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Bounty System Discussion

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Lugh Crow-Slave
#21 - 2017-02-01 15:31:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
he is what you do

make them contracts

in the contract you can set

  • how much you pay per kill

  • min value of kill for payout

  • who can accept the contract

  • total isk pool for bounty




do this and bounty hunting can finally be made into a profession in eve

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#22 - 2017-02-01 15:47:00 UTC
Jennifer Starblaze wrote:
Everytime they come up, we get entertained by some Person claiming the current System is broken and then present a System which can be abused so easily that even a chimp can figure out in 5 seconds how to abuse it.

Depending on point of view the current system is broken or we would not have a continuing string of topics asking for a bounty system overhaul. On the other hand there are those that claim the current bounty system is not broken because they want to be able to place a worthless bounty on anyone in the game.

Hello Meow Kitty wrote:
Alts are the main and underlying issue as to why it will never work. If anything it should be removed.

This seems to be the basis for most arguments against changing the bounty system, and yet it would be extremely easy to set up a bounty system that CANNOT be farmed for ISK by using alts or friends. Remove the full amount of the bounty from the wallet of the character at the time they place the bounty and the profit from killing your own aspect is completely removed.
Sure character A could place a 100 million ISK bounty on character B, but in the process character A has 100 million ISK removed from their wallet. When your character C kills your character B and collects the bounty you as a player simply get you 100 million ISK back, no one has profited because you could simply transfer the ISK from A to C and avoid the whole bounty hassle.

Now if character A and B are controlled by the same person and C is controlled by a different player we actually have what we want and that is a system where players can profit by collecting bounties. And yet because A is required to put up the entire amount of the bounty when they place that bounty we are not creating ISK out of thin air we are simply moving it from one character to another.
Frammasch Durin
Outer Wilds Ventures
#23 - 2017-02-01 18:16:47 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Now if character A and B are controlled by the same person and C is controlled by a different player we actually have what we want and that is a system where players can profit by collecting bounties.


And if character B and C are controlled by the same person, character A's bounty is pointless as player B/C just earned 100M instead of getting punished.

Also, the bounty amount is already removed from character As wallet at the moment of placing the bounty, so this idea does not actually change anything...
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#24 - 2017-02-01 19:06:17 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Jennifer Starblaze wrote:
Everytime they come up, we get entertained by some Person claiming the current System is broken and then present a System which can be abused so easily that even a chimp can figure out in 5 seconds how to abuse it.

Depending on point of view the current system is broken or we would not have a continuing string of topics asking for a bounty system overhaul. On the other hand there are those that claim the current bounty system is not broken because they want to be able to place a worthless bounty on anyone in the game.

Hello Meow Kitty wrote:
Alts are the main and underlying issue as to why it will never work. If anything it should be removed.

This seems to be the basis for most arguments against changing the bounty system, and yet it would be extremely easy to set up a bounty system that CANNOT be farmed for ISK by using alts or friends. Remove the full amount of the bounty from the wallet of the character at the time they place the bounty and the profit from killing your own aspect is completely removed.
Sure character A could place a 100 million ISK bounty on character B, but in the process character A has 100 million ISK removed from their wallet. When your character C kills your character B and collects the bounty you as a player simply get you 100 million ISK back, no one has profited because you could simply transfer the ISK from A to C and avoid the whole bounty hassle.

Now if character A and B are controlled by the same person and C is controlled by a different player we actually have what we want and that is a system where players can profit by collecting bounties. And yet because A is required to put up the entire amount of the bounty when they place that bounty we are not creating ISK out of thin air we are simply moving it from one character to another.


Self farming for bounty is prevented by the low payout ratio on the kills. Many people who ask for change to the system usually think it would be ok to clear the bounty in one go no matter what ship you kill. This mean you can shoot yourself in a shuttle with your alt and cash in all the money that was on your head at the cost of a shuttle + a little bit of effort.

The other change line usually proposed is enabling engagement in HS of people under bounty. This only turn into people putting bounty on all freighter pilot they ever see for example.

Only thing I could see implemented are player generated kill contract where money is being paid for a kill potentially with a collateral to prevent it from just begin used for scams... This might be extremely hard to effectively implement tho so I would not hold my breath for it.
Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2017-02-01 22:59:18 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
This seems to be the basis for most arguments against changing the bounty system, and yet it would be extremely easy to set up a bounty system that CANNOT be farmed for ISK by using alts or friends. Remove the full amount of the bounty from the wallet of the character at the time they place the bounty and the profit from killing your own aspect is completely removed.
Sure character A could place a 100 million ISK bounty on character B, but in the process character A has 100 million ISK removed from their wallet. When your character C kills your character B and collects the bounty you as a player simply get you 100 million ISK back, no one has profited because you could simply transfer the ISK from A to C and avoid the whole bounty hassle.

Now if character A and B are controlled by the same person and C is controlled by a different player we actually have what we want and that is a system where players can profit by collecting bounties. And yet because A is required to put up the entire amount of the bounty when they place that bounty we are not creating ISK out of thin air we are simply moving it from one character to another.

Let's say character A is the party that has a grudge with character B. So, A puts a bounty on Bs head. Now B talks to C, who is his friend or even Alt, and C blows up B, and transfers the bounty payout to him. If the bounty payout is not tied to the kill value, then B can get blown up in a rookie ship, and make a lot of money. Clearly not what A intended. If the payout is the killed ships value minus insurance, then B can still remove the bounty with the help of C for no cost at all. If the payout is just a little lower than the ships value minus insurance, then B can just get rid of the bounty for a little fee, still making the whole bounty system completely useless.

This is why the bounty payout in the current system is not worth going bounty hunting for. You will only get maybe 10 million if you are really lucky and find your mark in an expensive ship.

The current bounty system is not broken in the sense that it can be exploited. CCP tried there best to make it non-exploitable, and at least as far as that is concerned, it works. It's just not very interesting for players to use, because of the low payouts.

The solutions proposed so far do not seem all that great either. Tying bounty and killrights to sec status means trying to fix one bad system by making it depend on another bad system. A negative sec status only says that whoever doesn't give enough f\\ks to go and fix it. It's not like fixing your sec status is difficult in any way shape or form. Sec status would need to be fixed to even consider this.

Besides - sec status only takes illegal aggression into account. Not however corp theft, sabotage, espionage or being an *******. But those are far more interesting reasons to actually put a bounty on someones head.

Tying bounty/killrights to actions that would trigger a criminal flag would be pretty useless. Most people ganking in highsec fly cheap, disposable ships and are fully prepared to loose them. More often than not they have -10 sec already, so all they do is insta undock, warp to a target, fire a couple of rounds and die. Good luck catching them often enough to actually deal some damage to them they will care about. There's no point to putting a bounty on their head. Tying bounty/killrights to actions that trigger a suspect flag would maybe help a little with the neutral logi station games some mercenaries like to play, but that would be a very specific niche, and not really a bounty system.

A bounty hunter is required where the law enforcement cannot or will not act. If I just randomly blow up your ship, then law enforcement will make sure that I loose mine, and they give you the right to make me loose another one if you so desire. If I rack up enough negative sec, then the faction police will already come after me if I show my face on their turf. This is not where we would need a bounty/killright mechanic.

Tying bounty payouts to the corpse will not work, since pods don't cost anything. I'd just have a friend or alt pod me on the station undock, scoop my corpse, dock, deliver it and transfer the bounty. Thanks for the donation, bro!

I'm with Jennifer Starblaze:

Jennifer Starblaze wrote:
Everytime they come up, we get entertained by some Person claiming the current System is broken and then present a System which can be abused so easily that even a chimp can figure out in 5 seconds how to abuse it.

Admittedly, not all ideas are that terrible, but even the better ones are no better than what we have already, or completely misunderstand the concept of what a bounty hunter is.
Jennifer Starblaze
Fury Transport
#26 - 2017-02-01 23:19:04 UTC
mkint wrote:
Now that the thread is in F&I, my contribution in actual ideas.

Disclaimer: I expect the following idea to be relatively cheap to implement, relatively non disruptive to normal game play. Possibly in a dev's 20% time or whatever they call it. The key point is that it could make bounty hunting an actual thing without allowing the target to profit from it.

Split the bounty into two pools. Pool one is as is, the total bounty on a target. Any time a player dies to PVP, the bounty gets paid out exactly as it does now, except instead of going to the player, it goes into a jackpot pool for that player. The jackpot pool is only paid out on pod death. The value of a jackpot can accumulate to completely ridiculous amounts, worth going after a pod for, worth suicide smartbombing a pod for, but it still won't ever be profitable for the target or his alts because it still requires him to lose more than can be gained. He can still claim it himself to reduce his risk, but he can't profit from it.

Further iterations could be tools to provoke fights, more similar to things the OP talked about, such as:

-tying the bounty payout to the corpse itself, and holding a bountied corpse in cargo would grant a suspect flag
-a possibly valuable tag (value determined by a bidding system) that puts the holder in suspect status to hopefully provoke a fight with his target and competitors.

The primary change in having a jackpot pool for the target could be a relatively cheap (I don't know the cost of development) way to test if it's worth doing (possibly) more expensive iterations. With the iterations, it would be a bounty system I'd actually look forward to get bountied for.


The way you describe it, it is quite possible to profit by killing yourself with. Sure, you won't be able to fill the jackpot pool yourself, but once you have been killed often enough you can still cash in the jackpot by just podding yourself.
Jennifer Starblaze
Fury Transport
#27 - 2017-02-01 23:24:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Jennifer Starblaze
Donnachadh wrote:
Jennifer Starblaze wrote:
Everytime they come up, we get entertained by some Person claiming the current System is broken and then present a System which can be abused so easily that even a chimp can figure out in 5 seconds how to abuse it.

Depending on point of view the current system is broken or we would not have a continuing string of topics asking for a bounty system overhaul. On the other hand there are those that claim the current bounty system is not broken because they want to be able to place a worthless bounty on anyone in the game.



If you use the number of times something pops up on the forums as indicator if something is broken, pretty much everything in the game is broken. Just because ppl regularly complain about something, it does not mean that it's broken.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#28 - 2017-02-01 23:26:03 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Jennifer Starblaze wrote:
Everytime they come up, we get entertained by some Person claiming the current System is broken and then present a System which can be abused so easily that even a chimp can figure out in 5 seconds how to abuse it.

Depending on point of view the current system is broken or we would not have a continuing string of topics asking for a bounty system overhaul. On the other hand there are those that claim the current bounty system is not broken because they want to be able to place a worthless bounty on anyone in the game.

Hello Meow Kitty wrote:
Alts are the main and underlying issue as to why it will never work. If anything it should be removed.

This seems to be the basis for most arguments against changing the bounty system, and yet it would be extremely easy to set up a bounty system that CANNOT be farmed for ISK by using alts or friends. Remove the full amount of the bounty from the wallet of the character at the time they place the bounty and the profit from killing your own aspect is completely removed.
Sure character A could place a 100 million ISK bounty on character B, but in the process character A has 100 million ISK removed from their wallet. When your character C kills your character B and collects the bounty you as a player simply get you 100 million ISK back, no one has profited because you could simply transfer the ISK from A to C and avoid the whole bounty hassle.

Now if character A and B are controlled by the same person and C is controlled by a different player we actually have what we want and that is a system where players can profit by collecting bounties. And yet because A is required to put up the entire amount of the bounty when they place that bounty we are not creating ISK out of thin air we are simply moving it from one character to another.




what if a puts the bounty on B then B gets his alt in C and thats why alts are the issue

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
mkint
#29 - 2017-02-02 01:56:53 UTC
Jennifer Starblaze wrote:
mkint wrote:
Now that the thread is in F&I, my contribution in actual ideas.

Disclaimer: I expect the following idea to be relatively cheap to implement, relatively non disruptive to normal game play. Possibly in a dev's 20% time or whatever they call it. The key point is that it could make bounty hunting an actual thing without allowing the target to profit from it.

Split the bounty into two pools. Pool one is as is, the total bounty on a target. Any time a player dies to PVP, the bounty gets paid out exactly as it does now, except instead of going to the player, it goes into a jackpot pool for that player. The jackpot pool is only paid out on pod death. The value of a jackpot can accumulate to completely ridiculous amounts, worth going after a pod for, worth suicide smartbombing a pod for, but it still won't ever be profitable for the target or his alts because it still requires him to lose more than can be gained. He can still claim it himself to reduce his risk, but he can't profit from it.

Further iterations could be tools to provoke fights, more similar to things the OP talked about, such as:

-tying the bounty payout to the corpse itself, and holding a bountied corpse in cargo would grant a suspect flag
-a possibly valuable tag (value determined by a bidding system) that puts the holder in suspect status to hopefully provoke a fight with his target and competitors.

The primary change in having a jackpot pool for the target could be a relatively cheap (I don't know the cost of development) way to test if it's worth doing (possibly) more expensive iterations. With the iterations, it would be a bounty system I'd actually look forward to get bountied for.


The way you describe it, it is quite possible to profit by killing yourself with. Sure, you won't be able to fill the jackpot pool yourself, but once you have been killed often enough you can still cash in the jackpot by just podding yourself.

You could still cash in on the jackpot yourself, but it still won't be more than what you lost to fill up the pool. That would be exactly the same as it is now. They might clear it out themselves every so often to keep it down to a manageable level, but at least then there would be a decision to make as opposed to now, there is no decision.

I do still stand by my original stance though... that game development doesn't happen on public forums. This is all self indulgent fantasy. Is there an emoji for the wanking gesture?

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Jennifer Starblaze
Fury Transport
#30 - 2017-02-02 03:57:46 UTC
mkint wrote:
Jennifer Starblaze wrote:
mkint wrote:
Now that the thread is in F&I, my contribution in actual ideas.

Disclaimer: I expect the following idea to be relatively cheap to implement, relatively non disruptive to normal game play. Possibly in a dev's 20% time or whatever they call it. The key point is that it could make bounty hunting an actual thing without allowing the target to profit from it.

Split the bounty into two pools. Pool one is as is, the total bounty on a target. Any time a player dies to PVP, the bounty gets paid out exactly as it does now, except instead of going to the player, it goes into a jackpot pool for that player. The jackpot pool is only paid out on pod death. The value of a jackpot can accumulate to completely ridiculous amounts, worth going after a pod for, worth suicide smartbombing a pod for, but it still won't ever be profitable for the target or his alts because it still requires him to lose more than can be gained. He can still claim it himself to reduce his risk, but he can't profit from it.

Further iterations could be tools to provoke fights, more similar to things the OP talked about, such as:

-tying the bounty payout to the corpse itself, and holding a bountied corpse in cargo would grant a suspect flag
-a possibly valuable tag (value determined by a bidding system) that puts the holder in suspect status to hopefully provoke a fight with his target and competitors.

The primary change in having a jackpot pool for the target could be a relatively cheap (I don't know the cost of development) way to test if it's worth doing (possibly) more expensive iterations. With the iterations, it would be a bounty system I'd actually look forward to get bountied for.


The way you describe it, it is quite possible to profit by killing yourself with. Sure, you won't be able to fill the jackpot pool yourself, but once you have been killed often enough you can still cash in the jackpot by just podding yourself.

You could still cash in on the jackpot yourself, but it still won't be more than what you lost to fill up the pool. That would be exactly the same as it is now. They might clear it out themselves every so often to keep it down to a manageable level, but at least then there would be a decision to make as opposed to now, there is no decision.

I do still stand by my original stance though... that game development doesn't happen on public forums. This is all self indulgent fantasy. Is there an emoji for the wanking gesture?


The point is, it's only natural to lose ships in eve and it will happen once in a while no matter if you have a bounty or not. If you can however cash in on your bounty jackpot, it means you can kill yourself for ISK that you would never get otherwise -> profit for podkilling yourself.
Van Doe
#31 - 2017-02-02 11:07:20 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
he is what you do

make them contracts

in the contract you can set

  • how much you pay per kill

  • min value of kill for payout

  • who can accept the contract

  • total isk pool for bounty




do this and bounty hunting can finally be made into a profession in eve

This is van doe approved

I'm not trolling, I create content for everyone to enjoy. afk cloaky in a system near you while posting in this forum.
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