These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Why do people seem to hate ECM in particular of all the Ewar types?

Author
Taurean Eltanin
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#61 - 2017-01-31 09:21:52 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Taurean Eltanin wrote:
Because there is no counter-play.


1. Bullshit. Anyone making this claim has never used ECM and/or never tried to understand how it works.

2. ECM doesn't always work. It's RNG. Everything else always works.


I'm having trouble understanding you.

First, you seem to suggest that there are actions that a player can take to mitigate the effect of a successful jam once the jam has landed, although you don't actually mention what these actions might be.

But then you suggest that ECM is in fact based on RNG, which was the point that has been made repeatedly in this thread. So it looks like you start off disagreeing with me (without giving any reasons for doing so), but then end up pretty much saying what I said. Only with more profanity.

Care to clarify?



If you like reading about low sec piracy or wormhole pvp, you might enjoy my blog.

Inxentas Ultramar
Orde van Oranje Nassau
Evictus.
#62 - 2017-01-31 14:27:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Inxentas Ultramar
I don't like ECM effect for a simple reason. ECm is like a weapon that shoots potential non-participation. Whenever I am hit with a jam I feel my gameplay experience has been reduced to either a wait-and-cross-your-fingers game (fleet) or wait-untill-all-bars-are-red-and-die game (solo). I don't mind losing ships and I don't mind being penalized for losing at rock-paper-scissors, but when a fight consists of being jammed 100% of the time I am just not having fun. I understand that ECM and damps deepen PVP on a strategic fleet level, but the mechanics involved can be extremely frustrating for the individual player dealing with it.

ECM is like marriage. Something everybody validates but secretly despises for it's unfair, debilitating nature.
Neuntausend
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#63 - 2017-01-31 14:52:36 UTC
Taurean Eltanin wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Taurean Eltanin wrote:
Because there is no counter-play.


1. Bullshit. Anyone making this claim has never used ECM and/or never tried to understand how it works.

2. ECM doesn't always work. It's RNG. Everything else always works.


I'm having trouble understanding you.

First, you seem to suggest that there are actions that a player can take to mitigate the effect of a successful jam once the jam has landed, although you don't actually mention what these actions might be.

But then you suggest that ECM is in fact based on RNG, which was the point that has been made repeatedly in this thread. So it looks like you start off disagreeing with me (without giving any reasons for doing so), but then end up pretty much saying what I said. Only with more profanity.

Care to clarify?

It's obvious: The counter to ECM is being lucky! Learn to RNG, noob!
Hakawai
State War Academy
Caldari State
#64 - 2017-01-31 17:18:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakawai
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
I don't like ECM effect for a simple reason. ECm is like a weapon that shoots potential non-participation. Whenever I am hit with a jam I feel my gameplay experience has been reduced to either a wait-and-cross-your-fingers game (fleet) or wait-untill-all-bars-are-red-and-die game (solo). I don't mind losing ships and I don't mind being penalized for losing at rock-paper-scissors, but when a fight consists of being jammed 100% of the time I am just not having fun. I understand that ECM and damps deepen PVP on a strategic fleet level, but the mechanics involved can be extremely frustrating for the individual player dealing with it.

ECM is like marriage. Something everybody validates but secretly despises for it's unfair, debilitating nature.

This is a version of the arguments used by people who are the targets of griefers.

Of course there aren't all that many griefers, but they are indirectly supported in their behavior by the passive acceptance of the majority of experienced players, who are presumably completely happy with gameplay that "turns off" other players' ability to to do anything interesting or useful.

I think you're fighting a losing battle - the majority view is that EVE should have more effective ECM, not less.

I really like the idea of a "weapon that shoots non-participation" though. There should definitely be a module for this - perhaps a long-range "bumping" module would be a good first test.
Maekchu
Doomheim
#65 - 2017-01-31 17:28:31 UTC
Hakawai wrote:
the majority view is that EVE should have more effective ECM, not less.

Actually, I think the majority view ECM to be fine at its current level.

Sure, it can be annoying to get ECM'd when roaming around solo or in a small gank. But one can take measures to diminish the chances of taking engagements against people with ECM. Just like miners can take measures to decrease the chance of getting suicide ganked.

But miners don't. They prefer to come to the forums and whine.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#66 - 2017-01-31 18:03:39 UTC
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
ECM is like marriage. Something everybody validates but secretly despises for it's unfair, debilitating nature.


Not really like marriage. When its debilitating, its usually one side crying but the other laughing. Shocked
In real life when you cry and the other is laughing, its divorce and she got house and children. Pirate
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#67 - 2017-01-31 19:19:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Khan Wrenth
While people love to tout the line of "ECM is worse than other EWAR types because there's no counterplay", the fact is there is very few realistic things you can do to counter other EWAR types while in the heat of battle. And some of the same things you do to counter those other EWAR types are the same things you'd do to counter ECM, so ECM is not unique or special in that regard.

"That regard"

I emphasize that because ECM is a bit different than other types of EWAR, and I believe that the problem is in what it does to a victim, not what counterplay may or may not be functional in the game. Let's break it down in a very simple format.

If you are webbed- you can still do pretty much anything except move. You can shoot enemies, point, neut, etc.

If you are pointed - you can still slowboat. You can shoot enemies, point, neut, etc.

If you are tracking disrupted - no matter what people may say about manual piloting, you're not likely to make use of any guns. What few hits you may get are either dumb luck from the enemy not doing basic piloting, or just luck with the RNG hit chances. Here's the kicker though, did they bring the right type of tracking disruption? If they bring the wrong type of weapon disruption, their EWAR is useless. Even if they do disrupt you, you can move, sic drones, neut, point, web, etc.

If you are target pointed - you take some more damage. You can still do anything you want; there's no hostile action preventing you from doing anything.

If you are neuted - neuting is more of the long game when it comes to engagements. The prevalence of cap booster setups in PvP means that you're not likely to deprive someone of cap quickly. That's why they call it pressure, because they're basically nudging your cap supply and hoping to eat up your cap faster than you can boost it or that you run out of boosters. While under neut pressure you can still do everything you want, just micromanage your cap, hope you have enough boosters, etc. Even if your cap runs dry, you can shoot projectile guns, missiles, sic drones, and slowboat.

If you are damped - well this might be the most universally hated EWAR type because it's universally effective. It may not be ECM but it'll deprive you of combat ability all the same. Being able to get in close to brawl is very situation-dependent and pulling range to try to out-range someone actively dampening your lock range is kinda ironic, if it's even an option. While damped, you can still move about freely, but your combat options will be limited to whatever pittance of lock range you still have. Heck, why even bother with turret disruption when you can cut the enemy's ability to lock down to 5km? His 40km optimal range doesn't mean anything if he can't lock you anyway.

If you are ECM'd - you can sit and regen some cap, move about freely, check Twitter, listen to some voicemails.

So you see, most of those EWAR effects have things you can do, even if not "counterplay" to the direct action taking place (as in, if you're turret disrupted, you can still point and web a target). ECM prevents you from doing anything. In fact I think it was put very succinctly by someone just a bit earlier, so I'll quote directly.

Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
ECm is like a weapon that shoots potential non-participation

However I wanted to illustrate that point as much as possible, hence the long post.

Point, web, neut, damp are all universally effective. Even if they don't completely cripple your combat ability, they will hinder you greatly. Their counterplay modules also don't do much to stave off those effects - by design I believe. People can holler about it from the top of the hills all they want, but a bonused EWAR used against you is going to be much more effective than however many modules you stacked up and gimped your fit to get on your ship. Those counters mitigate but can never fully eliminate hostile influence over your systems.

ECM, by contrast, is very weird. It's binary pass/fail, rather than a measured effect. It's counterplay module offers no advantage in battle aside from the counter (as opposed to something like a tracking computer which was already providing you with turret bonuses). And that pass/fail effect is brutally different than the other modules.

So, ECM feels very powerful, but it's also very, very finicky. There's also many ships with high sensor strength that makes attempts to jam them an exercise in futility (*cough*guardian chains*cough) for how few actually land. And as was stated earlier, jam ships tend to be paper thin. Overall, I think ECM is in a very odd spot yes, but I think it's in a balanced spot nonetheless. I wouldn't mind the jams being changed over to 10 seconds a shot, and perhaps sensor dampeners being nerfed in regards to their "targeting range" attribute to perhaps emphasize their use with scan resolution scripts in combination with ECMs to deprive enemy ships of lock-ons even longer after the ECM jam ends.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#68 - 2017-02-01 00:09:31 UTC
Bertok Francis wrote:
I have been primaried by cruisers that had other cruisers to shoot at because of it


No you've been primaried because griffins, blackbirds, falcons and widows are usually the squishiest ships on the field so you get rid of them first.
Neuntausend
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#69 - 2017-02-01 00:46:16 UTC
Khan Wrenth wrote:
While people love to tout the line of "ECM is worse than other EWAR types because there's no counterplay", the fact is there is very few realistic things you can do to counter other EWAR types while in the heat of battle. And some of the same things you do to counter those other EWAR types are the same things you'd do to counter ECM, so ECM is not unique or special in that regard.

Even that is not true, though. Say somebody webs you ... well, web them back. Or damp them, so they can't kite you anymore. Or suck them dry with your neuts. Or blow them to bits with your guns.

Say, somebody damps you. Fly up to him with heat on your prop, maybe do a couple slingshot shenanigans. That will pretty much make the damp useless. And then you rip him to shreds, which will shut off the damps.

Somebody paints you .... keep moving, to decrease imcoming damage, boost shields more often to mitigate the increased damage and concentrate on getting DPS off the field before your cap runs dry. If you can catch him, kill him. That will shut off the painter.

Somebody tracking-disrupts you - reduce transversal, or get closer, so you can still hit, even if disrupted. overheat your tracking computer (that is useful even if you are not getting targeted with a specific module, unlike ECCM) to counter the tracking disruption to a degree. And then kill the guy, which will shut off the disruptor.

Somebody neuts you - neut them back - that will shut off their neuts. Or boost cap - that will let you ignore their neuts to a degree. Or kill them, which will shut off the neuts too. Or have a cap battery (that is useful even if you are not getting targeted with a specific module, unlike ECCM), that will let you ignore at least a couple of neuts.

Those are all realistic, and those are all counterplay in the sense that you can react when the guy activates the module and by reacting counter the effect, ignore the effect or even make it go away. Yes there are situations where a scramweb-kiter may just outspeed and outrange you and there's nothing you can do. Or the same for a very fast range-damp-kiter. But those are just the usual rock beats scissors type situations, and there are many ships and fittings those tactics may not work on. The only rock that beats the ECM-scissors is luck.

Somebody jams you - you are a brick. You can look longingly at your guns and neuts, you can overheat your prop and ... bump into the jammer. And you can wait and hope that the next cycle doesn't hit.
Van Doe
#70 - 2017-02-01 01:20:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Van Doe
Neuntausend wrote:
Khan Wrenth wrote:
While people love to tout the line of "ECM is worse than other EWAR types because there's no counterplay", the fact is there is very few realistic things you can do to counter other EWAR types while in the heat of battle. And some of the same things you do to counter those other EWAR types are the same things you'd do to counter ECM, so ECM is not unique or special in that regard.

Even that is not true, though. Say somebody webs you ... well, web them back. Or damp them, so they can't kite you anymore. Or suck them dry with your neuts. Or blow them to bits with your guns.

Say, somebody damps you. Fly up to him with heat on your prop, maybe do a couple slingshot shenanigans. That will pretty much make the damp useless. And then you rip him to shreds, which will shut off the damps.

Somebody paints you .... keep moving, to decrease imcoming damage, boost shields more often to mitigate the increased damage and concentrate on getting DPS off the field before your cap runs dry. If you can catch him, kill him. That will shut off the painter.

Somebody tracking-disrupts you - reduce transversal, or get closer, so you can still hit, even if disrupted. overheat your tracking computer (that is useful even if you are not getting targeted with a specific module, unlike ECCM) to counter the tracking disruption to a degree. And then kill the guy, which will shut off the disruptor.

Somebody neuts you - neut them back - that will shut off their neuts. Or boost cap - that will let you ignore their neuts to a degree. Or kill them, which will shut off the neuts too. Or have a cap battery (that is useful even if you are not getting targeted with a specific module, unlike ECCM), that will let you ignore at least a couple of neuts.

Those are all realistic, and those are all counterplay in the sense that you can react when the guy activates the module and by reacting counter the effect, ignore the effect or even make it go away. Yes there are situations where a scramweb-kiter may just outspeed and outrange you and there's nothing you can do. Or the same for a very fast range-damp-kiter. But those are just the usual rock beats scissors type situations, and there are many ships and fittings those tactics may not work on. The only rock that beats the ECM-scissors is luck.

Somebody jams you - you are a brick. You can look longingly at your guns and neuts, you can overheat your prop and ... bump into the jammer. And you can wait and hope that the next cycle doesn't hit.

Counters for ecm
1. Ecm them back
2. Get faster lock neut them
3. Assign drones lean back and giggle.
4. Sensor samp them
5. Fly ship they have no rascal ecm for
6. Alpha them

The trick to conter ecm is sensor boosting as soon you get 1 lock they are fugt

I'm not trolling, I create content for everyone to enjoy. afk cloaky in a system near you while posting in this forum.

Hakawai
State War Academy
Caldari State
#71 - 2017-02-01 02:19:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakawai
Maekchu wrote:
Hakawai wrote:
the majority view is that EVE should have more effective ECM, not less.

Actually, I think the majority view ECM to be fine at its current level.

Sure, it can be annoying to get ECM'd when roaming around solo or in a small gank. But one can take measures to diminish the chances of taking engagements against people with ECM. Just like miners can take measures to decrease the chance of getting suicide ganked.

But miners don't. They prefer to come to the forums and whine.

It's a matter of consistency.

The majority is in favor of griefing, which has exactly the (supposedly) negative effects that the ECM-whiners here claim are bad about ECM. It follows that the majority is also in favor of ECM, and like griefing, they want to see more ECM, and for it to be harder to counter.

BTW - don't assume that my suggestion of a ranged bumping module has anything to do with mining. EVE players aren't just supporters of CODE (and anyway you could argue CODE are honest blackmailers rather than griefers) .

A long-range bumping module would be helpful for many other kinds of griefing too - the point is that it can't be countered. ECM should be the same: there should be a skill that lets you get the probability of ECM taking effect to 100%.
Valkin Mordirc
#72 - 2017-02-01 02:20:40 UTC
Van Doe wrote:


Counters for ecm
1. Ecm them back
2. Get faster lock neut them
3. Assign drones lean back and giggle.
4. Sensor samp them
5. Fly ship they have no rascal ecm for
6. Alpha them

The trick to conter ecm is sensor boosting as soon you get 1 lock they are fugt



1. Only if you have ECM to counter back with. Also your ECM may miss and your opponents to hit due to RNG fuckery.

2. Why not alpha them instead of neut? Doesn't make any sense.

3. If you have drones, and if you're fighting a kitsune good luck catching it 40km out burning at 2.5k base speed of MWD, As soon as the pilot see's the drones moving towards him he'll just ping out.

4. Again why if you could just alpha them? Also 3 non bonused damps will only bring a kitsune down to 30km, so you basically need a keres to damp out the ECM and even then the Kitsune can just ECM the Keres before it gets damped out.

5. What about multispectrum? And any decent ECM pilot will keep spare ECM in the cargo hold so he can switch out if he needs to.

6. Literally your points 2 4 and 6 are the same. Lock them first. So your list is honesly only 3 steps. All of require specific set ups to counter it, or based on RNG.

Which due to Painters, TD's and Damps that can be countered by changing how you fly your ships, and not needing to fit a certain mod, or bring a certain ship to counter, makes ECM the oddball of the group.
#DeleteTheWeak
Marcus Binchiette
Federal Vanguard
#73 - 2017-02-01 03:08:21 UTC
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
I don't like ECM effect for a simple reason. ECm is like a weapon that shoots potential non-participation. Whenever I am hit with a jam I feel my gameplay experience has been reduced to either a wait-and-cross-your-fingers game (fleet) or wait-untill-all-bars-are-red-and-die game (solo). I don't mind losing ships and I don't mind being penalized for losing at rock-paper-scissors, but when a fight consists of being jammed 100% of the time I am just not having fun. I understand that ECM and damps deepen PVP on a strategic fleet level, but the mechanics involved can be extremely frustrating for the individual player dealing with it.

ECM is like marriage. Something everybody validates but secretly despises for it's unfair, debilitating nature.


All weapons shoot potential non-participation. I shoot bullets. You die. Therein begin the non-participation. ECM modules take module slots, CPU, PG, and capacitor energy from the enemy ship. Having one more ECM boat on the enemy team is one less DPS ship shooting at you. Or one less Logi undoing your damage.


Stop crying because the enemy is using effective weapons. Learn to use effective weapons of your own and counter theirs and you will profit.
Marcus Binchiette
Federal Vanguard
#74 - 2017-02-01 03:17:35 UTC
Valkin Mordirc wrote:


1. Only if you have ECM to counter back with. Also your ECM may miss and your opponents to hit due to RNG fuckery.

2. Why not alpha them instead of neut? Doesn't make any sense.

3. If you have drones, and if you're fighting a kitsune good luck catching it 40km out burning at 2.5k base speed of MWD, As soon as the pilot see's the drones moving towards him he'll just ping out.

4. Again why if you could just alpha them? Also 3 non bonused damps will only bring a kitsune down to 30km, so you basically need a keres to damp out the ECM and even then the Kitsune can just ECM the Keres before it gets damped out.

5. What about multispectrum? And any decent ECM pilot will keep spare ECM in the cargo hold so he can switch out if he needs to.

6. Literally your points 2 4 and 6 are the same. Lock them first. So your list is honesly only 3 steps. All of require specific set ups to counter it, or based on RNG.

Which due to Painters, TD's and Damps that can be countered by changing how you fly your ships, and not needing to fit a certain mod, or bring a certain ship to counter, makes ECM the oddball of the group.


1. Get ECM

2. Because ECM modules are very hungry. Energy warfare is very effective against them.

3. If he ping's out, then he's not ECM'ing you.

4. Use tech II damps with range script, and enhancement modules, and a specialised ship.

5. If they have Multi-S, then expect to get jammed out less often.

6. So are yours

7. there is no 7.

8. ECM is a specific setup. It follows that all the counters should also be specific.
Elmund Egivand
Sebestacny Circle
#75 - 2017-02-01 03:25:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Don't forget to stay at deep falloff of the ECM dudes when shooting at his friends in order to set the RNG against the jammer. Also, set all your drones on the ECM as soon as the opportunity presents itself to force him to bugger off the field.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Valkin Mordirc
#76 - 2017-02-01 06:12:45 UTC
Marcus Binchiette wrote:



1. Get ECM

2. Because ECM modules are very hungry. Energy warfare is very effective against them.

3. If he ping's out, then he's not ECM'ing you.

4. Use tech II damps with range script, and enhancement modules, and a specialised ship.

5. If they have Multi-S, then expect to get jammed out less often.

6. So are yours

7. there is no 7.

8. ECM is a specific setup. It follows that all the counters should also be specific.


If a Target pings out, he'll come back in at range ready to jam you again. It doesn't remove the threat of ECM, it only delays it.

So to reiterate.


Quote:
Which due to Painters, TD's and Damps that can be countered by changing how you fly your ships, and not needing to fit a certain mod, or bring a certain ship to counter, makes ECM the oddball of the group.


Why does the ECM line a Ewar need to have a specific setup to counter when all other forms of Ewar don't?

Also good luck neuting a Kitsune or a Falcon/Rook with a standard Small Medium or Large neut.


weren't you the one saying that people should bring FoF Missiles to counter ECM?
#DeleteTheWeak
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#77 - 2017-02-01 16:16:49 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
Even that is not true, though. Say somebody webs you ... well, web them back. Or damp them, so they can't kite you anymore. Or suck them dry with your neuts. Or blow them to bits with your guns.

Say, somebody damps you. Fly up to him with heat on your prop, maybe do a couple slingshot shenanigans. That will pretty much make the damp useless. And then you rip him to shreds, which will shut off the damps.

Somebody paints you .... keep moving, to decrease imcoming damage, boost shields more often to mitigate the increased damage and concentrate on getting DPS off the field before your cap runs dry. If you can catch him, kill him. That will shut off the painter.

Somebody tracking-disrupts you - reduce transversal, or get closer, so you can still hit, even if disrupted. overheat your tracking computer (that is useful even if you are not getting targeted with a specific module, unlike ECCM) to counter the tracking disruption to a degree. And then kill the guy, which will shut off the disruptor.

Somebody neuts you - neut them back - that will shut off their neuts. Or boost cap - that will let you ignore their neuts to a degree. Or kill them, which will shut off the neuts too. Or have a cap battery (that is useful even if you are not getting targeted with a specific module, unlike ECCM), that will let you ignore at least a couple of neuts.

Those are all realistic, and those are all counterplay in the sense that you can react when the guy activates the module and by reacting counter the effect, ignore the effect or even make it go away. Yes there are situations where a scramweb-kiter may just outspeed and outrange you and there's nothing you can do. Or the same for a very fast range-damp-kiter. But those are just the usual rock beats scissors type situations, and there are many ships and fittings those tactics may not work on. The only rock that beats the ECM-scissors is luck.

Somebody jams you - you are a brick. You can look longingly at your guns and neuts, you can overheat your prop and ... bump into the jammer. And you can wait and hope that the next cycle doesn't hit.


And I already pointed out or refuted all of these points.

Damp - situation-dependent and might even be counterproductive. If you have rails and you get into brawling range, you're at a heavy disadvantage. Maybe he is too, or maybe he fit blasters and that was his plan all along, but don't pretend that flying straight into a cluster of enemies is always a good or recommended idea.

Paint - I said it wasn't even that big of a deal. Yes your assertion in this case is accurate, but it's also common knowledge and every bit a part of normal combat piloting regardless of EWAR but especially in the event of hostile EWAR. So, it shouldn't need to be said. Okay if you want brownie points for summoning Captain Obvious, you can have 'em, but nothing about this statement is a revelation.

Disrupt - already addressed this. In combat all pilots are constantly moving and changing direction and speed. Good luck getting transversal down long enough to get viable hits enough to be effective. I already said it's possible in the event of bad enemy piloting, but don't count on it. Yes, you can probably get tranversal down for a few seconds, but you're not going to keep it because the enemy pilot is going to change direction shortly. A few glancing blows will only make a difference in fringe cases, and again, I'm talking about more general combat and not fringe cases and situations.

Nuets - may be a common module to carry, but not every ship has the spare highslot or fitting. I was giving more general advice for a theoretical fleet ship which might have tank, local reps, a cap booster, etc. But if you have neuts, you should have neuted him first. If you're getting hit with neuts before you can bring your own to bear, then you're likely getting hit by a bonused hull or a larger sized neut carried on a bigger hull, so counter-neuting is probably not going to work out unless it's a fringe circumstance where a dozen of your teammates all also have neuts to contribute. In which case, ganging up on a primary target is again common knowledge and tactics. I even pointed out that many PvP setups have cap boosters, so again, you're treading territory already refuted or covered by my earlier post.

The realistic counters I already listed and there's nothing new you're bringing to the table here.
Yarosara Ruil
Haighare Pirates
#78 - 2017-02-01 16:33:23 UTC
The current problem with ECM is its all or nothing nature.

Either it connects and disables all targeting, or it doesn't work at all. No middle ground, no compromise. A single ship can lock down another ship, no matter the size, if the ECM connects.

Now, it would make sense if ECM only removed target locks and reduced the number of target locks you can have at a given time (and with enough ECM pointing at you, that number would go down to 0 no matter what ship you used).

Right now we have four vastly useless skills working as a defense system against ECM. And that's just silly.
Wanda Fayne
#79 - 2017-02-01 16:45:48 UTC
Caldari need ECM because their PvP ships suck (outside of RLM Caracals and Cerb fleets).
Take away ECM and their empire dies.P

"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
Yarosara Ruil
Haighare Pirates
#80 - 2017-02-01 17:02:41 UTC
Wanda Fayne wrote:
Caldari need ECM because their PvP ships suck (outside of RLM Caracals and Cerb fleets).
Take away ECM and their empire dies.P


Good thing we have the Guristas Master Race ships then.