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Killmail modification.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#21 - 2017-01-30 18:59:39 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Why is intel a bad thing?



I think it's because it's more difficult to win round 2 with the exact same ship/fit, and someone cares about that.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#22 - 2017-01-30 19:33:06 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Why is intel a bad thing?



intel isn't

free intel is

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#23 - 2017-01-31 03:38:58 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
intel isn't
free intel is

But... but... Just kidding - I agree players can work for a bit of intel.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Major Trant
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2017-01-31 10:16:21 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
...It's why i say leave KMs in the game just remove the api...

It was actually your post (#24) in this thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=509286&p=2#24, where you specifically asked for the removal of all KMs. that motivated me to post this suggestion.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#25 - 2017-01-31 13:34:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Why is intel a bad thing?



intel isn't

free intel is

Please tell me where I get this free intel. Speaking from experience here: I have to work to get my intel from a killboard. I have to search the char, check their history, check what they lose, try to judge whether they cyno drop, check what their gang size is; all that manually in a matter of seconds or minutes before I can decide whether to engage or not, whether I want to present myself as target or just run away because futile fight ahead. Do you have some kind of bot that does this for you so that you can call it "free intel"?

Furthermore, someone had do die to get this intel on the killboards in the first place, which means it's very far from "free". By your logic, the corp name and char names are overpowered free intel as well because I can exactly predict what will happen if I see a certain character or corp/alliance get mentioned in intel chat because I know this character/corp/alliance.

Besides, your "fun argument" has a big drawback. If you only fly things you can really easily replace (frigs or you live in an area that has easy access to a well-stocked market), it may apply. However, replacing a big ratting ship or PVP ship in deep null sec or W-space is a different story. You can't "just get another Rattle/Marauder/BLOPs/Carrier" every day and still make money to actually afford proper PVP ships. You also cannot "just get another PVP BS or BC or cruiser out there. What limits my "fun" is not so much my stats on the KB but rather the expectation that I have to spend hours to get another ship ready to earn money or roam around.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#26 - 2017-01-31 14:35:25 UTC
Major Trant wrote:
I think people saying that KMs should be removed altogether, believe that doing so will end 'evil' ganking but the sov wars and other 'good' pvp will remain unaffected.

Gankers I know do not gank for the kill mails so it is unlikely that removing kill mails would have any affect on them. Removing kill mails will have an affect on those elite war dec PvP players that simply kill to add to their kill boards.

Scipio Artelius wrote:
Why is intel a bad thing?

General Patton once stated that the only thing more important than gaining intel on your enemy is preventing your enemy from gaining intel on you. In essence intel is both good and bad, but giving it away in volumes as part of a system that as a player you cannot op out of is a little on the crazy side.

Rivr Luzade wrote:
Please tell me where I get this free intel. Speaking from experience here: I have to work to get my intel from a killboard. I have to search the char, check their history, check what they lose, try to judge whether they cyno drop, check what their gang size is; all that manually in a matter of seconds or minutes before I can decide whether to engage or not, whether I want to present myself as target or just run away because futile fight ahead. Do you have some kind of bot that does this for you so that you can call it "free intel"?

Furthermore, someone had do die to get this intel on the killboards in the first place, which means it's very far from "free". By your logic, the corp name and char names are overpowered free intel as well because I can exactly predict what will happen if I see a certain character or corp/alliance get mentioned in intel chat because I know this character/corp/alliance.

Not buying into this whole idea that intel via the kill boards is work. Some keystrokes and few mouse clicks and the entire kills / losses history for any character in EvE is on your monitor, on top of that you did not have to do anything actually in game to have access to that information. Maybe point of view but I not only call that free I also call it easy to get. The analysis that happens after you have the information is not relevant here because you would have to do that analysis no matter how you acquired the information.

Did YOU die collecting the information? if you did then there is some cost associated with that information. If you did not die then the costs are not relevant and the information if free to you.

Van Doe wrote:
What bothers me most is the impact it might have on information gathering.
To prove skill ot lack of such you could argue about it.

Kill boards are a terrible way to judge skills of a person or the character.
How many SP a character has and what has been trained does not show on a kill board.
Nothing on a kill board can really tell you how good or how bad a player is. One could argue that a character with more losses than kills is a terrible player but is that really true?
Could it be that they simply enjoy putting themselves on the very edge of their or their ships abilities?
Someone losses a series of ships in low sec, does that really mean they are bad players, or does it indicate they were having a run of bad luck.
At best kill boards can only give you the most elemental of information about a player, the rest you have to determine as time goes on and you fly with them.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#27 - 2017-01-31 15:05:54 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Not buying into this whole idea that intel via the kill boards is work. Some keystrokes and few mouse clicks and the entire kills / losses history for any character in EvE is on your monitor, on top of that you did not have to do anything actually in game to have access to that information. Maybe point of view but I not only call that free I also call it easy to get. The analysis that happens after you have the information is not relevant here because you would have to do that analysis no matter how you acquired the information.

Did YOU die collecting the information? if you did then there is some cost associated with that information. If you did not die then the costs are not relevant and the information if free to you.

A killmail without analysis is not worth anything and does not tell you anything at all, therefore the analysis of any killmail or character is integral part of the work that does not make looking at a killboard "free intel". Furthermore, I absolutely had to do things in EVE to get that information; most importantly of all, I had to pay attention to the game. Calling all the entire process "just a few keystrokes and mouse clicks" is an oversimplification just so that it suits your argument.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#28 - 2017-01-31 15:58:02 UTC
Major Trant wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
...It's why i say leave KMs in the game just remove the api...

It was actually your post (#24) in this thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=509286&p=2#24, where you specifically asked for the removal of all KMs. that motivated me to post this suggestion.


lol yes you can find pleanty of places where i have said this or i have said remove api


while i have no issue with removing them out right I also have no issue with personnel kill mails and see no reason kill mails on that level are a problem. so if you need my actual stance it is simply to remove the kill mail API

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugh Crow-Slave
#29 - 2017-01-31 16:00:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
Not buying into this whole idea that intel via the kill boards is work. Some keystrokes and few mouse clicks and the entire kills / losses history for any character in EvE is on your monitor, on top of that you did not have to do anything actually in game to have access to that information. Maybe point of view but I not only call that free I also call it easy to get. The analysis that happens after you have the information is not relevant here because you would have to do that analysis no matter how you acquired the information.

Did YOU die collecting the information? if you did then there is some cost associated with that information. If you did not die then the costs are not relevant and the information if free to you.

A killmail without analysis is not worth anything and does not tell you anything at all, therefore the analysis of any killmail or character is integral part of the work that does not make looking at a killboard "free intel". Furthermore, I absolutely had to do things in EVE to get that information; most importantly of all, I had to pay attention to the game. Calling all the entire process "just a few keystrokes and mouse clicks" is an oversimplification just so that it suits your argument.



all i have to do to gain a huge amount of intel on some one is


search their name

this will tell me how often they fly solo and how expensive they fit their ships

a quick scroll and i can find what groups he tends to affiliate with how he flies where he lives and how aggressive he is

I then only need to find ~2 loss mails of the ship he is currently in and i have a pretty good chance of knowing exactly how he is fit


yeah so much work

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#30 - 2017-01-31 18:36:48 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Why is intel a bad thing?



intel isn't

free intel is


Yup, and so no to changing killmails until AFK cloaking is addressed.

Now before people lose their ****....

One way to counter AFK cloaking is go look at the guy's killboard to get an idea of when he is active. Removing killmails will be an indirect buff to AFK cloaking which I don't think needs to be buffed.

And technically I don't consider it "free" like local providing free intel. More like, very cheap intel.

And so as to not derail this thread into AFK cloaking nonsense...if you really want to argue it, please use the sticky AFK cloaking thread.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Lugh Crow-Slave
#31 - 2017-01-31 18:51:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
... another way to tell when he is active is for you yourself to be active besides now with alphas if he is doing it right there should be very little intel on zkill

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#32 - 2017-01-31 19:03:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Why is intel a bad thing?



intel isn't

free intel is

"Free Intel" is just a subjective qualifier to be able to dismiss anything someone doesn't like. Not much point really discussing it, since any work at all required to get it and knowledge to interpret it would make it not free, but then if someone doesn't think it's enough work, or enough skill, then it's still "free Intel" and dismissible.

On the plus, the OP suggestion has none and buckly's chance of ever being implemented.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#33 - 2017-01-31 19:40:06 UTC
So CCP should remove local as soon as possible.

After all free intel is bad. Twisted

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#34 - 2017-01-31 21:14:30 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
So CCP should remove local as soon as possible.

After all free intel is bad. Twisted

Don't reinforce their warped ideas. That's what Lugh, CCP and similar people want in the end: Structures for every single little task in space, regardless how mundane it may be. Soon enough you will need to have a structure running in a system to have an immediate local chat, otherwise it's like in w-space. The fuel and ISK waste on those will be outlandish. Roll

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#35 - 2017-01-31 21:51:01 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
So CCP should remove local as soon as possible.

After all free intel is bad. Twisted

Don't reinforce their warped ideas. That's what Lugh, CCP and similar people want in the end: Structures for every single little task in space, regardless how mundane it may be. Soon enough you will need to have a structure running in a system to have an immediate local chat, otherwise it's like in w-space. The fuel and ISK waste on those will be outlandish. Roll


Actually....I agree with them when it comes to intel. Get rid of local and put in the Observatory Array. Sorry.Big smile

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#36 - 2017-01-31 22:09:18 UTC
Looking forward to seeing Perimeters all over the place. -.-

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#37 - 2017-01-31 22:20:34 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
So CCP should remove local as soon as possible.

After all free intel is bad. Twisted

Don't reinforce their warped ideas. That's what Lugh, CCP and similar people want in the end: Structures for every single little task in space, regardless how mundane it may be. Soon enough you will need to have a structure running in a system to have an immediate local chat, otherwise it's like in w-space. The fuel and ISK waste on those will be outlandish. Roll


Actually....I agree with them when it comes to intel. Get rid of local and put in the Observatory Array. Sorry.Big smile


it would be great


and to be fair we only want this in sov null

we also want deployables that counter the structures

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#38 - 2017-01-31 22:24:29 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
So CCP should remove local as soon as possible.

After all free intel is bad. Twisted

Don't reinforce their warped ideas. That's what Lugh, CCP and similar people want in the end: Structures for every single little task in space, regardless how mundane it may be. Soon enough you will need to have a structure running in a system to have an immediate local chat, otherwise it's like in w-space. The fuel and ISK waste on those will be outlandish. Roll


Actually....I agree with them when it comes to intel. Get rid of local and put in the Observatory Array. Sorry.Big smile


it would be great


and to be fair we only want this in sov null

we also want deployables that counter the structures

Considering how terrible it is to see anything important in Perimeter in your overview, you clearly have no idea about the meaning of the word "great". Roll

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#39 - 2017-02-01 10:53:26 UTC
On that note, Rivr, you should have seen the Perimeter cam last night. Oh, that sounds like a good idea.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2017-02-01 11:10:08 UTC
Can't we just have KM's that say 'Someone Died Somewhere...Value: XXXXXXXXXXXXX ISK'?
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