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Cynos - It's time to talk about it.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
#121 - 2017-01-28 22:12:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Borat Guereen wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

can both large and small groups use them effectively? yes

do they overwhelmingly advantage one size over the other? no each size can use them in different ways to great effect

all that sounds pretty damn balanced to me.


We will agree to disagree.

You refuse to take in account the fact that moving larger number of ships instantaneously through distances with one bridging ship does not even require scaling up the number of bridging ship according to numbers. As it is, it exponentially increases the benefit of cynos to larger groups, with the means to field instantly many ships across regions.

except
a) with fatigue you can no longer do this over vast distances quickly.

b) if you had actually done anything with this you would know it does require scaling up your bridging ship either in type or number

c) your ideas do not make it any harder at all fro large groups to do this only more tedious but does make it much harder for small groups.

Quote:

Fortunately, those reading this can make up their mind themselves and have the possibility to express their opinion through CSM votes.

I would not run for CSM if I did not believe a high number of smaller group and solo players are also lurking on this forum, like I used to before deciding to run. Like me they could be fed up by the control of the larger groups over the features of a game we all share, favoring their play-style over more independent play-styles.

I don't think you have a single idea about small groups. Small groups can now field capitals. small groups can now get their hands on supers with relative ease. small groups can now hold sov (we held 6 systems with 10 active pilots and only left because we found null dull).

Small groups make excellent use of cynos to counter large groups. Your ideas that make cynos so much harder to use ONLY pushes them into something that is for large groups only it does not balance their use.


Quote:

I wish posting on forums had the same requirements than being a candidate for CSM now have, i.e. you could only post with your most well known alt instead of alts so as to see better where argumentations really comes from.


guess what this is my main toon buddy. a toon that has spent the last several years training up newbros and ceos of small corps and currently runs a small FW corp

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugh Crow-Slave
#122 - 2017-01-28 22:28:29 UTC
speaking of my time in null i just remembered how much SOLO players use cynos to screw with even the largest groups in eve i'm sure our lovely goon Danika Princip can attest to the efficacy of a solo player with a cyno alt in null.

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#123 - 2017-01-29 00:59:07 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

b) if you had actually done anything with this you would know it does require scaling up your bridging ship either in type or number


My comments about this quote and the next one are aimed at Borat Guereen and Gungnir Winder.

Yup. If you want to bridge multiple fleets simultaneously you need to have multiple titans as the titan can only be in 1 fleet at a time. You could try to bridge fleets simultaneously, but then there are additional problems...for example what if the second fleet is full, no you have to kick someone then let the titan in. So you really can't bridge simultaneously without multiple titans.

Quote:
c) your ideas do not make it any harder at all fro large groups to do this only more tedious but does make it much harder for small groups.


Can one of you two please address this? It has been brought up again and again and we get, "Derp, they drop rorquals now...derp."

Borat Guereen wrote:

Fortunately, those reading this can make up their mind themselves and have the possibility to express their opinion through CSM votes.

I would not run for CSM if I did not believe a high number of smaller group and solo players are also lurking on this forum, like I used to before deciding to run. Like me they could be fed up by the control of the larger groups over the features of a game we all share, favoring their play-style over more independent play-styles.


I love the nonsense here, "I know I am right because I speak for the unseen and unheard masses that obviously agree with me." Jesus the hubris here is off the freaking charts. Climb down off your high horse dude, the atmosphere is thin that far up you could hurt yourself.

Moreover, being a larger groups should have some advantages, but smaller groups can have their advantages. It is not uncommon for small group of well skilled (both in terms of SP and game knowledge/ability) can punch above their weight class.

Further, this notion of "large" and "small" what exactly does that mean? Okay, sure Goons are "large" but what about PL? By comparison they are small? What about other small groups? Would Black Legion have been considered "small" or "large" or is this like pornography? You know it when you see it or in the case of Borat Guereen it is when it is convenient?

Seriously you two guys are really laughable throwing around all these subjective terms and not even mounting cogent or coherent argument.

Hell, I'd love to see you guys respond to Rivr's comments about the Rorquals...that people are dropping them not because of cynos, but because of the changes to Rorquals. In other words, you have cause and effect wrong on that one.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#124 - 2017-01-29 01:03:25 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
speaking of my time in null i just remembered how much SOLO players use cynos to screw with even the largest groups in eve i'm sure our lovely goon Danika Princip can attest to the efficacy of a solo player with a cyno alt in null.


Ghost riders anyone?

Of course, I suppose that PL would be "large". Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Lugh Crow-Slave
#125 - 2017-01-29 01:23:03 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
speaking of my time in null i just remembered how much SOLO players use cynos to screw with even the largest groups in eve i'm sure our lovely goon Danika Princip can attest to the efficacy of a solo player with a cyno alt in null.


Ghost riders anyone?

Of course, I suppose that PL would be "large". Roll



true but pl wasn't the only one to use this and it did not take a lot of people

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Violet Crumble
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#126 - 2017-01-29 01:44:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Violet Crumble
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
speaking of my time in null i just remembered how much SOLO players use cynos to screw with even the largest groups in eve i'm sure our lovely goon Danika Princip can attest to the efficacy of a solo player with a cyno alt in null.

Not only to screw with the largest groups, but also to avoid the largest groups.

As a solo hauler/JF pilot and nullsec industrialist, the proposals listed in this thread would do nothing but hurt my style of play as below:

Jokes asides, I strongly believe we finally need a role ship for Cynos. Now more than ever as capitals are very common, as there are more newbros and most importantly to keep the subcap pvp healthy, which is the core of this game.
...
...
I'm saying that cynos should be lit by a dedicated ship.

Currently to deliver into null, either my for industry activities, or to move stuff for someone else, I can put a cyno alt in an interceptor, fly anywhere I need with a cyno, then pick up a rookie ship and fuel, light a cyno and jump in freight.

The need to use a dedicated cyno ship would be both more costly and slower and then not necessarily available everywhere, since the cyno alt would have to fly it in, rather than an interceptor, often getting caught by bubbles or lowsec camps and killed before arrival.

That would require, either trying to buy a new ship if the pod escapes, or making a new trip again and rescheduling if the camp can't be avoided.

The issue wouldn't affect large groups that have all of their own internal logistics divisions. It would hit the smaller Alliances and solo NPC nullsec players that rely more on third-party hauling support.

I thought something like command destroyers, maybe more tanky and a bit faster.

Command Destroyers run at about the 50 million ISK mark just for the hull. Requiring that, just to move logistics around would just compound the previous point, especially at the loss rate of cynos in some regions.

Some delivery locations can't be reached in a single jump, which potentially increases the cost of delivery by 200 million or more (to cover cynos in and out again, because an immobilised cyno ship is very easily and very often killed).

Funtime Factory - We put the fun back in funtime
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#127 - 2017-01-29 01:52:56 UTC
Violet Crumble wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
speaking of my time in null i just remembered how much SOLO players use cynos to screw with even the largest groups in eve i'm sure our lovely goon Danika Princip can attest to the efficacy of a solo player with a cyno alt in null.

Not only to screw with the largest groups, but also to avoid the largest groups.

As a solo hauler/JF pilot and nullsec industrialist, the proposals listed in this thread would do nothing but hurt my style of play as below:

Jokes asides, I strongly believe we finally need a role ship for Cynos. Now more than ever as capitals are very common, as there are more newbros and most importantly to keep the subcap pvp healthy, which is the core of this game.
...
...
I'm saying that cynos should be lit by a dedicated ship.

Currently to deliver into null, either my for industry activities, or to move stuff for someone else, I can put a cyno alt in an interceptor, fly anywhere I need with a cyno, then pick up a rookie ship and fuel, light a cyno and jump in freight.

The need to use a dedicated cyno ship would be both more costly and slower and then not necessarily available everywhere, since the cyno alt would have to fly it in, rather than an interceptor, often getting caught by bubbles or lowsec camps and killed before arrival.

That would require, either trying to buy a new ship if the pod escapes, or making a new trip again and reschduling if the camp can't be avoided.

The issue wouldn't affect large groups that have all of their own internal logistics divisions. It would hit the smaller Alliances and solo NPC nullsec players that rely more on third-party hauling support.

I thought something like command destroyers, maybe more tanky and a bit faster.

Command Destroyers run at about the 50 million ISK mark just for the hull. Requiring that, just to move logistics around would just compound the previous point, especially at the loss rate of cynos in some regions; and some delivery locations can't be reached in a single jump, which potentially increases the cost of delivery by 200 million or more (to cover cynos in and out again).


I'm sorry, but you have to get screwed over by Borat and Gungnir because they don't like the "large" groups and don't care about you.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Borat Guereen
Doomheim
#128 - 2017-01-29 09:30:49 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:


I'm sorry, but you have to get screwed over by Borat and Gungnir because they don't like the "large" groups and don't care about you.


Argueing about cynos with a player that has a toon playing since 2007 and another that has been FC with Bob.
No surprises there that we won't find much common grounds....

Candidate for CSM XII
Lugh Crow-Slave
#129 - 2017-01-29 09:38:15 UTC
Borat Guereen wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


I'm sorry, but you have to get screwed over by Borat and Gungnir because they don't like the "large" groups and don't care about you.


Argueing about cynos with a player that has a toon playing since 2007 and another that has been FC with Bob.
No surprises there that we won't find much common grounds....




your right we have just been around to long to have an understanding of the impacts that your ideas would have

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Borat Guereen
Doomheim
#130 - 2017-01-29 09:47:07 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Borat Guereen wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


I'm sorry, but you have to get screwed over by Borat and Gungnir because they don't like the "large" groups and don't care about you.


Argueing about cynos with a player that has a toon playing since 2007 and another that has been FC with Bob.
No surprises there that we won't find much common grounds....




your right we have just been around to long to have an understanding of the impacts that your ideas would have


I think it is rather that you have been around so long that you are now unable to see the game and its features in the way newer players that are not looking to be funneled into the larger groups controlled by the older players may perceive them.

In any case, we'll simply move on from there.

Candidate for CSM XII
Lugh Crow-Slave
#131 - 2017-01-29 09:50:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Borat Guereen wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Borat Guereen wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


I'm sorry, but you have to get screwed over by Borat and Gungnir because they don't like the "large" groups and don't care about you.


Argueing about cynos with a player that has a toon playing since 2007 and another that has been FC with Bob.
No surprises there that we won't find much common grounds....




your right we have just been around to long to have an understanding of the impacts that your ideas would have


I think it is rather that you have been around so long that you are now unable to see the game and its features in the way newer players that are not looking to be funneled into the larger groups controlled by the older players may perceive them.

In any case, we'll simply move on from there.





your right the time i spent the last few years training new players... to be ceos... of newplayer corps hasn't given me any idea what the game is like for new players and not being an active member of a group with more than 30 active pilots since 2012 i can't even fathom what its like not to be funneled into a large groupRoll

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#132 - 2017-01-29 09:57:34 UTC
Borat Guereen wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Borat Guereen wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


I'm sorry, but you have to get screwed over by Borat and Gungnir because they don't like the "large" groups and don't care about you.


Argueing about cynos with a player that has a toon playing since 2007 and another that has been FC with Bob.
No surprises there that we won't find much common grounds....




your right we have just been around to long to have an understanding of the impacts that your ideas would have


I think it is rather that you have been around so long that you are now unable to see the game and its features in the way newer players that are not looking to be funneled into the larger groups controlled by the older players may perceive them.

In any case, we'll simply move on from there.



Maybe it is that you just don't know what you are talking about and are spewing a lot of subjective Bravo Sierra. For example, are Rooks & Kings a "large" or "small" group who have quite effectively used titans and cynos? How big does a group have to be to "large". What is a "small" group?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Lugh Crow-Slave
#133 - 2017-01-29 10:02:45 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Borat Guereen wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Borat Guereen wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


I'm sorry, but you have to get screwed over by Borat and Gungnir because they don't like the "large" groups and don't care about you.


Argueing about cynos with a player that has a toon playing since 2007 and another that has been FC with Bob.
No surprises there that we won't find much common grounds....




your right we have just been around to long to have an understanding of the impacts that your ideas would have


I think it is rather that you have been around so long that you are now unable to see the game and its features in the way newer players that are not looking to be funneled into the larger groups controlled by the older players may perceive them.

In any case, we'll simply move on from there.



Maybe it is that you just don't know what you are talking about and are spewing a lot of subjective Bravo Sierra. For example, are Rooks & Kings a "large" or "small" group who have quite effectively used titans and cynos? How big does a group have to be to "large". What is a "small" group?



you want to know what makes it even better? you started in 07 and that makes you to old but him starting in 09 gives him a fresh perspective

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#134 - 2017-01-29 10:18:43 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Borat Guereen wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:



your right we have just been around to long to have an understanding of the impacts that your ideas would have


I think it is rather that you have been around so long that you are now unable to see the game and its features in the way newer players that are not looking to be funneled into the larger groups controlled by the older players may perceive them.

In any case, we'll simply move on from there.



Maybe it is that you just don't know what you are talking about and are spewing a lot of subjective Bravo Sierra. For example, are Rooks & Kings a "large" or "small" group who have quite effectively used titans and cynos? How big does a group have to be to "large". What is a "small" group?



you want to know what makes it even better? you started in 07 and that makes you to old but him starting in 09 gives him a fresh perspective


And the end of '07. As in like a couple of weeks. So I have been playing for what a year or more than him....yeah big difference.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Lugh Crow-Slave
#135 - 2017-01-29 10:23:24 UTC
i'm starting to think this guy is so afraid of "agendas" he has started seeing them in anyone who doesn't agree with him

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#136 - 2017-01-29 10:33:51 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
i'm starting to think this guy is so afraid of "agendas" he has started seeing them in anyone who doesn't agree with him


However, he has one of his own. Go figure.

And in reading his agenda it is schizophrenic and thoroughly muddled if not outright incoherent. Like wanting to some how expose alt characters to better reveal the power of older characters, but at the same time mucking up the API with some sort of "Fog of War" Bravo Sierra. And never mind that the API is a summary of a character's activities in game.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Admiral Sarah Solette
Lmao Ty For Structure
#137 - 2017-01-30 14:10:48 UTC
Borat Guereen wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Borat Guereen wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


I'm sorry, but you have to get screwed over by Borat and Gungnir because they don't like the "large" groups and don't care about you.


Argueing about cynos with a player that has a toon playing since 2007 and another that has been FC with Bob.
No surprises there that we won't find much common grounds....




your right we have just been around to long to have an understanding of the impacts that your ideas would have


I think it is rather that you have been around so long that you are now unable to see the game and its features in the way newer players that are not looking to be funneled into the larger groups controlled by the older players may perceive them.

In any case, we'll simply move on from there.


You should probably just stop going for CSM. Your platform is a joke that nobody regardless of alliance size agrees with. You lie through your teeth trying to insinuate that you're in it for the 'little guy's, while really you're just hindering them.

Plus using the argument of 'hurf durf I'm a 07bittervet™' just makes your entire plight even more pathetic.

And again as others have already pointed out multiple times throughout this thread, you and OP have nothing in the way of good reasoning behind your ideas other than 'cynos bad because I say'. Your entire campaign is just embarrassing.