the Guristas in the first room on "Worlds Collide" and "Intercept the Saboteurs". For those missions it's easy enough to swap a tracking computer for a large micro jump drive. I'm not really a fan of any of these missions, so I tend to just skip them wherever possible.

So yes, if you want to MJD out and snipe from afar rails probably suit this style of play best. It's kind of boring, though - and I prefer clearing my missions faster and getting to the next one (and potentially a Burner).

In answer to your question of why not a Vindicator? Because while the Vindicator will do slightly more DPS on paper, the Kronos outranges it which translates into more actual DPS. Plus the Space Police.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#46 - 2017-01-31 18:32:46 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:
Web. I haven't found better solution. The good news is having slot for that is easy on Kronos.

Yes, you can run a stasis web. That still won't let you hit frigates and seems a bit of a waste just to be able to hit the occasional cruiser that ventures too close.

Blasters. Maybe on a Vindicator you need the extra range to tank. The Kronos doesn't have that problem.

Yesno. It's true that when frigs get under your rails you will not hit them. But let's be honest, when frigs get under your blasters you will not hit them too even with double scripted antimatter. You carry drones for a reason anyway.

The difference is just both the minimal and maximal shooting range, both in terms of ability to hit and in effective DPS. While blasters comfortably destroy stuff as close at 5km, they struggle at 70km. Rails easily project to 120km, maybe even to 150km if I bothered to fit sebo, but under 10-15km they cease to be relevant.

So it's just a matter of situation, what engagement range the mission throws at you, and of the decision, how do you prefer to position yourself.

It's not the question which gun is better or worse. It's the question which playing style enforced by given gun suits you more.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#47 - 2017-01-31 19:31:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
I can blap frigates from 20-80km without issue. Once they get below 20km though, that's drone territory. Blasters do not struggle at 5km - so I'm not sure where you get that impression. They can strike out to 40km without much of a DPS penalty and hitting targets at 75km isn't a problem, either (although with a damage reduction).

As I indicated, the vast majority of NPCs will in fact close range to some extent (some even to point-blank range). This is advantageous for blasters and less so for rails (particularly for 425mm rails which have poor tracking characteristics below 25km). Between a range of 40-50km blasters will outperform rails. Beyond that, rails certainly have an advantage. But it has less to do with play styles than the fact that the majority of missions spawn NPCs well under 60km.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Inir Ishtori
Perkone
Caldari State
#48 - 2017-01-31 21:38:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Inir Ishtori
Patrice Macmahon wrote:


[...]Damn the Cap Boosters - Blasters. - But at this point why are you not running a Vindicator?



For obvious reasons: better damage projection even out of bastion, better tank and cap management, ECM resistance(very important imo), much shorter cooldown on MJD, great range on tractor beams and of course a much larger cargohold for all those cap boosters Blink

edit:

Looked at both ships again, I guess I should have compared blaster Kronos vs rail Vindi. You are right, dps-wise Vindi looks like a better ship on paper(with 4 sentries), but imo ECM resistance is a really great trait to Marauders. That DPS advantage disappers pretty fast when dampened, ECM'd, under effect of tracking disruptors or when your drones get you full stage aggro and you have to move around.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#49 - 2017-01-31 23:51:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Here are the actual numbers. Short of running an Officer fit, with full V skills you'll at best be able to squeeze maybe another 1-2% total DPS out with a fourth Faction magstab. Excluding costs (you almost need to run rails with Federation Navy AM), both blasters and rails do roughly the same damage out to 60km. Keep in-mind that blasters have better tracking, so they will get penetrations, smashes and wrecks more frequently than rails. Also, with a fast cycle time - on the off-chance they do miss it's easily recouped. Damage below excludes drone damage.

Kronos Blaster
• 4x Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L
• 3x Faction Magstab, Hybrid Burst Aerator II, +6 implants
• 1155 DPS @20km; 1100 DPS @30km; 1050 DPS @40km; 900 DPS @50km; 750 DPS @60km

• 4x Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
• 3x Faction Magstab, Hybrid Burst Aerator II, +6 implants
• 1617 DPS @15km; 1400 DPS @20km; 700 DPS @30km
.....

Kronos Rail
• 4x 425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
• 3x Faction Magstab, Hybrid Burst Aerator II, +6 implants
• 997 DPS @40km; 950 DPS @50km; 900 DPS @60km; 600 DPS @100km

• 4x 425mm Railgun II, Federation Navy AM (4x cost)
• 3x Faction Magstab, Hybrid Burst Aerator II, +6 implants
• 982 DPS @60km; 950 DPS @80km; 840 DPS @100km

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#50 - 2017-02-01 00:02:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Some Kronos fitting tips (and indications you're doing it wrong)...
• Not running a Faction or Deadspace MWD
• Not running at least 2 tracking computers (3 is preferable)
• Running capacitor rigs, cap batteries, cap boosters or a cap stable fit
• Running a stasis web, grappler or target painter instead of a 3rd tracking computer
• Running any kind of tracking enhancer
• Running more than three armor tank modules, including a large Deadspace armor repairer
• Warp speed of less than 4.0 AU/s and align time of less than 8.05s
• Less than 1150+ DPS with blasters or 950+ DPS with railguns

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#51 - 2017-02-01 17:09:40 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I can blap frigates from 20-80km without issue. Once they get below 20km though, that's drone territory. Blasters do not struggle at 5km - so I'm not sure where you get that impression. They can strike out to 40km without much of a DPS penalty and hitting targets at 75km isn't a problem, either (although with a damage reduction).

As I indicated, the vast majority of NPCs will in fact close range to some extent (some even to point-blank range). This is advantageous for blasters and less so for rails (particularly for 425mm rails which have poor tracking characteristics below 25km). Between a range of 40-50km blasters will outperform rails. Beyond that, rails certainly have an advantage. But it has less to do with play styles than the fact that the majority of missions spawn NPCs well under 60km.

With rails I can blap frigates at 35km and with a luck I can as close as at 20km too, thank you very much.

Regarding struggling I have been talking about the other end. Nulls are great until about 50km, then damage drops. You still can kill battleships at 70-80km but it takes noticeably longer. And no, while you have extra tracking you are in deep falloff so you don't have as many wrecking or penetrating shots.

I'm not reading PYFA/EFT stats. I'm talking about mission completion times. Call me incompetent, but under my command the difference of time when using blasters and rails wasn't very dramatic (but yes, blasters had slight advantage). It wasn't much bigger than that caused by difference due to having spawn variances, landing position variances, different warping times, etc.

Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Some Kronos fitting tips (and indications you're doing it wrong)...
[....]

Well, I could stand behind that.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#52 - 2017-02-01 19:27:57 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
With rails I can blap frigates at 35km and with a luck I can as close as at 20km too, thank you very much.

Regarding struggling I have been talking about the other end. Nulls are great until about 50km, then damage drops. You still can kill battleships at 70-80km but it takes noticeably longer. And no, while you have extra tracking you are in deep falloff so you don't have as many wrecking or penetrating shots.

I'm not reading PYFA/EFT stats. I'm talking about mission completion times. Call me incompetent, but under my command the difference of time when using blasters and rails wasn't very dramatic (but yes, blasters had slight advantage). It wasn't much bigger than that caused by difference due to having spawn variances, landing position variances, different warping times, etc.

I'm not saying you can't use rails - or that rails aren't effective on the Kronos. What I'm trying to get across is that the majority of missions involve NPC spawns at ranges less than 60km. In addition, on these missions NPCs have a tendency to gravitate towards the player as opposed to moving away. These are conditions advantageous to blasters.

With respect to tracking, what you may not fully appreciate is that you can move and shoot with blasters at relatively high speeds and still enjoy excellent DPS. This is not the case with rails where you must remain basically stationary for the most part.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#53 - 2017-02-01 20:21:45 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

I'm not saying you can't use rails - or that rails aren't effective on the Kronos. What I'm trying to get across is that the majority of missions involve NPC spawns at ranges less than 60km. In addition, on these missions NPCs have a tendency to gravitate towards the player as opposed to moving away. These are conditions advantageous to blasters.

I'm getting the feeling that we both defend the same thesis, just from different angles. Mine is that BOTH rails and blasters are viable guns for running missions with Kronos. Most rat battleships spawn and/or orbit at ranges from 20km to 60km so either choice of gun will work. Which in itself is quite a thing comparing to ACs-or-GTFO-Vargur or Tach-Paladin (I know pulses but IMO they are situational and I can't fly Golem so I can't comment).

Quote:

With respect to tracking, what you may not fully appreciate is that you can move and shoot with blasters at relatively high speeds and still enjoy excellent DPS. This is not the case with rails where you must remain basically stationary for the most part.

Well, with rails you can afford not moving at all. One variable less to take care of. This is the main reason it's my weapon of choice.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#54 - 2017-02-01 20:30:05 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
I'm getting the feeling that we both defend the same thesis, just from different angles. Mine is that BOTH rails and blasters are viable guns for running missions with Kronos. Most rat battleships spawn and/or orbit at ranges from 20km to 60km so either choice of gun will work. Which in itself is quite a thing comparing to ACs-or-GTFO-Vargur or Tach-Paladin (I know pulses but IMO they are situational and I can't fly Golem so I can't comment).

Quite possibly. I did recently switch over to rails and found that the mission clear times for me dropped. I don't know if it was my skills (all V) or fit, but in the missions I normally run they just seemed underwhelming. Hence why I switched back to blasters and immediately noticed an improvement (particularly with the 'fun' factor).

One minor advantage with blasters is that you can run the cheap Null and Void ammunition. You almost have to run Federation AM with rails.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#55 - 2017-02-01 21:09:55 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I did recently switch over to rails and found that the mission clear times for me dropped. I don't know if it was my skills (all V) or fit, but in the missions I normally run they just seemed underwhelming. Hence why I switched back to blasters and immediately noticed an improvement (particularly with the 'fun' factor).

Out of curiosity, how much dropped for you? To me it was if certain mission took 17-18 minutes with blasters, with rails it was 20-21. But it could vary wildly. A few missions actually took longer with blasters (Gone Berserk if memory serves).

As for the "fun" factor. It's very subjective, personal. I used to enjoy chasing reddies back and forth but then I got tired of having to think in terms of two or three ships to pop ahead.

Quote:

One minor advantage with blasters is that you can run the cheap Null and Void ammunition. You almost have to run Federation AM with rails.

I would say that if the cost of ammo is your concern then you are running ship and missions wrong. But I don't think you're running either wrong so I will say that it should not be your concern. :) No, really. Do calculate or measure how many missions can you run on a given batch of ammo, how much money you make out of those missions and then compare this value to the price of said batch. Even if faction AM goes out as the most expensive, which I doubt, it's still peanuts in the grand scheme.

Speaking of, even when I was flying blaster fit Kronos I still used AM a lot. I don't remember exact thresholds but it used to be Null far and AM close. Void only for structures or when I had web or when doing transversal trickery.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#56 - 2017-02-01 21:51:14 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
Out of curiosity, how much dropped for you? To me it was if certain mission took 17-18 minutes with blasters, with rails it was 20-21. But it could vary wildly. A few missions actually took longer with blasters (Gone Berserk if memory serves).

As for the "fun" factor. It's very subjective, personal. I used to enjoy chasing reddies back and forth but then I got tired of having to think in terms of two or three ships to pop ahead.

Probably not more than a few minutes. I tend to skip over missions like Assault or Worlds Collide that really aren't conducive to blasters. I prefer missions like Spy, Damsel or Beserk. I agree the 'fun' factor is certainly subjective, but I find I'm enjoying guns a lot more than I ever did missiles.

Quote:
I would say that if the cost of ammo is your concern then you are running ship and missions wrong. But I don't think you're running either wrong so I will say that it should not be your concern. :) No, really. Do calculate or measure how many missions can you run on a given batch of ammo, how much money you make out of those missions and then compare this value to the price of said batch. Even if faction AM goes out as the most expensive, which I doubt, it's still peanuts in the grand scheme.

Speaking of, even when I was flying blaster fit Kronos I still used AM a lot. I don't remember exact thresholds but it used to be Null far and AM close. Void only for structures or when I had web or when doing transversal trickery.

Well, in fairness I did say it was a minor point. Once you move into any Marauder your cost of operation goes down significantly, so you're right in that it's peanuts in the grand scale of things.

I do like only having to run two types of ammunition, though (both cheap). I use Null L almost exclusively, switching to Void L for structures, Federation, Mercenaries and the occasional Angel that ventures too close. I get a lot of use out of my MWD so closing to optimal range for either typically isn't an issue.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#57 - 2017-02-01 22:32:49 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I tend to skip over missions like Assault or Worlds Collide that really aren't conducive to blasters. I prefer missions like Spy, Damsel or Beserk.

Funny you mentioned Assault and WC because they are one of the best missions, bounty wise. :) And while I would recommend against attempting Assault with blasters, Worlds Collide is quite doable. For entry pocket you need a propulsion anyway and subsequent ones are either good or acceptable, in terms of rats distance.

Quote:

I do like only having to run two types of ammunition, though (both cheap). I use Null L almost exclusively, switching to Void L for structures, Federation, Mercenaries and the occasional Angel that ventures too close. I get a lot of use out of my MWD so closing to optimal range for either typically isn't an issue.

Fair enough. Whether to shoot with Void or AM up close is just a personal preference.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#58 - 2017-02-01 22:36:05 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
Funny you mentioned Assault and WC because they are one of the best missions, bounty wise. :) And while I would recommend against attempting Assault with blasters, Worlds Collide is quite doable. For entry pocket you need a propulsion anyway and subsequent ones are either good or acceptable, in terms of rats distance.

Yes, there are definitely good bounties to be had. But I just find it takes too long to run. My end goal is the "Enemy" series where you can snag upwards of 200-million.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Inir Ishtori
Perkone
Caldari State
#59 - 2017-02-02 01:10:48 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Some Kronos fitting tips (and indications you're doing it wrong)...
• Not running a Faction or Deadspace MWD
• Not running at least 2 tracking computers (3 is preferable)
• Running capacitor rigs, cap batteries, cap boosters or a cap stable fit
• Running a stasis web, grappler or target painter instead of a 3rd tracking computer
• Running any kind of tracking enhancer
• Running more than three armor tank modules, including a large Deadspace armor repairer
• Warp speed of less than 4.0 AU/s and align time of less than 8.05s
• Less than 1150+ DPS with blasters or 950+ DPS with railguns


These tips are somewhat strange.

So you don't fit a TE and maybe just fit only 3 Magstabs as hinted in a post above, but go with 3 TC. Now you get worse damage and damage projection than the fit I suggested - and need to pay attention to the capacitor on top of that.

Now you want great warp speed AND shorter align time. Unless you go for an Ascendacy set you'll have to drop Burst Aerator rig, which is quite a DPS loss, and fit some agility mod in the lows.

Therefore I wonder: what does your Kronos fit looks like?
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#60 - 2017-02-02 02:09:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
* 4x Neutron Blaster Cannon II
* Gist X-Type 500MN MWD
* 3x Tracking Computer II, optimal range script
* 3x Faction Magnetic Field Stabilizers
* Damage Control II
* 2x Intertial Stabilizer II
* Core X-Type Large Armor Repairer
* T2 Aerator Rig, T2 Hyperspacial Rig
* High-Grade Ascendancy 1-4, Migrade Ascendancy 5, WS-816
* Ogdin, EM-805, +6 gunnery implants

V skills on everything. I could get about 1-2% more DPS with a 4th mag stab, but I prefer another 1.5s off my align times. Just over 8s to align and a warp speed of 4.29 AU/s. I've yet to run out of capacitor and I don't have to really close attention to it. I can actually shield tank quite a few missions...

If we're comparing this to your fit, I get the same DPS (+6 implants for me) with greater range since I have 3 range-scripted tracking computers (76km in Bastion). So actually more DPS and more maneuverability. But to each their own.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.