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[Proposal] Unlearning skills. SP refunding...
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Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-01-19 19:42:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Vertisce Soritenshi
In light of the recent freakout reactions to CCP's post about the SP Respec idea, I propose the following.

A new option in training called "Unlearn". Instead of "learning" a skill you can choose to "unlearn" one instead. Doing so prevents you from learning anything else during that time on all characters. The refund of SP would be a 1 to 1 ratio and could later be assigned to whatever skill you want.

This woud purely give you the option to remove skills you have no desire of using while expending the exact same amount of time as training any other skill would.

Edit: Change to the proposal for "unlearning" to take half the time of learning so that some time is wasted vs just learning another skill but still leaves the option to unlearn a skill you don't want and refund 100% of the SP.

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Thryson
Riemannian Manifold Torus
#2 - 2012-01-20 06:11:54 UTC
Um creative but did you think about what you said before you said it, if you have to spend time unlearning skills at the same rate you learned them why waste your time just leave the skill maybe far in the future you can use it and just train the skill want to begin with.
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-01-20 13:37:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Vertisce Soritenshi
Duh...nothing gets past you does it?

People want a way to refund SP and others don't...this would satisfy both.

Besides...I am sure it could be made so that unlearning takes half the time of learning or something if it is really that much of a problem. Point is...if you want the ability to revert the clock and correct an error you made in judgment by training a skill then there should be some kind of punishment or downside to doing it. It really shouldn't be any kind of pay ISK, get SP back system.

Perhaps if a skill takes 30 mins to train then it can take 15 minutes to untrain and refund 100% of the SP back...but you still lose time for the untrain when you could have been training something else. Frankly I don't regret a single skill I have trained and wouldn't likely use this for anything other than removing the starter skills I do not care for from my skills list.

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Dirk Smacker
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-01-20 14:01:04 UTC
I think this is worse than purchased respecs.

I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one.
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-01-20 14:07:22 UTC
Dirk Smacker wrote:
I think this is worse than purchased respecs.

Only because you want your SP refund with no downside to it. ISK is easy to get...time is not.

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J Kunjeh
#6 - 2012-01-20 15:11:02 UTC
No respecs unless a skill is removed by CCP, period. Not for ISK, not for time, not for PLEX, not for any reason. If you want SP's in a new skill, train it then.

"The world as we know it came about through an anomaly (anomou)" (The Gospel of Philip, 1-5) 
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2012-01-20 15:26:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Drake Draconis
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
Duh...nothing gets past you does it?

People want a way to refund SP and others don't...this would satisfy both.

Besides...I am sure it could be made so that unlearning takes half the time of learning or something if it is really that much of a problem. Point is...if you want the ability to revert the clock and correct an error you made in judgment by training a skill then there should be some kind of punishment or downside to doing it. It really shouldn't be any kind of pay ISK, get SP back system.

Perhaps if a skill takes 30 mins to train then it can take 15 minutes to untrain and refund 100% of the SP back...but you still lose time for the untrain when you could have been training something else. Frankly I don't regret a single skill I have trained and wouldn't likely use this for anything other than removing the starter skills I do not care for from my skills list.


What is this tripe?

No one would use this..or even support this..because as I said..no one would use this.


Who the hell wants to stop training skills to unlearn skills?

Stop making posts to "just post bad ideas"...they call that trolling.

Your just wasting time and being utterly ridiculous.

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Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-01-20 15:36:51 UTC
J Kunjeh wrote:
No respecs unless a skill is removed by CCP, period. Not for ISK, not for time, not for PLEX, not for any reason. If you want SP's in a new skill, train it then.

Irrational...

Drake Draconis wrote:
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
Duh...nothing gets past you does it?

People want a way to refund SP and others don't...this would satisfy both.

Besides...I am sure it could be made so that unlearning takes half the time of learning or something if it is really that much of a problem. Point is...if you want the ability to revert the clock and correct an error you made in judgment by training a skill then there should be some kind of punishment or downside to doing it. It really shouldn't be any kind of pay ISK, get SP back system.

Perhaps if a skill takes 30 mins to train then it can take 15 minutes to untrain and refund 100% of the SP back...but you still lose time for the untrain when you could have been training something else. Frankly I don't regret a single skill I have trained and wouldn't likely use this for anything other than removing the starter skills I do not care for from my skills list.


What is this tripe?

No one would use this..or even support this..because as I said..no one would use this.


Who the hell wants to stop training skills to unlearn skills?

Stop making posts to "just post bad ideas"...they call that trolling.

Your just wasting time and being utterly ridiculous.

It's called coming up with an alternate idea instead of just mindlessly shooting down other peoples ideas. You might try it sometime.

I would use it...so there is somebody that would use it. Especially if the untrain time was half the train time so I wasn't completely wasting time.

If anybody is trolling...it is you.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2012-01-20 15:40:07 UTC
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
J Kunjeh wrote:
No respecs unless a skill is removed by CCP, period. Not for ISK, not for time, not for PLEX, not for any reason. If you want SP's in a new skill, train it then.

Irrational...

Drake Draconis wrote:
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
Duh...nothing gets past you does it?

People want a way to refund SP and others don't...this would satisfy both.

Besides...I am sure it could be made so that unlearning takes half the time of learning or something if it is really that much of a problem. Point is...if you want the ability to revert the clock and correct an error you made in judgment by training a skill then there should be some kind of punishment or downside to doing it. It really shouldn't be any kind of pay ISK, get SP back system.

Perhaps if a skill takes 30 mins to train then it can take 15 minutes to untrain and refund 100% of the SP back...but you still lose time for the untrain when you could have been training something else. Frankly I don't regret a single skill I have trained and wouldn't likely use this for anything other than removing the starter skills I do not care for from my skills list.


What is this tripe?

No one would use this..or even support this..because as I said..no one would use this.


Who the hell wants to stop training skills to unlearn skills?

Stop making posts to "just post bad ideas"...they call that trolling.

Your just wasting time and being utterly ridiculous.

It's called coming up with an alternate idea instead of just mindlessly shooting down other peoples ideas. You might try it sometime.

I would use it...so there is somebody that would use it. Especially if the untrain time was half the train time so I wasn't completely wasting time.

If anybody is trolling...it is you.


It's called thinking before you post....especially about what people would do and how they would react.

Assuming its ok because you would use it is nothing more than utter selfishness and stupidity on your part.

I dare you to ask everyone around you if they would STOP training and give up that time to unlearn a skill.
How much you wana bet they would either laugh in your face or just flat say no?

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Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-01-20 16:42:36 UTC
Drake Draconis wrote:
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
J Kunjeh wrote:
No respecs unless a skill is removed by CCP, period. Not for ISK, not for time, not for PLEX, not for any reason. If you want SP's in a new skill, train it then.

Irrational...

Drake Draconis wrote:
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
Duh...nothing gets past you does it?

People want a way to refund SP and others don't...this would satisfy both.

Besides...I am sure it could be made so that unlearning takes half the time of learning or something if it is really that much of a problem. Point is...if you want the ability to revert the clock and correct an error you made in judgment by training a skill then there should be some kind of punishment or downside to doing it. It really shouldn't be any kind of pay ISK, get SP back system.

Perhaps if a skill takes 30 mins to train then it can take 15 minutes to untrain and refund 100% of the SP back...but you still lose time for the untrain when you could have been training something else. Frankly I don't regret a single skill I have trained and wouldn't likely use this for anything other than removing the starter skills I do not care for from my skills list.


What is this tripe?

No one would use this..or even support this..because as I said..no one would use this.


Who the hell wants to stop training skills to unlearn skills?

Stop making posts to "just post bad ideas"...they call that trolling.

Your just wasting time and being utterly ridiculous.

It's called coming up with an alternate idea instead of just mindlessly shooting down other peoples ideas. You might try it sometime.

I would use it...so there is somebody that would use it. Especially if the untrain time was half the train time so I wasn't completely wasting time.

If anybody is trolling...it is you.


It's called thinking before you post....especially about what people would do and how they would react.

Assuming its ok because you would use it is nothing more than utter selfishness and stupidity on your part.

I dare you to ask everyone around you if they would STOP training and give up that time to unlearn a skill.
How much you wana bet they would either laugh in your face or just flat say no?

I dare you to use your brain...if you do you might realize that neither you or me have any idea how people would react to it and if they would use it or not.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2012-01-20 17:59:40 UTC
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
I dare you to use your brain...if you do you might realize that neither you or me have any idea how people would react to it and if they would use it or not.


Translation - you realize your wrong and refuse to admit it let alone to bother with the effort of doing your homework.

No one in their right mind would untrain when they could use that time to train a skill.

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Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-01-20 19:42:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Vertisce Soritenshi
Good god you are being narrowminded today...stop and think for a minute.

If you can untrain a skill you don't want and it takes you half the time to untrain as it does to train, that means you are getting the SP back at twice the speed it would take for you to train another skill. It still takes TIME and you lose the skill but you can then use that SP towards the skill you would have otherwise been training.

It's called a ******* compromise. You now have an SP refund option but it does not completely destroy the current system of training = time.

I don't know how I can explain this any simpler...very easy math here...

Maybe you have Caldari Carrier 5 and you want Amarr Carrier 5 instead. You can untrain Caldari Carrier 5 and be refunded ALL the SP, lose the skill and put all that SP into Amarr Carrier 5 but it would still cost you half of the training time. Lose the old skill, gain the new skill, half the training time via untraining old skill.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2012-01-20 20:36:01 UTC
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
Good god you are being narrowminded today...stop and think for a minute.

If you can untrain a skill you don't want and it takes you half the time to untrain as it does to train, that means you are getting the SP back at twice the speed it would take for you to train another skill. It still takes TIME and you lose the skill but you can then use that SP towards the skill you would have otherwise been training.

It's called a ******* compromise. You now have an SP refund option but it does not completely destroy the current system of training = time.

I don't know how I can explain this any simpler...very easy math here...

Maybe you have Caldari Carrier 5 and you want Amarr Carrier 5 instead. You can untrain Caldari Carrier 5 and be refunded ALL the SP, lose the skill and put all that SP into Amarr Carrier 5 but it would still cost you half of the training time. Lose the old skill, gain the new skill, half the training time via untraining old skill.


In that case.

#### NO

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Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-01-20 20:40:32 UTC
Drake Draconis wrote:
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
Good god you are being narrowminded today...stop and think for a minute.

If you can untrain a skill you don't want and it takes you half the time to untrain as it does to train, that means you are getting the SP back at twice the speed it would take for you to train another skill. It still takes TIME and you lose the skill but you can then use that SP towards the skill you would have otherwise been training.

It's called a ******* compromise. You now have an SP refund option but it does not completely destroy the current system of training = time.

I don't know how I can explain this any simpler...very easy math here...

Maybe you have Caldari Carrier 5 and you want Amarr Carrier 5 instead. You can untrain Caldari Carrier 5 and be refunded ALL the SP, lose the skill and put all that SP into Amarr Carrier 5 but it would still cost you half of the training time. Lose the old skill, gain the new skill, half the training time via untraining old skill.


In that case.

#### NO

Well...I can't FORCE you to like the idea. So...thanks for the input.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#15 - 2012-01-20 21:20:16 UTC
EvE is a game of consequences.

Stop trying to avoid them.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#16 - 2012-01-20 21:25:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Only if it take the same amount of time to un-train the skill and you only get back half of the SP. Then there also should be an SP cap in place, say 5 million per year. The cap is the amount you un-train, not what you get back. You then have to pay 1000 x the SP in ISK to use it.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2012-01-20 21:36:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Drake Draconis
Mag's wrote:
Only if it take the same amount of time to un-train the skill and you only get back half of the SP. Then there also should be an SP cap in place, say 5 million per year. The cap is the amount you un-train, not what you get back. You then have to pay 1000 x the SP in ISK to use it.



No...absolutely not....

All this will cause is an getting skills at a fraction of the time it would normally take to train them.

Think about it.

SP's benig remibursed even at half would be a 1:1 ratio towards a skill you want them to be dumped in.

An SP is still an SP....a few thousand SP's goes a long way towards a skill you want...this is bad all over. Even if you get half back.

If it takes half the time to untrain the skill accordnig to mr. "I know better than you do" over there then your gonna get an even bigger percetage increase on the time it takes to train the skill you want.

The only way this will fly in the name of balance is the time it takes to untarin the skill REMVOES the SP from the char...and who the #### would want that when they have skills they rather would be training.


This idea is just stupid beyond all reason...its easily exploitable...the only reason its not balantaly obvious is because its a pain in the @$$ to even do it in the first place.

SP Reimbursement is a sliperly hill we do not want....its only used in server outages and removal of skills.

Anything beyondt hat...is not good. THAT is a majority opinion. Guarenteed.

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Mag's
Azn Empire
#18 - 2012-01-20 21:38:24 UTC
Drake Draconis wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Only if it take the same amount of time to un-train the skill and you only get back half of the SP. Then there also should be an SP cap in place, say 5 million per year. The cap is the amount you un-train, not what you get back. You then have to pay 1000 x the SP in ISK to use it.



No...absolutely not....

Mate, I'm not being serious. I can't see him going for it tbh, just wondered how much he wants it. Twisted

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2012-01-20 21:40:03 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Drake Draconis wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Only if it take the same amount of time to un-train the skill and you only get back half of the SP. Then there also should be an SP cap in place, say 5 million per year. The cap is the amount you un-train, not what you get back. You then have to pay 1000 x the SP in ISK to use it.



No...absolutely not....

Mate, I'm not being serious. I can't see him going for it tbh, just wondered how much he wants it. Twisted


Consider me fooled. Nice play. OopsShockedLol

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Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-01-20 22:16:35 UTC
lol...DENSE! "I" don't want it at all. I don't frankly give two ***** about refunding SP. But it IS something a LOT of people request for ALL the time. And no...I doubt that would be the majority opinion since again...you and I have no idea how other people are going to react. You might as well face it...SP refund is something CCP is thinking about and the CSM did not completely shoot it down. It may very well end up happening...and when it does you will all ***** and whine about it and how it was implemented. Which is why you should be trying to come up with something that WILL work for everybody with minimal impact to the game as it is before it is too late.

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