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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Make more items player made only
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Cryten Jones
Advantage Inc
#1 - 2012-01-20 21:05:46 UTC
So I posted this in some random thread but figured I would post it in the F&I forum to open my self to the inevitable torrent of abuse :-)

I think that the number of currently 'free' items that can't be built by players needs to be heavily reduced to give newer players a path to follow for getting into T2 invention and production.

So how about making the meta items ONLY available via player building via an easier level of invention. Please remember that I am not talking officer or dead space drops here but the 'normal meta' items.

It could go something like this:-

Module I - loot and NPC
Module I Meta1 - Module I + BP + few extra minerals in normal factory
Module I Meta2 - Module I + BP + few extra minerals + 2 or 3 units of PI suff + normal factory
Module I Meta3 - research BPc in normal lab with some items like reports or such trivial stuff and get a BPC
Module I Meta4 - research BPc in normal lab with datacore + items and get a BPC

Naturally there would be a slow building up the required skills also in there giving new players a graded path for getting on the path towards T2 production and also would allow us older players to take up a little of the slack when the 'free meta' get removed.


Anyway, just an idea :-)


-CJ
Serge Bastana
GWA Corp
#2 - 2012-01-21 01:00:16 UTC
Actually it should be meta 0 modules removed from loot drops and only meta 1 and above that is found in missions, etc. This would allow new players to actually make some ISK from building tech 1 modules instead of the market being flooded with them from mission runners or refined for minerals.

For that reason I am unable to support this. Perhaps meta 4, but meta 0 should be given back to low sp manufacturers to get a start in industry.

WoW holds your hand until end game, and gives you a cookie whether you win or lose. EVE not only takes your cookie, but laughs at you for bringing one in the first place...

Valea Silpha
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2012-01-21 03:36:12 UTC
The problem with this is that this wouldn't encourage new people to actually get into invention/industry, it would be immediately ruthlessly exploited by high SP characters who can very quickly turn out waste-free mods in certain high-priced area like BS guns.

Essentially, this would make all meta mods crash in price, which would reduce newbies isk made from missions, and like in every other aspect of industry, the high SP guys would dominate the market and ensure that it is impossible for anyone without perfect skills to turn any kind of profit.

Aside from anything else, it would mean that there would be much much much more fragmentation, and by extension raw chance in the indy tree, and new guys just don't need that. You get a BP for an unpopular mod ? Well that's worthless. And if you get one for a popular mod ? You'll make more by selling the BPC than by building it.
Mary Mercer
Doomheim
#4 - 2012-01-21 07:32:36 UTC
I like it and I think they can find a way to balance it. I think the abundance of meta mods out there sucks.

Officer mods and dead space drops can't be touched though. this would be typical modules only. Missioners can have more wrecked metal scraps to refine down instead of getting the modules directly.
Cryten Jones
Advantage Inc
#5 - 2012-01-21 19:40:33 UTC
Serge Bastana wrote:
Actually it should be meta 0 modules removed from loot drops and only meta 1 and above that is found in missions, etc. This would allow new players to actually make some ISK from building tech 1 modules instead of the market being flooded with them from mission runners or refined for minerals.

For that reason I am unable to support this. Perhaps meta 4, but meta 0 should be given back to low sp manufacturers to get a start in industry.



You are making the exact same point that I am mate... confused.

-CJ
Cryten Jones
Advantage Inc
#6 - 2012-01-21 19:44:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Cryten Jones
Valea Silpha wrote:
The problem with this is that this wouldn't encourage new people to actually get into invention/industry, it would be immediately ruthlessly exploited by high SP characters who can very quickly turn out waste-free mods in certain high-priced area like BS guns.

Essentially, this would make all meta mods crash in price, which would reduce newbies isk made from missions, and like in every other aspect of industry, the high SP guys would dominate the market and ensure that it is impossible for anyone without perfect skills to turn any kind of profit.

Aside from anything else, it would mean that there would be much much much more fragmentation, and by extension raw chance in the indy tree, and new guys just don't need that. You get a BP for an unpopular mod ? Well that's worthless. And if you get one for a popular mod ? You'll make more by selling the BPC than by building it.




I can assure you (as a high SP char) that the low margins annoy the hell out of us also. It's the 0.01 isk market bots and.. more importantly... the 12 year olds that think stuff you mined or get from loot = Free...


Anyway, I would aim for a balance here, don't forget that the target for this path is T2 production and as such making this lower end stuff would be really little interest for characters who can make T2 items because of the margins involved. I would imagine that most high SP players would be making high meta items for use in T2 invention rather than trying to eat the small guys pie.



Also, think you misunderstand me on the production idea. When I say BP I mean the prints we have already.

eg you take a rat dropped Afterburner I and run a job with some minerals and a blueprint and you get back a 'cold Arc Jet' or some such

The idea is to have the complexity escalate over the meta items so that by the time you are facing T2 you are ready for the process and the fact that you need a POS because there are no fricken LAB's anywhere.


-CJ
Feligast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2012-01-21 19:44:49 UTC
Valea Silpha wrote:
The problem with this is that this wouldn't encourage new people to actually get into invention/industry, it would be immediately ruthlessly exploited by high SP characters who can very quickly turn out waste-free mods in certain high-priced area like BS guns.

Essentially, this would make all meta mods crash in price, which would reduce newbies isk made from missions, and like in every other aspect of industry, the high SP guys would dominate the market and ensure that it is impossible for anyone without perfect skills to turn any kind of profit.

Aside from anything else, it would mean that there would be much much much more fragmentation, and by extension raw chance in the indy tree, and new guys just don't need that. You get a BP for an unpopular mod ? Well that's worthless. And if you get one for a popular mod ? You'll make more by selling the BPC than by building it.


Well said.
Valea Silpha
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2012-01-21 20:17:04 UTC
Cryten Jones wrote:

Anyway, I would aim for a balance here, don't forget that the target for this path is T2 production and as such making this lower end stuff would be really little interest for characters who can make T2 items because of the margins involved. I would imagine that most high SP players would be making high meta items for use in T2 invention rather than trying to eat the small guys pie.


-CJ


There is no way to stop people from eating the new guys pie. There just isn't. Certain meta4 mods are more in demand than their t2 versions (1600mm plates, large extenders, MWDs) and with there suddenly being no supply from missions and ratting, the advantage is absolutely going to be for the guys who already know exactly how to turn the best money from invention.

The only place where both meta 4 and t2 mods are in demand is in battleship guns, and since a meta4 gun is worth more than a t2 but would cost less to produce, what do you think people are going to do ? Sell the meta4 or invent the t2 ?
Cryten Jones
Advantage Inc
#9 - 2012-01-21 21:22:00 UTC
Valea Silpha wrote:
Cryten Jones wrote:

Anyway, I would aim for a balance here, don't forget that the target for this path is T2 production and as such making this lower end stuff would be really little interest for characters who can make T2 items because of the margins involved. I would imagine that most high SP players would be making high meta items for use in T2 invention rather than trying to eat the small guys pie.


-CJ


There is no way to stop people from eating the new guys pie. There just isn't. Certain meta4 mods are more in demand than their t2 versions (1600mm plates, large extenders, MWDs) and with there suddenly being no supply from missions and ratting, the advantage is absolutely going to be for the guys who already know exactly how to turn the best money from invention.

The only place where both meta 4 and t2 mods are in demand is in battleship guns, and since a meta4 gun is worth more than a t2 but would cost less to produce, what do you think people are going to do ? Sell the meta4 or invent the t2 ?



I agree with what you are saying and I don't have all the answers, was just trying to think up a way of making the meta module market payer driven rather than 'drop' driven. m4's are only more now because they are ONLY obtainable via drops.

Maybe the answer is the have a negative skill bonus so that as you increase the skills needed for higher level modules it makes it more expensive to build the lower modules...


The idea kinda came from a desire to remove refined loot minerals from the market but no kill the entire martet in the process :-)

Anyway, if it's a bad idea it's a bad idea :-)
-CJ
Serge Bastana
GWA Corp
#10 - 2012-01-22 15:18:39 UTC
Cryten Jones wrote:
Serge Bastana wrote:
Actually it should be meta 0 modules removed from loot drops and only meta 1 and above that is found in missions, etc. This would allow new players to actually make some ISK from building tech 1 modules instead of the market being flooded with them from mission runners or refined for minerals.

For that reason I am unable to support this. Perhaps meta 4, but meta 0 should be given back to low sp manufacturers to get a start in industry.



You are making the exact same point that I am mate... confused.

-CJ




Possibly, but from what I read I think I'm saying the exact opposite, remove the meta 0 from loot drops and make it only player built with only the meta 1 - 4 being in loot drops from NPC's. From what I understand of your idea you want to keep the meta 0 in loot drops while making the meta 1 - 4 items something that can be built by players, which I cannot support. Meta 0 items should be something that lets new players get into industry and trade and anything above that should only be dropped by npc's. To me you it reads like you want it the other way round, sorry if that's not what you're saying, but that's how it reads.

WoW holds your hand until end game, and gives you a cookie whether you win or lose. EVE not only takes your cookie, but laughs at you for bringing one in the first place...

McOboe
Viscosity
#11 - 2012-01-22 18:18:38 UTC
Serge Bastana wrote:



Possibly, but from what I read I think I'm saying the exact opposite, remove the meta 0 from loot drops and make it only player built with only the meta 1 - 4 being in loot drops from NPC's. From what I understand of your idea you want to keep the meta 0 in loot drops while making the meta 1 - 4 items something that can be built by players, which I cannot support. Meta 0 items should be something that lets new players get into industry and trade and anything above that should only be dropped by npc's. To me you it reads like you want it the other way round, sorry if that's not what you're saying, but that's how it reads.


Serge is correct. The OP is suggesting that Meta 1-4 items be manufacturable. Serge is suggesting that Meta 0 items should be removed from loot items, and that Meta 1-4 items continue to be available only through mission-running. I support Serge's idea, but not the OP's. Being able to create Meta 1-4 items would simply mean that everyone would be creating the Meta 4 version of the item. I think removing Meta 0's from loot would benefit producers (even newbie ones) immensely.
Cryten Jones
Advantage Inc
#12 - 2012-01-22 20:08:52 UTC
Hey I'm cool with that. My only question is how does that air with the learning cliff for invention?

Is there any president in EvE for higher skill levels having a -ve affect?

eg. make this skills that give you a better chance at T2 invention an lower ability to produce low end loot?


Anyway, as I said before I was looking for a 'lower the minerals from recycle' AND 'make T1 production / market player activity driven' silver bullet...

Any other ideas?

-CJ
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#13 - 2012-01-22 21:04:55 UTC
To counter act this youll need greater accesibility to the tools.

make the npcs provide the parts peices and data theyll need.

you could take a look at this idea as well https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6625&find=unread

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.