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CONCORD and Illegal Agression

Author
Ajem Hinken
WarFear Gaming
#1 - 2017-01-28 01:38:25 UTC
Is it possible for someone to kill you in high-sec and then leave the system before CONCORD gets there? If so, would CONCORD pursue them into low-sec or null-sec?

Just wondering what people can do in relation to CONCORD so I can come up with some sort of plan or defense or whatever that acknowledges all that could happen to me while I'm out and about.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6875494#post6875494 - Ship mounted explosives. Because explosions and Jita chaos.

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#2 - 2017-01-28 01:48:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
If someone attacks you in hisec without you being flagged in some way they can't avoid the wrath of Concord, it's mechanically impossible because they lose the ability to warp; and to do so is considered an exploit.

Concord don't get involved if you're flagged in some way (as below), they'll consume doughnuts and drink coffee while you burn Twisted

Your opponent can kill you if you're flagged for a limited engagement, if you're flagged as a suspect or criminal you can be shot at freely by anybody, if your corp is the target of a wardec, you can be shot at by the people who declared war on your corp.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Ajem Hinken
WarFear Gaming
#3 - 2017-01-28 01:52:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Ajem Hinken
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
If someone attacks you in hisec without you being flagged in some way they can't avoid the wrath of Concord, to do so is considered to be an exploit.

Concord don't get involved if you're flagged in some way.

Your opponent can kill you if you're flagged for a limited engagement, if you're flagged as a suspect or criminal you can be shot at freely by anybody, if your corp is the target of a wardec, you can be shot at by the people who declared war on your corp..

Really? Even if they legitimately use the game mechanics to get away? Because that's unusual in my eyes.
My philosophy: If someone uses the mechanics of your game to beat the defenses your game has from total anarchy, good for them. In the end, they used a tool you gave them to get past your defenses, so there's no one at fault but you for giving them said tool. Doesn't mean it's your fault they used it that way, just that it's your fault that they COULD use it that way.

And no, I do not hate CCP and would not blame them like some of the ignorant people here would if I got shot to bits, because I likely deserved it.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6875494#post6875494 - Ship mounted explosives. Because explosions and Jita chaos.

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#4 - 2017-01-28 02:01:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Once upon a time you could tank Concord, more recently you could bounce around killing in multiple locations before Concord caught up to you, now they instascram you from off grid, neut you dry in seconds, jam you to hell and wtfbbq-instagib you.

Pop on over to the Crime and Punishment subforum if you want the ins and outs of how Concord and/or Crimewatch work, those guys know the mechanics inside out.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

mkint
#5 - 2017-01-28 03:55:36 UTC
Ajem Hinken wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
If someone attacks you in hisec without you being flagged in some way they can't avoid the wrath of Concord, to do so is considered to be an exploit.

Concord don't get involved if you're flagged in some way.

Your opponent can kill you if you're flagged for a limited engagement, if you're flagged as a suspect or criminal you can be shot at freely by anybody, if your corp is the target of a wardec, you can be shot at by the people who declared war on your corp..

Really? Even if they legitimately use the game mechanics to get away? Because that's unusual in my eyes.
My philosophy: If someone uses the mechanics of your game to beat the defenses your game has from total anarchy, good for them. In the end, they used a tool you gave them to get past your defenses, so there's no one at fault but you for giving them said tool. Doesn't mean it's your fault they used it that way, just that it's your fault that they COULD use it that way.

And no, I do not hate CCP and would not blame them like some of the ignorant people here would if I got shot to bits, because I likely deserved it.

As he said, it's the mechanics. It's meant to be mechanically impossible to evade concord. CCP built it into the game, the intention is for there to be zero loopholes to allow evading concord. Software isn't perfect though. Just like if you figured out an infinite isk/resources bug and used it to your advantage it would be an exploit, it would be the same with evading concord. If, for example, you figured out a way to evade concord, you could sit at an undock and blow everyone up, while anyone who tried to retaliate would be blown up by concord. I hope it's obvious why exploits are bad.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#6 - 2017-01-28 04:11:04 UTC
They "beat" the mechanic by knowing they will lose the ships they are using in the attack. A swarm of 2-10mil isk destroyers will easily kill pretty much anything in highsec. That said for the sake of efficiency on high value ganks some will use ~100m talos, or ~30m stealth bombers, Fewer people involved means less people to share the profits with.

If it were possible to avoid concord, well what would be the point of highsec or concord?

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2017-01-28 04:57:41 UTC
If you could find a way to avoid the wrath of concord it would be considered an exploit and a bannable offense.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

Ajem Hinken
WarFear Gaming
#8 - 2017-01-29 00:37:41 UTC
Second question; will CONCORD defend a citadel if someone attacks it who isn't wardec'd with it?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6875494#post6875494 - Ship mounted explosives. Because explosions and Jita chaos.

Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#9 - 2017-01-29 00:55:25 UTC
Ajem Hinken wrote:
Second question; will CONCORD defend a citadel if someone attacks it who isn't wardec'd with it?

yes.
Same as with POCOs. and POS.

This is the basis for a new host of wholesale corp-swapping and wardec mechanics shenanigans which, to be honest, kind of do my head in.

see also: the Perimeter Citadel Wars.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura

Ajem Hinken
WarFear Gaming
#10 - 2017-01-29 00:58:30 UTC
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Ajem Hinken wrote:
Second question; will CONCORD defend a citadel if someone attacks it who isn't wardec'd with it?

yes.
Same as with POCOs. and POS.

This is the basis for a new host of wholesale corp-swapping and wardec mechanics shenanigans which, to be honest, kind of do my head in.

see also: the Perimeter Citadel Wars.

I assume it's the same with Engineering Platforms or whatever they're called?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6875494#post6875494 - Ship mounted explosives. Because explosions and Jita chaos.

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#11 - 2017-01-29 07:53:39 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Ajem Hinken wrote:
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Ajem Hinken wrote:
Second question; will CONCORD defend a citadel if someone attacks it who isn't wardec'd with it?

yes.
Same as with POCOs. and POS.

This is the basis for a new host of wholesale corp-swapping and wardec mechanics shenanigans which, to be honest, kind of do my head in.

see also: the Perimeter Citadel Wars.

I assume it's the same with Engineering Platforms or whatever they're called?

Since they use the same mechanics as Citadels, I would say yes.


The truth is, there is a constant war going on between the players, who are trying to find every conceivable loophole and min/max possible to gain some kind of advantage (EVE is especially notorious for this... which is why seemingly simple ideas that are proposed in the Features & Ideas subforum tend to get ripped apart)... and the DEVs who want to maintain the spirit of EVE (as a cold, ruthless, player-driven thing) without letting things get too out-of-hand.


The mechanics behind CONCORD (as it is now) are the result of years of player efforts to find ways to "beat them."
Hence, why there is now a blanket ban on avoiding their wrath in any way, shape, or form in the EULA.

Gawd... we could tell you stories!
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#12 - 2017-01-30 13:30:56 UTC
Just bear in mind that CONCORD doesn't 'defend' anything. They won't come to your aid or rescue, and in many instances by the time they do arrive you're often in a pod or a floating corpse.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Memphis Baas
#13 - 2017-01-30 14:39:42 UTC
Ajem Hinken wrote:
Really? Even if they legitimately use the game mechanics to get away?


It's CCP's prerogative to declare something as "exploit" and disallow it. In the case of Concord, they want suicide-ganking to be true to its name and not allow anyone to avoid the "suicide" part.

As mentioned above, historically people have tried and succeeded in avoiding Concord in the past, and each time CCP has made Concord more and more overpowered. 100,000 player base, we will find any loophole or bug, and will always min-max everything. Including how many seconds until Concord arrives, triggering them elsewhere so they'd take longer to warp to the gank location (compared to spawning AT the gank location), and so on. Everything's been tried / done.

So CCP's declared messing with Concord's response in any way an exploit. So even if you find some new "game mechanic", it's an exploit.

Ajem Hinken
WarFear Gaming
#14 - 2017-01-30 20:08:18 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Just bear in mind that CONCORD doesn't 'defend' anything. They won't come to your aid or rescue, and in many instances by the time they do arrive you're often in a pod or a floating corpse.

They do, just not from your own idiocy. As I said somewhere, CONCORD ain't your mother.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6875494#post6875494 - Ship mounted explosives. Because explosions and Jita chaos.

Ajem Hinken
WarFear Gaming
#15 - 2017-01-30 20:22:40 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Ajem Hinken wrote:
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
Ajem Hinken wrote:
Second question; will CONCORD defend a citadel if someone attacks it who isn't wardec'd with it?

yes.
Same as with POCOs. and POS.

This is the basis for a new host of wholesale corp-swapping and wardec mechanics shenanigans which, to be honest, kind of do my head in.

see also: the Perimeter Citadel Wars.

I assume it's the same with Engineering Platforms or whatever they're called?

Since they use the same mechanics as Citadels, I would say yes.


The truth is, there is a constant war going on between the players, who are trying to find every conceivable loophole and min/max possible to gain some kind of advantage (EVE is especially notorious for this... which is why seemingly simple ideas that are proposed in the Features & Ideas subforum tend to get ripped apart)... and the DEVs who want to maintain the spirit of EVE (as a cold, ruthless, player-driven thing) without letting things get too out-of-hand.


The mechanics behind CONCORD (as it is now) are the result of years of player efforts to find ways to "beat them."
Hence, why there is now a blanket ban on avoiding their wrath in any way, shape, or form in the EULA.

Gawd... we could tell you stories!

I would think that you'd simply need to make CONCORD chase you down if you ran. It'd be that simple xD Give their ships higher speeds, align times, warp speeds, and so on than even the tiniest ships and unless you got a ludicrous head start you wouldn't be able to run far.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6875494#post6875494 - Ship mounted explosives. Because explosions and Jita chaos.

Memphis Baas
#16 - 2017-01-30 20:48:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
No, because then people in fast ships aggress Concord on purpose and run away, kiting Concord away from the area. And, again, there's a difference between how fast Concord spawns AT a location vs. how fast Concord warps TO a location from elsewhere.

We've exploited pretty much all possibilities.

Server ticks are 1 second.

Concord responds (supposedly) within:
1.0: 6 seconds
0.9: 6 seconds
0.8: 7 seconds
0.7: 10 seconds
0.6: 14 seconds
0.5: 19 seconds

1 extra second (because the server responded 1 cycle later due to extra load) or 3 extra seconds (because Concord is warping across 56 AU from killing a player on the other side of the solar system) make a HUGE difference to the victim, and to the attackers. 16% - 50% bonus to "damage done before Concord arrives" is a huge boost to suicide ganking, and isn't a change that's "as simple as that".
Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2017-01-30 22:00:54 UTC
Ajem Hinken wrote:
I would think that you'd simply need to make CONCORD chase you down if you ran. It'd be that simple xD Give their ships higher speeds, align times, warp speeds, and so on than even the tiniest ships and unless you got a ludicrous head start you wouldn't be able to run far.

It has been proven to not be that simple. Do not underestimate Eve players - they will find a way to do the impossible. In the end the only somewhat safe way to prevent them from doing something is to declare it an exploit and ban them if they try.
Ajem Hinken
WarFear Gaming
#18 - 2017-01-30 22:08:12 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
Ajem Hinken wrote:
I would think that you'd simply need to make CONCORD chase you down if you ran. It'd be that simple xD Give their ships higher speeds, align times, warp speeds, and so on than even the tiniest ships and unless you got a ludicrous head start you wouldn't be able to run far.

It has been proven to not be that simple. Do not underestimate Eve players - they will find a way to do the impossible. In the end the only somewhat safe way to prevent them from doing something is to declare it an exploit and ban them if they try.

That makes sense. People would probs just warp disrupt CONCORD if the above were the case, assuming they were in a zippy little ship, allowing their buddies to get away.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6875494#post6875494 - Ship mounted explosives. Because explosions and Jita chaos.