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What corp BM'ing scheme / WH map tool combo is most scanner friendly?

Author
Tatsuj Khan
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2017-01-28 01:36:01 UTC

For years, WH corp leaders have complained that few line members go out to scan, most players sit in their citadels or keep busy with activities close to home. Noobman (CSM12) wrote in his WH CSM meeting notes: "Make scanning less time consuming." Though scanning chains in j-space is clearly critical, few residents have any enthusiasm for probing.

Recently I got an earful from my ex-corpies who firmly believed that bookmarks' (BMs) good looks and adherence to an old BM'ing scheme based on a now obsolete mapping tool is best. Though it clearly wastes scanners' time and effort, they insisted their corp BM'ing scheme / WH map tool combo TRUMPS pro-scanner friendliness offered by alternatives.

As a probably rare player who fully enjoys scanning, I wondered, am I too idealistic when it comes to pro-scanner friendly corps? Does the “lazy position” in Jack Milton's reply to “make probing easier” demands commonly beat simply adopting easier, faster, and more fun mapping/BM'ing innovations?

Or is it because I'm like a frog in a well... with a narrow perspective focused too much on the Vippy mapper paired with its 'Auto-name systems: numbers (by static)' bookmarking scheme? It seems to me now, that this combo is probably rare in WH corps, that I'm limiting my career as a pro-scanner to stick with it...

So I wonder, what corp BM'ing scheme / WH map tool combo is most scanner friendly? What combinations are commonly used in j-space that does not make scanning, time consuming, tedious work?
Tatsuj Khan
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2017-01-28 01:36:56 UTC
FYI
In anticipation of those who'll ask, what exactly is the Vippy mapper and its 'auto-name systems: numbers (by static)' bookmarking scheme?

Vippy is roughly similar to Siggy. Vippy's map displays a chain(s) of wormhole systems each with on map system info such as system class, static types, unique identification/bookmark label, and the real-time presence of corp members and their ships types.

The mapper paired with its 'auto-name systems: numbers (by static)' bookmarking scheme is elegant and so far, the most probing friendly system I've seen.

Essentially, for me, this Vippy scanning option is mostly all about copy and paste – to cut-out the thousands upon thousands of keystrokes normally required. These are the simplified steps I take immediately after I jump into a newly discovered wormhole:

  • bookmark the returning wormhole;
  • scout around, collect PvP-related intel, and input this info into the on map Vippy database where the data is permamently saved;
  • scan all system signatures;
  • ctrl-A and then ctrl-C to paste the full results of my system scan into Vippy;
  • Fly to a newly scanned wormhole and read its information;
  • Append a character or two to the numbers (by static) root label for a newly found wormhole and paste it into Vippy's sig list;
  • for the WH location, paste the exact same label into the corporate bookmark folder (the paste order is irrelevant);
  • Repeat the same for the remaining new WHs. Append a unique character or two to the same numbers (by static) root label, then copy and paste in two places. Done.


Minimal typing and absolutely no re-work. There is no need to visually identify the class of unknown or dangerous wormholes – a common step that discriminates against the ~5-10% of males who have visual colour deficiencies.

Administration and pruning of chains in the corp BM folder is trivial. Because every single bookmark within each chain is marked by its own unique numerical root identifier. Bookmarks for each chain off from the home system is independent from other chains and more importantly, map independent. If the map server is down, players still can navigate up and down the chains for PvP.


So my challenge is to find a BM'ing scheme / mapper combo that is just or more simple and fun to use by probers – but fully adopted by many wormhole corps. Is there such an alternative in j-space?
Haile Korhal
Professional Amateurs
#3 - 2017-01-28 02:45:30 UTC
That sounds like an awful lot of work you do. All I can do, or anyone else willing to share such "massive corp secrets" such as this would only tell you what they do, what they use, and how it has benefited them. Then maybe you can use some or none of everyone's replies to make your own best system? Again, it's all personal preference and what works for one person won't necessarily work for another; so there's no "best" just "mine and thine."

I think my 'new system procedure' is only 4 steps long if you exclude jumping through wormholes.

  • Jump in,
  • Bookmark return,
  • Look for locals,
  • Scan,
  • Update pathfinder,
  • Move on.

Updating pathfinder requires a single double click on the new automatically populated system, generally 3-7 characters to name it, a single click to open the signatures input box, Ctrl-A from game Ctrl-V into the input box, and a single click on the accept button (and maybe another click to 'Delete Old Signatures' if necessary).

Every corporation does what they have found works best for them. I've been a part of several different 'managements' and each used a different method of bookmarking. So, when I became 'the leader' I sat down and typed up a 3 page document outlining how we share information, proper bookmark names, and so on. It takes a little bit to get used to, but it works great for my group and we rarely have to do any additional work (reading or saving).

We use Pathfinder and it works pretty great (it's also quite pretty too, although still in development). We have a hand crafted system in place for knowing what a wormhole's name is when we find it. The only three things we track in its name are what chain it is part of, what type of hole it is, and when it was found.

The first system in a chain, starting from home, is it's own folder. They're generally C#T (T meaning home). So we have folders for C1T, C2T, C3T, C4T, C5T, C6T, Frigate Holes (which are cancer to us!), HST, LST, NST, and our static.

Bookmarks leading to a particular non-home system are named the same as the system is on Pathfinder, bookmarks leading home (up chain) are preceded with a splat (*) and bookmarks leading away (down chain) are preceded by a period (.). If we're doing something in a specific chain we'll leave breadcrumbs after the period so people only have to follow them to get to the destination (usually an exclamation point after the period).

Then we name systems based on what they are and when we found them. So the first Low-Sec we find is LSA, the second is LSB, the third is LSC, and so on. Generally we stop diving long before we reach 'T' on the alphabet, so T is a good option for our 'origin systems' for any particular chain.

At the end of a name we may attach additional information if we feel we need it. Such as a % if we haven't gone through it, -EOL, -S2/S3 for massed holes, -SIG if we haven't warped to it, or any other number of short descriptors. Of course Pathfinder is a nice repository for all of this information and can graphically display all of it at a casual glance, but should it go down for whatever reason our in game system will allow us to navigate without looking at the chain. It'll even sometimes save that info if you ever run into that system again. For example we've named a wormhole 'The Capital Wasteland' because it as an Astrahus named Rivet City in it that we've come across 8 times in the past month alone.

We don't really think scanning is all that time consuming, but we wouldn't complain if it were made easier too. Scanning our chain out usually takes anywhere from 20 minutes to 60 minutes depending on how many holes we have and how deep we go. We can have our static rolled and scanned out every 20-40 minutes if we're looking for content. Generally we only go 2 holes deep before returning home unless we're actively hunting.

So, yeah; I hope that helps. Just my 3,921 ISK.

Egregious Spreadsheet Services - For Spreadsheets as a Service to businesses, corporations, and higher, look no further!

Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2017-01-29 12:10:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
I'm not sure why my name was dropped but for the record I absolutely despise people who think probing should be made easier; it's already WAY too easy.
The issue is people over think this crap to no end.

- all whs leading back into system of origin (generally your home system) can just be labeled '!', or '.', or if you're feeling expansive; '.in'
- all other holes just labeled as the destination class number and a letter to differentiate. Eg: 2a, 2b ect. (Change name on mapper accordingly)
- if you don't know how to ID all 6 classes without jumping through the hole, learn it, it isn't hard and it absolutely IS essential.
- kspace holes are just HS, LS, NS. Use letter for differentiation if multiples in same system
- personally I just bm all frig holes as 'frig' cos Fk that noise, no one cares.

This is by FAR the simplest, most idiot proof and fastest way to label holes. You don't need the sig Id, wh type, time of scan, system of origin, dest system jsig or any other garbage people love putting in their bookmarks for no reason.
As for mapping tools, pathfinder and siggy and by far the best and it's not close. Tripwire is....kinda useable I suppose but it a pale comparison.

PS: FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY, PUT ALL BOOKMARKS THAT ARE IN ANY WAY CONNECTED TO YOUR HOME SYSTEM IN THE ONE FOLDER! YOU CAN DELETE THEM BY DATE FFS!!!

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Bloemkoolsaus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5 - 2017-01-30 08:43:39 UTC
Tatsuj Khan wrote:
So my challenge is to find a BM'ing scheme / mapper combo that is just or more simple and fun to use by probers – but fully adopted by many wormhole corps. Is there such an alternative in j-space?


The numbering system you're used to is the best i've seen so far. If only because when i'm scanning a system, i don't need to know what the rest of the chain looks like. If i find a wormhole, all i need to know is where I am right now. I dont need to know if it goes to a c4 or c5, and how many of those we already have to in order to give it the correct letter/number. I can just scan my current system without constantly having to double check on the map for every sig i scan. I can just, scan :D
Taurean Eltanin
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2017-01-30 08:55:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Taurean Eltanin
I'm going to disagree with Jack about the sig ID - I think including the first three letters of the ID in the bookmark name is very helpful, and it's so easy to do that I can't see why anyone would go out of their way to not include it.


By including the sig ID, you gain a number of benefits.

First, it's easy to let someone without access to the bookmarks (such as an out of corp alt) know which sig they need to scan down. Second, by comparing your list of bookmarks with the list of sigs, you can see which wormholes have expired without needing to warp to each of them. And third, by comparing your list of bookmarks with the list of sigs, you can see when a new sig has spawned in the system.

In each case, typing three letters into the bookmark saves you, or someone else, massive amounts of time.

Otherwise, though, my scheme is pretty simple. Any wormhole that leads back to my system is simply marked 'Wormhole', although I'll add the sig ID if I end up scanning down the system. All other wormholes are simply labeled for their destination. Occasionally, I'll add some kind of note to the sig, such as 'EOL', but only if it seems useful to do so.

If you like reading about low sec piracy or wormhole pvp, you might enjoy my blog.

Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#7 - 2017-01-31 06:16:36 UTC
If you're 'giving someone bookmarks' by making them scan them, you're not doing it right.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Taurean Eltanin
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2017-01-31 07:21:59 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
If you're 'giving someone bookmarks' by making them scan them, you're not doing it right.


Seems quicker and easier than having to be somewhere that I'm not. It takes, what, a minute to scan down a single sig? It takes longer for most ships to jump through a single system.

And that does not address the other advantages I mentioned.

If you like reading about low sec piracy or wormhole pvp, you might enjoy my blog.

Trevor Dalech
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#9 - 2017-01-31 08:47:21 UTC
Taurean Eltanin wrote:
I'm going to disagree with Jack about the sig ID - I think including the first three letters of the ID in the bookmark name is very helpful, and it's so easy to do that I can't see why anyone would go out of their way to not include it.


By including the sig ID, you gain a number of benefits.

First, it's easy to let someone without access to the bookmarks (such as an out of corp alt) know which sig they need to scan down. Second, by comparing your list of bookmarks with the list of sigs, you can see which wormholes have expired without needing to warp to each of them. And third, by comparing your list of bookmarks with the list of sigs, you can see when a new sig has spawned in the system.

In each case, typing three letters into the bookmark saves you, or someone else, massive amounts of time.

Otherwise, though, my scheme is pretty simple. Any wormhole that leads back to my system is simply marked 'Wormhole', although I'll add the sig ID if I end up scanning down the system. All other wormholes are simply labeled for their destination. Occasionally, I'll add some kind of note to the sig, such as 'EOL', but only if it seems useful to do so.


This is what I do as well, and personally I think it's the best method. All my signatures are bookmarked as
ABC Wormhole D382 to J123456 EOL
DEF Unsecured Perimeter Comms Relay
etc...

Advantage is that this scheme is quick: right click, save location, press left arrow so the cursor starts before the site name, and type in the three letters of the sig and a space. Ideally, my signature list, my bookmarks folder, and tripwire look identical (assuming all three are sorted by ID.) This way you can tell at a glance whether new sigs have (de)spawned, saving you the ctrl-a, ctrl-c, switch to browser, ctrl-v needed to paste them to tripwire.
Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2017-01-31 09:07:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
Taurean Eltanin wrote:
It takes, what, a minute to scan down a single sig?

I think this may be where our difference of opinion stems from.
If it takes you a minute to scan a sig, then sure, adding a bunch of time to your BMing process probably doesn't affect your scan time bottom like too much.
If you're actually scanning at pace with a maxed out scanner and taking ~5min per new system on average, it really does.
I've consistently found that adding random crap you don't need (and trust me, you really do not need it, try it without for a bit and see) easily increases scan time significantly if just scanning a chain.
Sure, it's a couple minutes per system but if you're scanning a long chain, it very quickly scales up to hugely inefficient numbers.
Say it adds 1min per system as an absolute minimum (and I think that's a generous time). How many systems do you scan a day? per chain? per week?
Maybe you scan 5 systems per chain (this number is very low if you have a high or dual static), 2 chains a day, that's 70min wasted per week.
How long have you lived in WHs? It's 60 hours a year.
Personally, I have better things to do with my time than typing out sig IDs into WH bookmarks.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Taurean Eltanin
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2017-01-31 09:29:11 UTC
I think perhaps I wasn't clear.

In the scenario I raised earlier: someone without corp bookmark access needs to know how to get into your wormhole. I'm assuming that they are in an industrial ship fit for wormhole travel, which means a cloak and an unbonused probe launcher.

There are two ways of getting that guy into the wormhole. I can either drop what I'm doing, fly out there, and physically give them the bookmarks, or I can simply let him know which sigs he needs to scan down in order to get in. Having the sig ID in the bookmark name makes it really easy to find that information.

And hey, better his time than mine, right?

Obviously, it comes down to personal preference, but I don't think that adding three characters to the start of each bookmark is a high price to pay to the numerous benefits that seem to flow from that.

If you like reading about low sec piracy or wormhole pvp, you might enjoy my blog.

Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2017-01-31 10:23:52 UTC
And the reason for reading them the sig IDs off your BMs rather than your chain mapper like a normal person is???

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Taurean Eltanin
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2017-01-31 10:35:14 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
And the reason for reading them the sig IDs off your BMs rather than your chain mapper like a normal person is???



Well recently it's been because the chain mappers have been as buggy as all hell. :D

If you like reading about low sec piracy or wormhole pvp, you might enjoy my blog.

Trevor Dalech
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#14 - 2017-01-31 17:37:42 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
And the reason for reading them the sig IDs off your BMs rather than your chain mapper like a normal person is???


Reading them off my always open bookmarks folder takes a glance... a fraction of a second. Reading them off my chain mapper requires I switch to an out of game browser, a glance, and switching back to game. So a glance and two clicks. Those two clicks could have been better spent clicking d-scan, and like you said, over the course of a year all those wasted clicks start to add up.
Shrimp And Grittz
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2017-01-31 22:21:51 UTC
Haile Korhal wrote:

We don't really think scanning is all that time consuming, but we wouldn't complain if it were made easier too. Scanning our chain out usually takes anywhere from 20 minutes to 60 minutes depending on how many holes we have and how deep we go. We can have our static rolled and scanned out every 20-40 minutes if we're looking for content. Generally we only go 2 holes deep before returning home unless we're actively hunting.


Yea, I'm pretty sure scanning in Wh's is easier than NullSec for sure. Not sure about highsec/low.


Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#16 - 2017-02-01 01:45:30 UTC
Trevor Dalech wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
And the reason for reading them the sig IDs off your BMs rather than your chain mapper like a normal person is???

Reading them off my always open bookmarks folder takes a glance... a fraction of a second. Reading them off my chain mapper requires I switch to an out of game browser, a glance, and switching back to game. So a glance and two clicks. Those two clicks could have been better spent clicking d-scan, and like you said, over the course of a year all those wasted clicks start to add up.

what's the point of HAVING a mapper if it's not always open?

look, at the end of the day, do it however you want to do it, that's fine. Just don't get upset when someone does it differently than you.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout