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Average wage in ISK? 💰

Author
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#21 - 2017-02-01 07:36:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Are corporate scrips really a thing in Caldari State? Could you provide a source? In such case, system involving such scrips would take value of commodities still into consideration, so it would be effectively like paying with nature, but you get your nature only from this one particular employer if you dont exchange. So it would be unnecessarily complicated. I think this rather complex system of different scrips would be an unnecessary weight on employee and employed. Scrips would be harder to control for inflation, who can say how much scrips are worth - a company, and they were fighting. I think, that If economy would have be really efficient, the role of scrips would have to be diminished only to company stores, with outsiders controlling the relations between scrips and wage would be still fundamentally shown in unified legal tender, that could be exchanged to scrips, maybe with bonuses rewarding loyalty.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2017-02-01 08:24:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
https://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/kaalakiota-corporate-bank-may-devalue-scrip/

Yes, from this news article, 'corporate scrip' is an actual currency used inside the Megas. I personally read of corporate scrips in Eve Source, or so I think. I will need to get back from work and refer to the book to confirm exactly which page 'scrips' are mentioned and/or elaborated upon.

As for how scrips work, consider that each Mega is essentially a nation unto itself, while the State organisations would be akin to world organisation. For example, the CEP can be considered to be the equivalent of the UN and the Caldari Funds Unlimited would be their equivalent of World Bank. Therefore the scrips would be the equivalent of pounds and dollars, except much more regulated compared to what we have IRL. Where it differs is the government and the megacorp are the same entity and every citizen is, effectively, a civil servant.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#23 - 2017-02-01 08:56:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
So now it all makes sense. But we still have an economy based on free market dont we? Where different legal tenders are exchanged for work and products. Corporation must sell something, and they have to use monetary system to do that. If they want to put it on market that is free, at least in interstellar sense, they will have to tie its currency to larger monetary system. Now, how much worth is Caldari citizen work In relation to capsuleer earnings? Probably as much as to facilitate him living a good life either he would work in space or on planet (when people could still move freely). Good can be relative description, but Caldari corporation would want to allow better living standards for their citizens than for example Gallente citizens have, because it would make Caldari Corporation citizens unhappy if their corporation would not care.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2017-02-01 09:21:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Nana Skalski wrote:
So now it all makes sense. But we still have an economy based on free market dont we? Where different legal tenders are exchanged for work and products. Corporation must sell something, and they have to use monetary system to do that. If they want to put it on market that is free, at least in interstellar sense, they will have to tie its currency to larger monetary system. Now, how much worth is Caldari citizen work In relation to capsuleer earnings? Probably as much as to facilitate him living a good life either he would work in space or on planet (when people could still move freely). Good can be relative description, but Caldari corporation would want to allow better living standards for their citizens than for example Gallente citizens have, because it would make Caldari Corporation citizens unhappy if their corporation would not care.


Now you are making a little mistake in how the Caldari think. The ordinary Caldari person is indoctrinated from a very young age to live for the Mega and for the State and to basically treat Stoicism as the Holy Word. So what they consider living a 'good life' is very different from how we define a 'good life'. For them, a 'good' living standard is one where they don't have to worry about starvation, the future of their children, their livelihood and be able to concentrate entirely on their work and their place in the Mega.

Of course, not every Mega fulfils the responsibility of ensuring that their citizen do get a 'good life' as envisioned by their citizens, so that they can remain acceptably productive. There's plenty of Chronicle stories detailing abuses heaped upon their more lower-rung citizens and of how small-scale rebellions are frequently plotted right under the noses of the foremen and managers.

Also, market *inside* the State is not free. Your typical Ishukone citizen will purchase Ishukone-brand toiletries, live in Ishukone houses, cook Ishukone-brand bacon from an Ishukone farm on an Ishukone skillet on prices that are completely determined by Ishukone. The prices of all these Ishukone goods are determined by Ishukone. However, sometimes the citizen needs to buy something else. Something like, say, a Kaalikiota-brand kitchen knife, because for whatever reason, he figured that the Ishukone-brand kitchen knife isn't sharp enough to cut the Ishukone steak. When this happens, the Ishukone scrip has to be exchanged into the Kaalikiota one. Conversion rate is determined by the Caldari Funds Unlimited, and they base the value of Ishukone to Kaalikiota on, presumably, how much Isk is currently floating around inside the Caldari State itself and the proportion of Isk that is currently possessed by Ishukone vs Kaalikiota. As for where they get the Isk, well, they export goods and services to the interstellar market to get Isk into the State and divvied up amongst the Megas actually providing the specific goods and services.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#25 - 2017-02-01 09:33:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
In all of that, I see Caldari corporation stations everywhere in space, not only in State terrritory, so I assume there is a lot of exchange to ISK too in those stations. When people from around the system meet in one place. And exchange for ISK would have to be facilitated in them, so far away from State territory. And Jita, Jita dwellers would need a common legal tender for real. Being so close to a definition of free interstellar market. Would be a lot easier to pay people with what you gain, without additional recalculations with currencies from around the whole New Eden. Where capsuleers meet with non capsuleers at least.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2017-02-01 09:38:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Nana Skalski wrote:
In all of that, I see Caldari corporation stations everywhere in space, not only in State terrritory, so I assume there is a lot of exchange to ISK too in those stations. When people from around the system meet in one place. And exchange for ISK would have to be facilitated in them, so far away from State territory. And Jita, Jita dwellers would need a common legal tender for real. Being so close to a definition of free interstellar market. Would be a lot easier to pay people with what you gain, without additional recalculations with currencies from around the whole New Eden. Where capsuleers meet with non capsuleers at least.


Just remember that the interstellar market is free but the market inside the Caldari State is the very, very tightly regulated.

It's a very similar situation to China's relation to the global market. The Chinese Yuan is regulated, while every other currency is subjected to the whims of the global market. Yes, it will be easier to do away with the additional recalculations, but eh, that's how the State works and they aren't feeling too much pressure to change.

As for goods sold by State to the interstellar market, it goes this way:

Employee produces goods, which are considered the property of the Mega. Mega sells goods for an asking price, which fluctuates based on supply and demand of the interstellar market, through an intermediary (not sure who. Probably the CFU). Goods sold for the asking price in the value of ISK. Intermediary takes a cut of the profit, rest goes into Mega. Mega then does some kind of calculation and issues corporate scrips to ensure that the scrip to isk value remains consistent. Employee gets paid with the scrip proportionally to the contribution he gave to the production of the goods, after blah blah blah calculation. Mega will perform all kinds of calculations to ensure that the scrip value remains consistent so that the employee can keep buying Mega-brand toilet paper at the consistent price.

As for how they can keep doing this every time there's an import or export, well, the Megacorp accounting division is a government agency. Probably have a fancy name like Ishukone/Kaalikiota/WhateverMega Accounting Department or something. Since they could keep doing it from since the time of antiquity, they will keep on doing it. After all, the Caldari State is, at the social level, very, very conservative and tradition-bound. All the advances they made thus far was to facilitate the ability to keep living in such a conservative and traditional manner.

I also doubt that the term 'Free Press' has a native equivalent inside the State.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#27 - 2017-02-01 10:05:01 UTC
What about roadhouses and bars? Establishments inside stations where people have to be paid, but they are outside of the scrip system? I imagine there must be some law to make people come up with their own little businesses anywhere. If state is full of other non state controlled Stations, Caldari citizens could just seek work there. Lets not assume every Caldari is a slave.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2017-02-01 10:30:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Nana Skalski wrote:
What about roadhouses and bars? Establishments inside stations where people have to be paid, but they are outside of the scrip system? I imagine there must be some law to make people come up with their own little businesses anywhere. If state is full of other non state controlled Stations, Caldari citizens could just seek work there. Lets not assume every Caldari is a slave.


Here's how it will work for a Megacorp-controlled station. A bar that is run by a State citizen is not the property of the citizen, but the property of the State. As such, earnings in Isk or whatever currency is basically considered State earnings. Bar itself is governed in the same way any corporate department is governed. Isk is claimed by State, employee paid in scrips. Employee will buy consumer goods that will also be priced in scips inside shops that are within citizen zones. For most parts, the State employee will receive the same goods and services the outsiders will also get from their part of the station, except priced in corporate scrips.

Yes. I totally brought in segregation. And yes, the regular State citizen sees nothing wrong with this. Their opinions of the outsiders is kind of but not entirely similar to what easterners thought of foreigners way back in the day (foreign devils, etc etc etc).

If the State citizen seeks to go work elsewhere, there is that option but they will have to relinquish their State citizenship. ALONG with all the retirement fund, ties with their family members, etc etc etc. Considering that the regular State citizen, unless they happen to be working for very ****** Mega, is guaranteed housing, free quality and very competitive education for children, retraining programmes, social mobility and etc, there is usually very little incentive for them to actually find work elsewhere. Those who take issues with how the State is run (you know, rigid regime and all), well, there's a reason the Guristas exist, and why there are Federation citizens with Caldari lineage.

What about bars inside State station run by outsiders? Bar is considered rented or leashed to the outsider owners, and the price is paid in Isk to the State.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#29 - 2017-02-01 11:02:44 UTC
So that is Caldari. I now consider Federation being closest to what you can know from for example current US economic system. With Minmatar economy working on the same principles. About easterness of Caldari, I see some similarities between Caldari and economy/society of Japan, but exagerater and combined with former system of scrips of the US mining companies.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#30 - 2017-02-02 22:47:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Owen Levanth
Nana Skalski wrote:
Is there something written about how much people on planet earn monthly? ISK to planetary legal tender? I once heard that 1 ISK is a lot, but we pay for a Quafe with more than 1 ISK usually.

Some products prices from Jita:
0.1 m3 (100 L) Quafe = 224 ISK. 1 L = 2,24 ISK.
0.5 m3 (500 L) Dairy products = 170 ISK. 1 L = 0.34 ISK.

And now for something exported from planet:
0.38 m3 (380 L) Water = 570 ISK. 1 L = 1.5 ISK. (bottled? Icon looks like its bottled water)

So if a janitor makes 1000 ISK per month, he could buy:
446 L of Quafe or 2941 L of dairy products. Or 666 L of Water from planet across the New Eden. Sometimes those items are slightly cheaper.

I think that empires could use ISK for exchange of legal tender. And people in space could be paid normally with ISK. This could include Marines, Janitors, Scientists and all those Caldari Light Marines that are employed in space.

What do you think? Could ISK really be a legal tender for everyone in space, normally exchanged for empire money and not actually with big difference? I think its not a big difference, because POCOs dont really take a big money when moving stuff in both directions. And value of things? Could it be only difference in POCO tax?
And the Janitor? Would he be a healthy man drinking all this milk? Big smile


I'd wager normal people on planets probably don't buy their groceries on the capsuleer-markets. The prices we pay are all horribly inflated. Considering how far removed we are from common baseline people, we're all paying premiums on everything.

Think about it, how many capsule pilots would try walking into some random normal people shop in a space station, risking his or her immortal life for a bottle of Quafe? Quafe isn't that refreshing.

So I'd guess we're paying at least a hundred times more then normal people for stuff like water or Quafe. Then take into account the costs of shipping that stuff up into space in the first place. In the end, people in space probably pay at least ten times as much to account for the trouble of shipping around stuff produced on planets. Or at least in a far away orbital Quafe-factory. Even normal space cargo shipping costs something, and corporations are greedy.

Let's take a bottle of Quafe (1l) for example. We pay 2,24 ISK with the current market prices. A normal, but space travelling human would pay 0,0224 ISK for the same bottle. A baseline human living on a planet would pay even less: 0,00224 ISK per bottle. Converted into local prices, that makes sense when taken together with the lore description of capsuleers being filthy, filthy rich.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2017-02-03 02:59:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Nana Skalski wrote:
So that is Caldari. I now consider Federation being closest to what you can know from for example current US economic system. With Minmatar economy working on the same principles. About easterness of Caldari, I see some similarities between Caldari and economy/society of Japan, but exagerater and combined with former system of scrips of the US mining companies.


The Caldari system is pretty much a collection of Chaebol (the S. Korean version of Conglomerate) that has completely supplanted the traditional government and has become the government. Said Chaebol also uses the Germanic education system to educate and train their workforce (and a lot of aptitude and competency tests and evaluations) in order to ensure that every citizen-employee will have a place and a role to play in the Chaebol, because at this point they can't just hire and fire as they damn well please (because that would be the same thing as exile their employee from the country, now that the employee is also the citizen). Oh, and inside the Chaebol they have their own currency used to buy their own goods which are mostly produced in-house too (corporate scrips).

It's as cyberpunk as it gets. At least for the guy who is roleplaying the sarariman.

On the other hand, yes, the Federation system is more similar to what we are used to IRL, except even less regulated.

The Republic, on the other hand, would more or less copy the Federation system but due to diversity, this system might not be followed universally.

In the Amarr Empire, well, they are more feudal so expect Holders to go around trying to regulate prices, accounting be damned. At least the Caldari always do the math, while the Holders could be anywhere between extreme accounting to 'well sod it this bottle of Quafe is 1 Shekel (or insert local currency) I don't care what's the Shekel to Isk conversion rates!'

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Tristan Valentina
Moira.
#32 - 2017-02-08 19:46:22 UTC
Owen Levanth wrote:


I'd wager normal people on planets probably don't buy their groceries on the capsuleer-markets. The prices we pay are all horribly inflated. Considering how far removed we are from common baseline people, we're all paying premiums on everything.

Think about it, how many capsule pilots would try walking into some random normal people shop in a space station, risking his or her immortal life for a bottle of Quafe? Quafe isn't that refreshing.

So I'd guess we're paying at least a hundred times more then normal people for stuff like water or Quafe. Then take into account the costs of shipping that stuff up into space in the first place. In the end, people in space probably pay at least ten times as much to account for the trouble of shipping around stuff produced on planets. Or at least in a far away orbital Quafe-factory. Even normal space cargo shipping costs something, and corporations are greedy.

Let's take a bottle of Quafe (1l) for example. We pay 2,24 ISK with the current market prices. A normal, but space travelling human would pay 0,0224 ISK for the same bottle. A baseline human living on a planet would pay even less: 0,00224 ISK per bottle. Converted into local prices, that makes sense when taken together with the lore description of capsuleers being filthy, filthy rich.


On the capsuleer market simple commodities like your example of Quafe are inflated, but the prices we pay for things like Battle Cruisers are deflated.
Tristan Valentina
Moira.
#33 - 2017-02-08 20:57:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Tristan Valentina
I find myself sticking to the place where there is no way of directly trading the currency of the capsuleer market with that of planetary government. I would assume that governments provide capsuleers with a way to buy planetary currency, but I doubt that it is a direct conversion in the same sense that we experience in the real world. More of a cost per m3 and less of a monetary rate. With out protections like this it would be to easy for a capsuleer to crush a planetary economy. While I understand that we RPers would like to think that infomorphs can be payed in planetary currency, but in every case when infomorphs are introduced into the game they do business in there own isolated markets. I have always taken this as a control put in place by CONCORD, that they use to make sure that we influence each other not prey on the masses.


Obviously ISK is a currency used by people who interact with the established interstellar markets, but I am also making the assumption that these Captains of Industry when they are not capsuleers have also reached a state similar to the immortality that capsuleers experience. Possibly without the controls of CONCORD and that is just an amazingly dark void to go into.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#34 - 2017-02-09 18:14:58 UTC
Tristan Valentina wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:


I'd wager normal people on planets probably don't buy their groceries on the capsuleer-markets. The prices we pay are all horribly inflated. Considering how far removed we are from common baseline people, we're all paying premiums on everything.

Think about it, how many capsule pilots would try walking into some random normal people shop in a space station, risking his or her immortal life for a bottle of Quafe? Quafe isn't that refreshing.

So I'd guess we're paying at least a hundred times more then normal people for stuff like water or Quafe. Then take into account the costs of shipping that stuff up into space in the first place. In the end, people in space probably pay at least ten times as much to account for the trouble of shipping around stuff produced on planets. Or at least in a far away orbital Quafe-factory. Even normal space cargo shipping costs something, and corporations are greedy.

Let's take a bottle of Quafe (1l) for example. We pay 2,24 ISK with the current market prices. A normal, but space travelling human would pay 0,0224 ISK for the same bottle. A baseline human living on a planet would pay even less: 0,00224 ISK per bottle. Converted into local prices, that makes sense when taken together with the lore description of capsuleers being filthy, filthy rich.


On the capsuleer market simple commodities like your example of Quafe are inflated, but the prices we pay for things like Battle Cruisers are deflated.


Well yeah, because capsule pilots are building battlecruisers and other stuff like mad, while no-one bothers with brewing their own Quafe. P
Tristan Valentina
Moira.
#35 - 2017-02-10 04:52:58 UTC
Owen Levanth wrote:




Well yeah, because capsule pilots are building battlecruisers and other stuff like mad, while no-one bothers with brewing their own Quafe. P


That and I mean i can only drink one Quafe a day or I will get fat. I can lose 5 Battle Cruisers in 10 minutes! It really is a consumption issue!

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