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PIE transporting Slaves within the Republic
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Kazzzi
Heathen Legion
Iron Men of the Hood
#81 - 2012-01-20 13:16:05 UTC
Nick Bete wrote:
or has Heideran's prohibition on slave raiding been suddenly suspended?


Yep, well, can't really suspend something that never went into effect. My RSS contacts informed me that these raids continue, so just to verify for myself I took a trip out to some Republic deadspace and found it beset by an Imperial Navy slave procurement fleet.
Reann Amelana
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#82 - 2012-01-20 13:25:40 UTC
Astrid Stjerna wrote:
Vallek Arkonnis wrote:


For all we know, the TLF knew there were emancipated slaves aboard the Sigil and would rather silence the witnesses under the guise of destroying an Amarrian slaving fleet than let the truth about the Republic's hypocrisy regarding the treatment of their repatriated kin be exposed.


You were the one carrying them through a battlefield, Arkonnis. I daresay that the real hypocrisy in this matter is yours, for claiming to care for your slaves' well-being and then flying them into an active warzone.


I think you will find we were attempting to evacuate them from a war-zone, details are annoying like that aren't they?
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#83 - 2012-01-20 14:52:18 UTC
Nick Bete wrote:
(or has Heideran's prohibition on slave raiding been suddenly suspended?


Heideran is long gone, along with his reformist policies.




Sabik now, Sabik forever
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#84 - 2012-01-20 16:05:16 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:
Nick Bete wrote:
(or has Heideran's prohibition on slave raiding been suddenly suspended?


Heideran is long gone, along with his reformist policies.



Here it is, folks, straight from the source: slave raids are legal once again.

Why am I not surprised it took so long for such a bold-faced admission to occur?

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Kalaratiri
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#85 - 2012-01-20 16:20:47 UTC
Provide proof that they were volunteers.

Not carefully planned and written 'proof', but actual evidence that any one of those people were on that ship willingly.

She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.

This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums.  - CCP Falcon

I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#86 - 2012-01-20 16:30:51 UTC
Kalaratiri wrote:
Provide proof that they were volunteers.

Not carefully planned and written 'proof', but actual evidence that any one of those people were on that ship willingly.


I'll just go and ask one of them to testify and produce their relevant documents.

Oh wait, I can't. You killed them all.


Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#87 - 2012-01-20 16:48:07 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
Kalaratiri wrote:
Provide proof that they were volunteers.

Not carefully planned and written 'proof', but actual evidence that any one of those people were on that ship willingly.


I'll just go and ask one of them to testify and produce their relevant documents.

Oh wait, I can't. You killed them all.



How very convenient.

Are we supposed to believe that the Empire's record-keeping is so incredibly poor that you don't have any documentation on these so-called 'volunteers'?

I have a wonderful summer cottage in Mikramurka to sell you.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#88 - 2012-01-20 16:58:37 UTC
Astrid Stjerna wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
Kalaratiri wrote:
Provide proof that they were volunteers.

Not carefully planned and written 'proof', but actual evidence that any one of those people were on that ship willingly.


I'll just go and ask one of them to testify and produce their relevant documents.

Oh wait, I can't. You killed them all.



How very convenient.



Not for the victims of Minmatar agression.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#89 - 2012-01-20 17:41:37 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
Astrid Stjerna wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
Kalaratiri wrote:
Provide proof that they were volunteers.

Not carefully planned and written 'proof', but actual evidence that any one of those people were on that ship willingly.


I'll just go and ask one of them to testify and produce their relevant documents.

Oh wait, I can't. You killed them all.



How very convenient.



Not for the victims of Minmatar agression.


I wasn't referring to them. I was referring to you.

No paperwork means no accountability, which is very convenient when you want to point fingers at 'Minmatar terrorists' and avoid admitting your own responsibility. Once again, we see that PIE is unwilling to stand up and be accountable to anyone but themselves, and then only when it suits them to do so.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Sakura Imoru
Perkone
Caldari State
#90 - 2012-01-20 17:47:11 UTC
If they would have been on those ships voluntarily they would have been tagged as refugees, not slaves. It's as easy as that.
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#91 - 2012-01-20 18:58:01 UTC
Astrid Stjerna wrote:
Silas Vitalia wrote:
Nick Bete wrote:
(or has Heideran's prohibition on slave raiding been suddenly suspended?


Heideran is long gone, along with his reformist policies.



Here it is, folks, straight from the source: slave raids are legal once again.

Why am I not surprised it took so long for such a bold-faced admission to occur?


I'm not an Imperial Spokesperson. It's merely plain to see that Jamyl presents a quite different and aggressive front with regards to the Reclaiming. Something that Heideran seemed none to keen on, Jamyl has at least embraced in full.


Sabik now, Sabik forever
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#92 - 2012-01-20 19:14:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Astrid Stjerna
Silas Vitalia wrote:

I'm not an Imperial Spokesperson. It's merely plain to see that Jamyl presents a quite different and aggressive front with regards to the Reclaiming. Something that Heideran seemed none to keen on, Jamyl has at least embraced in full.


Heideran made the concession that your current rulers will not: that living beings are not items to be traded.

If the Empire comes into our space again, and tries to enact a new 'Reclaiming', we will respond with force to defend ourselves.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#93 - 2012-01-20 19:52:58 UTC
Does it matter if they were freed or captured slaves?
They were shot down just the same.

Still sitting comfortable on those moral high horses?

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
Vallek Arkonnis
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#94 - 2012-01-20 19:54:46 UTC
Sakura Imoru wrote:
If they would have been on those ships voluntarily they would have been tagged as refugees, not slaves. It's as easy as that.


Like it would have mattered to the TLF... The manifest was only known AFTER the transport was destroyed. It could have been carrying schoolchildren for all they knew. How they managed to destroy an entire fleet yet obviously lack the ability to immobilize a transport, or hell, even operate a cargo scanner is beyond me. It must be that when they see gold armor they start shooting indiscriminately.

Let's assume for a moment that the TLF is right; that PIE was conducting a slave raid and were caught. Again, why was the transport destroyed? No one sees the disconnect here? They see a PIE fleet with a transport, assume it's carrying newly acquired Matari meant for slave labor and they decide to blow it up anyway?

Don't tell me that if the TLF were notified that the transport was carrying civilians voluntarily returning to the Empire that it wouldn't have been fired upon. Obviously if they're willing to fire upon a vessel carrying what (allegedly) they thought were kidnapped Republic citizens, nothing stops them from attacking a vessel carrying Matari wanting to return to the Empire. If anything, it sounds like a motive.

They shot first, asked questions second. Their own reasoning still doesn't excuse or even partially mitigate their responsibility for this tragedy.
Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#95 - 2012-01-20 20:06:56 UTC
Vallek Arkonnis wrote:
Like it would have mattered to the TLF... The manifest was only known AFTER the transport was destroyed. It could have been carrying schoolchildren for all they knew. How they managed to destroy an entire fleet yet obviously lack the ability to immobilize a transport, or hell, even operate a cargo scanner is beyond me. It must be that when they see gold armor they start shooting indiscriminately.

Let's assume for a moment that the TLF is right; that PIE was conducting a slave raid and were caught. Again, why was the transport destroyed? No one sees the disconnect here? They see a PIE fleet with a transport, assume it's carrying newly acquired Matari meant for slave labor and they decide to blow it up anyway?

Don't tell me that if the TLF were notified that the transport was carrying civilians voluntarily returning to the Empire that it wouldn't have been fired upon. Obviously if they're willing to fire upon a vessel carrying what (allegedly) they thought were kidnapped Republic citizens, nothing stops them from attacking a vessel carrying Matari wanting to return to the Empire. If anything, it sounds like a motive.

They shot first, asked questions second. Their own reasoning still doesn't excuse or even partially mitigate their responsibility for this tragedy.


Quite why either side persists in broadcasting to the IGS bemuses me. From where I sit, in any given topic between the assorted Matari loyalists and PIE, everyone's too busy trying to score points to notice the proliferation of pots and kettles.

If Pilot Underking hadn't made the first statement, we'd no doubt have one of Thgil's rants about Matari disregard for the lives of their own people in its place, followed by an identical series of responses on both sides. Entertaining, more than a little depressing, and the only thing to be produced by these idiot wars other than casualty figures and arms manufacturer profits.

I'd ask when Concord plans to scrap the whole concept, but it's patently obvious they won't. It's far too good a game for keeping us busy, never mind what the poor souls trying to live in the warzone go through...
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#96 - 2012-01-20 20:12:20 UTC
Astrid Stjerna wrote:


Heideran made the concession that your current rulers will not: that living beings are not items to be traded.



I'm pretty sure that there was a vibrant slave trade throughout Heideran VII's reign.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#97 - 2012-01-20 20:52:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Astrid Stjerna
Rodj Blake wrote:
Astrid Stjerna wrote:


Heideran made the concession that your current rulers will not: that living beings are not items to be traded.



I'm pretty sure that there was a vibrant slave trade throughout Heideran VII's reign.


I stand corrected; my words were badly-chosen.

Heideran understood that while salvation is a worthy goal, not all methods of salvation are acceptable; certainly, he knew that by raiding another nation, that nation would turn against the message that the raiders were attempting to spread. That was a major element of the Pax Amarria (which, in point of fact, I've been reading to better understand my wife's culture and upbringing), which Heideran's descendants seem to have forgotten.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#98 - 2012-01-20 21:04:35 UTC
It's more accurate to say that Heideran VII put a stop to slave raiding while he was in power.

As far as I know, and despite what Lady Vitalia claims, no head-of-state since then has reversed that decision.

Then again, its always been legal to take prisoners of war from within the Empire's borders. I'm curious why PIE chose to go with the justification they did rather than the one that would have put them entirely within the clear by the only law that matters to them.

Then again, I am curious as to why PIE is doing a lot of things they have chosen to do of late. So are some members of PIE, from what I have heard.
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#99 - 2012-01-20 21:55:02 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:

As far as I know, and despite what Lady Vitalia claims, no head-of-state since then has reversed that decision.


I never said it was reversed, but we can infer a few policy difference from the differing tones of Heideran and Jamyl's reign.

Sabik now, Sabik forever
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#100 - 2012-01-20 21:58:27 UTC
Astrid Stjerna wrote:
That was a major element of the Pax Amarria (which, in point of fact, I've been reading to better understand my wife's culture and upbringing), which Heideran's descendants seem to have forgotten.


You people always take the short view.

A more astute observation would be that -Heideran- was a very brief aberration in the long line of Imperial rulers following essentially the same unchanged agenda for the last thousand years.

Sabik now, Sabik forever