These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

PvP: medium Drones against Cruisers
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Denuo Secus
#1 - 2012-01-20 01:41:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Denuo Secus
Hi,

I had a fight against a Thorax lately - me in a Vexor using Hammerheads II. After checking the game logs I noticed my Hammerheads placed some well aimed and excellent hits but more than 50% they missed completely. I guess this was when he switched his MWD off.

Would you say medium drones are bad against Cruiser size? I really thought they were designed to hit cruisers. But if not...should I switch to Hobgobs maybe? Or rather Valkyrie?

Thanks for any hint.
Drug Dealah
Doomheim
#2 - 2012-01-20 09:19:01 UTC
Hammerhead's tracking is terrible, switch to valkyrie.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2012-01-20 14:54:11 UTC
Drug Dealah wrote:
Hammerhead's tracking is terrible, switch to valkyrie.


Yeah, this is a good idea against low-sig, fast cruisers.
Alternatively, web/TP them moar?
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#4 - 2012-01-20 18:44:34 UTC
Hammerheads seem to have just the right combination of speed and tracking to be utter failures against particular ships. I'm thinking in your case Ogres would have actually performed better.

But yes, Valkyries are awesome, and Vespas are good, too (if you want more tank and damage than Valks and don't care about speed that much).

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-01-20 19:17:24 UTC
Has anyone ever done a really detailed analysis of how drones perform against each ship class?

A long time ago there was a lot of talk about Drone Navigation actually decreasing damage, because it made drones orbit faster and therefore loose hits due to tracking.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#6 - 2012-01-20 19:21:14 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Has anyone ever done a really detailed analysis of how drones perform against each ship class?

A long time ago there was a lot of talk about Drone Navigation actually decreasing damage, because it made drones orbit faster and therefore loose hits due to tracking.


Drones track really really well. I'd be surprised if the problem is actually tracking - its more likely to be the range problem that certain NPCs have. If Amamake is as quiet as its been lately I'll take a stab at this tonight. I figure between Hahbs and Capt we've probably got enough ship types to get some kind of reasonable numbers out. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#7 - 2012-01-20 19:25:15 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Has anyone ever done a really detailed analysis of how drones perform against each ship class?

A long time ago there was a lot of talk about Drone Navigation actually decreasing damage, because it made drones orbit faster and therefore loose hits due to tracking.

It's really difficult to do a very detailed analysis, because drones are fast and each ship within a class behaves differently (in addition to drones behaving differently too). Throw in the fitting of the ship being droned and you get a really complex situation that changes dynamically every time. Very hard to analyze.

For example: I could claim that my Retribution is strong against drones. It has the worst tracking any short range weapon system has to offer (Medium Pulse Laser II with Scorch S) and yet I have no problems 2-shotting drones... because I run a 20km kiting fit with a MWD. Regular "tank" Retribution fits would be significantly poorer at dealing with drones.

Similarly, heavier drones might perform better against smaller ships sometimes, as the light drones pulse their MWD, while the larger ones just keep it on constantly, which gives them better overall range control.

I wish there were a good analysis, but it would be a friggin research paper!

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2012-01-20 19:40:28 UTC
Drug Dealah wrote:
Hammerhead's tracking is terrible, switch to valkyrie.

and they say gallente is the drone race lolz winmatar wins this too
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#9 - 2012-01-20 20:36:00 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Has anyone ever done a really detailed analysis of how drones perform against each ship class?

A long time ago there was a lot of talk about Drone Navigation actually decreasing damage, because it made drones orbit faster and therefore loose hits due to tracking.

It's really difficult to do a very detailed analysis, because drones are fast and each ship within a class behaves differently (in addition to drones behaving differently too). Throw in the fitting of the ship being droned and you get a really complex situation that changes dynamically every time. Very hard to analyze.

For example: I could claim that my Retribution is strong against drones. It has the worst tracking any short range weapon system has to offer (Medium Pulse Laser II with Scorch S) and yet I have no problems 2-shotting drones... because I run a 20km kiting fit with a MWD. Regular "tank" Retribution fits would be significantly poorer at dealing with drones.

Similarly, heavier drones might perform better against smaller ships sometimes, as the light drones pulse their MWD, while the larger ones just keep it on constantly, which gives them better overall range control.

I wish there were a good analysis, but it would be a friggin research paper!


Lets start by enumerating the interesting cases:
- All drones
- Target ship MWD-orbiting at range and (no ewar | webbed | painted )
- Target ship AB-orbiting at range and (no ewar | webbed | painted )
- Target ship sitting still and (no ewar | webbed | painted )

Interesting target ships:
- Inty (Ranis)
- Assault Frig (Harpy, I'm sure)
- HAC (Deimos?)
- BC (Brutix probably)
- BS (Hype probably)
- Carrier (Niddy, gonna neglect the MWD and AB business here........ -_- )

I should ensure to normalize for resists.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#10 - 2012-01-20 20:49:53 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

Lets start by enumerating the interesting cases:
- All drones
- Target ship MWD-orbiting at range and (no ewar | webbed | painted )
- Target ship AB-orbiting at range and (no ewar | webbed | painted )
- Target ship sitting still and (no ewar | webbed | painted )

Interesting target ships:
- Inty (Ranis)
- Assault Frig (Harpy, I'm sure)
- HAC (Deimos?)
- BC (Brutix probably)
- BS (Hype probably)
- Carrier (Niddy, gonna neglect the MWD and AB business here........ -_- )

I should ensure to normalize for resists.

-Liang


You forgot:
- Interfering bastards because it sounds like you're doing this in Amamake Twisted

Now, for some real comments. The Taranis might be a bad example since it is by far the slowest of interceptors. You can use it as an example of a combat ceptor, but use a Stiletto or Ares, too. Those guys can often outrun the drones, and between the speed, their tracking bonuses, and mwd-bloomed drones, they are also VERY good at shooting down the drones too (Raptor and Malediction work as well, but are not quite as fast).

HAC: You could also try a Vagabond, considering its popularity. I would volunteer my Vagabond, but ~Heretics~.

I'm looking forward to any interesting things you turn up, particularly about Acolyte II performance.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#11 - 2012-01-20 20:52:09 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
I would volunteer my Vagabond, but ~Heretics~.


I can't speak for EU Tz, but I can speak for late nights (Late US, AUS TZ). When its Ahrieman, Hahbs, Me, Capt, and maybe a couple others - we be honest brosefs looking for a ~good fight~. If we tell you we're not going to kill you, we ******* mean it. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#12 - 2012-01-20 21:01:24 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
I would volunteer my Vagabond, but ~Heretics~.


I can't speak for EU Tz, but I can speak for late nights (Late US, AUS TZ). When its Ahrieman, Hahbs, Me, Capt, and maybe a couple others - we be honest brosefs looking for a ~good fight~. If we tell you we're not going to kill you, we ******* mean it. :)

-Liang

Hmm come to think of it, I've been ganked by you guys plenty of times, but I don't think I've ever had the opportunity to test your eHonor. I suppose I can risk a ship or two FOR SCIENCE.

Eve-mail me if you'd like me to join, possibly ahead of time and with an approximate Eve time so I don't get busy with other stuff.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#13 - 2012-01-20 21:04:42 UTC
Heh, well I don't expect to need your help - Amamake has been boring as **** late nights lately. We'll either end up roaming or I'll convince Hahbs and Capt to help me out with ~science~. All we need now is Hesp to come back and I'll resurrect Parsec Flux. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#14 - 2012-01-20 21:08:54 UTC
Alright, then. Once recruitment for Rifterlings picks up we might try to make Amamake more interesting for you but as it stands now this is pretty much all we can muster.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#15 - 2012-01-20 21:12:19 UTC
rofl - you should DM me the pw for your kb. You guys seem like cool guys. Wanna try a Wolf (you) vs Taranis (me) tonight in Amamake? Maybe Rifter vs Merlin?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-01-22 00:32:18 UTC
So Liang, did you come up with anything interesting?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#17 - 2012-01-22 01:40:13 UTC
Last night I discovered that I cannot in fact solo 2 drakes at the same time in a Taranis. It wasn't for lack of chasing the engagement down and trying.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Valea Silpha
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2012-01-22 02:32:20 UTC
Tbh this isn't something that should need actual field testing.

Given that we know all of the math behind dps, tracking, signature, and we know all the stats for everything there is no reason why we can't just attack it from that angle, and then figure out if that is what is genuinely happening in the game.

It used to be said that against an MWDing frig, berzerkers were the best drones to use, because they would always MWD towards the target and be firing with very minimal transversal. I dunno how true that ever was, but it certainly used to be said.

As for medium drones... it all depends on speed. If a frig can outrun hammers, then yeah, the damage is going to suck, and valks might help that. But then again, almost nothing that you would launch mediums at (anything thats not an inty) probably can't outrun, or at least can't once tackled. So I dunno.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#19 - 2012-01-22 07:14:45 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Last night I discovered that I cannot in fact solo 2 drakes at the same time in a Taranis.


Science!
Biced
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2012-01-22 10:41:19 UTC
bad drone skills = bad damage =p

last night some ogre IIs were able to track my gila just fine.
though the thanny lost some of hem to sentry guns.
so he thought it will be a good idea to fit a full rack of neuts and use fighter.
they also seemed to track my silly gila just fine, when i was orbiting him. but then i stoped and dps droped by like 40%.

@ liang i bet you 100mil isk that ****** thanny pilot will 1v1 you on the station. so if you have a fleet of dreads hit me up lol
12Next page